Ben Stokes & Gus Atkinson dropped, Joe Root takes over as captain | Sky Sports Cricket Podcast

Well, hello and welcome to the Sky Sports Korea podcast.My name's Ian Ward.I'm joined by two former England captains, Nasser Hussain and Michael Atherton.Now, a lot of deliberations have been going on at ECB Towers after the events of Monday morning.involving Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson.We had a statement at the time, we've had precious little since then, but what we have had at three o 'clock today as we record this is an official statement and a squad release for the second Test match against New Zealand at the Oval.

I'll read it out.the team as interim captain.Joffre Archer is back in the squad and Essex batter Jordan Cox.They have been added.Nass, come to you first.When you first saw the news unfold about what did or didn't happen on Monday morning, the early hours of Monday morning, what was your initial reaction?

Obviously, huge shock and surprise.So soon after a reset and we'd seen the reset on the pitch, over the previous three or four days, but the main reset also was off the pitch and some of the shenanigans and antics in Australia and New Zealand before they were going to have a reset.And even though that happened on the pitch, it didn't.Now, if you view it as without any kind of context, forget the context of the winter.Two England cricketers went out.having won a test match and played brilliantly, beat New Zealand under immense pressure after everything that happened, and they stayed out till one o 'clock at night.

It's happened in the history of the game, Ian.You know that.Michael knows that.Every cricketer that's played in England knows exactly what happens after you win a test match.So in isolation, that should be no surprise and shouldn't really bother anyone.But obviously cricket and this test was not played in isolation.

It was on the back of a reset and a captain that was part of that reset, a captain that was making the decisions on curfews and what needed to be done, broke that very curfew and broke the decisions that he had made.And that is not a good look.When your leader is setting the example and telling you this is the way to go.And then he himself at the very first opportunity breaks those codes of conduct as a leader.Any leader will tell you that that's not acceptable.

Michael, same question to you.

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing.Unbelievable, really, that we're talking about a story like this so soon after after what happened in the ashes, the first tests in Sydney five months ago.And if you remember the ashes, ended with the story about Harry Brooke belatedly coming out, Harry Brooke's incident in Wellington before an ODI, not after, before an ODI.Of course, they tried to keep that quiet or didn't talk about it publicly, but it came out eventually in the ashes.And that was on the back of other stories, you know, the Noosa trip and footage of Duckett and what have you.So that was the narrative at the end of that Ashes tour, not just getting beaten on the field, but a lack of discipline off the field.

So therefore, to have another story in the first Test match after that Sydney Test, I found unbelievable, really.But I don't think it's a resignation offense, and I don't think it's a sacking offense, precisely because of the essential difference with Brook, who was out before an OBI, And this was after a test match win.Now, I take all the point about the context, which is absolutely right.That's why this has become a story, because of the context of what happened in the Ashes and because of the narrative around this England team and the need for a bit more discipline off the field.But of itself, staying out late after a victory is neither a sacking offence nor a resignation offence.However, I do think watching Ben Stokes that, that the context is, there is an added context to it.

And that is the fact that he's four years into his captaincy, because I know you spoke to him at length, Gordie, before that test match, but I was in the press conferences.I watched him very closely and he did look to me like a man who was four years into the job.I think we've been there and really the captains prior to Stokes in recent times, four years has been about the limit.And I think no matter who you are, it's a job that takes its toll.And I did have a kind of instinct before that game that he was just looking like a man who'd been in the job four years.So that's the added context.

So whilst I don't think it's a resignation or a sacking offense at all, but Ben Stokes, the key thing is, you know, his kind of state of mind four years into the job.And, you know, that's been part of the conversation, no doubt over the last two, three days about what How is he feeling?What is he feeling?What decisions to be made?So there's no way that they were going to be included in this squad.We'll talk about, I mean, the equally interesting thing to come out of it is that it's not broken its root, but that's where we are with Stokes and he's got decisions to make, and we still don't know what, you know, how he's feeling about his captaincy and about the playing career.

Take all of that.Appreciate those points.And I agree with you about curfews and the stuff you've written.I don't believe they work.I think it's a sign of bad management.But what is the point of having...

But what is the...I completely agree with you.I don't disagree with that.But can I ask you this, though?What is the point of a curfew if there are no consequences?

No, completely.And there are consequences because...Immediately after, you know, that evening, the ECB released a statement saying they're broken.team protocols or breach team protocols, I think were the exact words that they used.And obviously there's an investigation around the incident with the rugby player.So there are consequences and Ben being party to the imposition of the curfew, that's absolutely right.

And whether it's a fine or, you know, missing matches as it would appear to be the case, you're going to miss this game and maybe the second game as well.So there are consequences, but I don't believe it's it's a sacking or a resignation offense.But just on the curfew point, Nass, I mean, you know, you're right.Every cricketer that has played the game has been out and celebrated after a victory.Curfews, I thought Lola wrote a really good piece on cricket.They are the last resort for a management that's kind of lost control, really.

And the problem with curfews is they just get broken.And if they do get broken, then there are consequences.And it is a reflection of a of where the team is at, the fact that a curfew had to be imposed in the months between the last test in Sydney and this one?

Well, firstly, I don't agree with curfews at all.And I'll come on to that.But secondly, I couldn't understand with Rob Key, Rob Key, on the one hand in the winter saying, no, no, no, we don't have a drinking culture.And on the on the other hand, saying, right, we're going to have a curfew.Why do you need a curfew if you don't have a drinking culture?You know, everyone knows how curfews work.

should go about it.While the game is on, before the game, thoroughly professional.If you've got a game in 24 hours, 48 hours, three days, go back, pack your bags, go home, get rest, get in the gym, get well -fed, go again.If there's a 10 -day gap and you want to have one night out, that is perfectly fine.acceptable.So I don't understand why there was a curfew.

If there is no drinking culture, it tends to suggest that there is a drinking culture within the team.And curfews are only for sides that can't, aren't in control off the field, aren't professional off the field.And I remember Andy Flowers saying to me, everything you do off the cricket field will reflect on the cricket field.where you'll feel a million dollars better when you step over that line.How professional you are off the field often reflects how professional you are on the field.And so it strikes me of a side that has not been professional off the field.

And this was their first chance to show.Now, I don't think I keep repeating it.You've won the test on a Sunday night.You should be able to go out.But then were the rules.There is a curfew.

The game finished at one o 'clock.There is plenty of time to have a few drinks.

It's an impressive drinking session, I've got to say that, from two o 'clock to whatever it was.

I remember one or two of the players, I think Stuart Broad was one actually, after a day night game in Adelaide in one of the Ashes series.It might have been 17, 18, I'm not sure.But because of the overrate, the game finished so late that By the time they'd kind of got back into the dressing room, had a bit of a shower and ready to go, it was almost midnight.And they had this ridiculous sight of the players running over, you know, that footbridge from the Adelaide ground to the hotel, which is just the other side, legging it over this footbridge, justmake sure, like Cinderella, they were back before midnight.I mean, it's a complete nonsense.

What about the way that the ECB have handled this, i .e.Stokes and Atkinson, compared with, well, they tried to bury, really, the Harry Brooke incident.

I'm not sure how fair that is.They just weren't public about it.They hit Harry Brooke with a massive fine, 50 grand or thereabouts, the maximum fine that he could be hit with under the terms of his central contract.And they did that straight away.So their argument, you know, when people say they tried to brush it under the carpet, I'm not sure that's fair.What they did was not make it public.

And of course, they took a risk with that, that eventually it would get made public, as it did in Sydney.But I think the way that played out informed how they tackle this.because that statement came very quickly.And of course, a nightclub in England, in Chelsea, early hours of a Monday morning, given everything, all the context around this team, there was obviously no way that was not going to come out.So very quick to get that statement out.And from that point on, it seemed highly unlikely that either of those players were going to be in this squad.

I mean, it is a unique circumstance, I think.I mean, I can't I'm not sure about the late 19th century or early 20th century, but I can't think of an England captain who's missed a test match for disciplinary reasons in the last 50 years.Mike Dines left himself out of the ashes in 74 -5 for bad form.And other captains have missed tours like Andrew Strauss missed a tour of Bangladesh, didn't he?And Gucci, if you remember, missed a test match in Sri Lanka in 93.But no captain has been kind of left out for disciplinary reasons.

or while an investigation is going on.So it is a unique, a unique circumstance and a very unusual time.

Now, so I wonder what Rob Key will be feeling about the fact that this curfew is broken.And we've spoken about the curfew, but it was broken.You know, I wonder what they are thinking and also what I don't know the Richards that well.

I've never been in that position, how far away they are from day -to -day phone calls and texts.I'm sure they're all over it completely, but I've been a captain and I know if I'd let Duncan down that, you know, when he first, when we first met, he talked to me about trust and we must trust each other implicitly.And I think that's what McCullum and Key will be most disappointed.It's the three of them.McCullum, Key, Stokes.Every time we talk about the regime, it's McCullum, Key, Stokes.

We don't talk about anyone above.They're the ones that have brought about the change in style and brand, the good and the bad.So they will feel incredibly let down.As I said, someone who instigated a curfew and instigated a tightening of the rules and off -field behaviour was the first to break those.But I also think Ben Stokes, and you know Ben Stokes well, I think Ben Stokes will feel like he's let them down and he will feel a little bit embarrassed.And I also think there is a duty of care towards Ben Stokes.

Now, Ath is spot on.He did look tired, haggard, whatever the phrase is, before a ball went down this summer.And I saw a man thatthe toll of four years of captaincy, as we all know, me and AFNO, it weighs you down.And then on top of that, you add the form going.Nothing, nothing hits you harder than a cricketer as a cricketer.

than losing your form, not being able to do what you're supposed to do.However you're captaining or whatever, if you're not getting runs, that weighs you down mentally.You put a smile on your face, but that weighs you down.You're winning and you're not getting runs.That's fine.Or you're getting runs and the side aren't winning.

That's fine.I'm doing my bit.But in Australia, if you're losing and not getting runs and losing the ashes, That weighs you down.And then you come back and he has that horrific facial injury that he had.I do think there's a bit of a duty of care.And also do think there's a bit of me.

Ben Stokes has been there for England a lot.He has been there a lot for England.He's been there as a captain.He's been there as a player at their finest moments, 50 over World Cups, T20 World Cups.He's been a warrior for England and he got it wrong this time.He got it horribly wrong.

I do think.I don't think that is a sackable offence.I don't think and Ben will be in a dark place at the moment.And I just hope Ben doesn't think that I've let so many people down that I'm going to, I'm going to retire.I'm going to make an emotional decision and retire because I think that will be a really sad way for one of England's greats.One of England's greats should not go out like that.

I think he deserves better.It's a wrong way of wording it because you get what you deserve, but I do feel a bit sad if this was the last we saw of Ben Stokes.I really hope it's not.

I think the fact that there's not been anything from him in the lastday or 24 hours is probably a good sign because there were some noises yesterday that he was going to be saying something and the fact that nothing came yesterday and nothing today and the fact that you know, there might just be a bit of breathing space now because it's not going to be playing in the next test.And one assumes because the temperature test comes very quickly on the back of the oval test, it would be hard to think that the regulator's investigation will be complete by then.So although it's only one test that they've announced aside for, you know, you kind of feel it might be two, and that's a fair bit of breathing space then before because obviously Stokes is not playing white ball cricket, then quite a long time before the next series against Pakistan.So there may be a chance for him to take a breather and a blow and a bit of time out precisely for the reasons that we mentioned.I mean, I agree with those from Nassar.

I think it's a combination of things, isn't it?It's the Ashes not going well.It's his form, batting form, which has declined.He can't You know, the game has got him in his grit, whereas previously he had control of the game, you know, he'd be able to shape the game to his will.And he doesn't seem to be able to do that much more at 35.And then the facial injury that robbed him of time in the middle.

And now this, put it all together, you know, and maybe just a bit of time out might help him.But he may feel, because of the reasons we've stated, he's just had enough.And, you know, myself and Nass have been there where you get to the point where you just don't want to do it anymore.and who knows whether he's reached that mark.But I think time now might just heal a bit and we'll wait and see where we are.

I'd like to go back to something you mentioned a little earlier in your answer, Nass, about your life.with Duncan Fletcher and look at the relationship between Ben and Brenda McCullum.Now, it seemed and appeared incredibly tight for the first however many years.I wasn't in Australia, I didn't see any sort of division between them, you guys were out there.But I wonder what Brendan is thinking now, because he has stood up and taken a load of flack in Australia for on -field performances, off -field performances.I'm going to quote from Athier, quoting what Brendan said, talking about himself as leader but it still could apply to Ben.

I wonder now how that relationship will be going forward.

Well going back to the ashes I still think they were tight but there was obviously a difference in opinion on how they should play.Baz wanted to McCullum on him to continue the baseball way run into danger.And it was clear that Stokes or differently after Perth that he wanted to go back to old fashioned value your wicket over my dead body sort of batting.So there's definite crossing a pass going in different directions there.But as far as their relationship now, as I've just said, McCullum will feel incredibly let down.He and said, this is what we need to do.

They would have sat down for months, the three of them with the ECB.They say it saved them their jobs, saying that we are going to have a reset.We are going to be better.We're not going to get ourselves in trouble.Nothing good happens after midnight.And the very first opportunity, my captain who set the rules has broken that.

But I go back to if you ask about me and Duncan or whatever, there's an understanding, there's a human nature to people make mistakes.And I'm hoping Brendan McCullum, after the angerof being let down by Ben Stokes, I hope all of us actually, not just Brendan McCullum or Rob Key.I hope all of us after the anger of feeling a bit left down by our England captain, realise what he has done for this England team as a player and as a captain in the recent past and before that.And I do think He has been there for so many others.We talk about his emotional intelligence.

He has been there for others in their difficult times on the field, off the field.He has been there when we've needed him to win us a World Cup in both formats.He's been there at Headingley.He's been there coming back from injuries.Yeah, he got it wrong in his youth growing up, in his long distance past, but he's tried to put all that right.and he's got it wrong again.

I just hope McCullum and Key see someone that has been there for them and has made an error and is willing to change back his ways.Anything I'd say about Af, about the rest, Stokes knows what's coming if he does come back.And if he does come back, as captain.He's that very first press conference he walks into.

Yeah.He may not, he may not want to go through all that again.Who knows that, but that only he knows that.And that's really, you know, what, what I'm saying that taken in isolation, it's not a, not a sacking or a resignation offense, but the key thing is his state of mind.You know, does he want to do the job?further?

Does he want to go through that thing?And, you know, who knows?And only he knows that, but he will know, there'll be a, there'll be a clear sense from him.Just to answer the question about McCullum, I think it's one of his strengths,actually, that he is a very empathetic guy.I remember Andrew Flintoff telling a story, actually.

I interviewed Freddy last year.It was like the first interview he did post the Top Gear crash.I remember Freddy saying that after the Pedalo, do you remember the Pedalo incident?I was there.Yeah, in the Caribbean.

Not on the pedal, I remind you.

But obviously, Freddie was going through a difficult time then.I remember telling me a story the first time I think he really met, almost came across Brendan, was Brendan was walking down the beach early one morning.I think it was the morning after the pedal or something.And Fred was sat on his own, pretty disconsolate and feeling sorry for himself.And he said, Brendan came over, put his arm around him and said, do you need someone to talk to?And I think that's one of his great strengths, actually.

I think rather than a technical coach who's going to make you a better batter or whatever, I think that kind of human intelligence or whatever you call it, emotional intelligence and human empathy.I think they're the strong points of McCormick.And they are tight.Nass is right.I think they diverged in terms of their messaging in the winter and they saw parts of the cricket differently, but I don't think they fell out.I think they're pretty tight and he will feel that he's embarrassed them both a bit.

When McCollum's showing empathy in the examples you've given, I think we've seen enough evidence of Ben showing empathy to some of his teammates that he's looking after in his dress room down the years.And it was said to me that, or perhaps because of this, he's lost the dress room.How will they deal with this captain that can't bend his own rules?And I'm thinking, hang on, they all know that when and if they needed Ben Stokes, he would be there for them.So surely they will be there for him if he should step back into that role.Would you agree with that?

Yeah, absolutely.You know, I think that the Christianis right that if you as a captain, a party to setting a curfew and setting new protocols and you break them, you know, you deserve to be criticized.It's foolish.It was a mistake.That much is clear enough.

But I don't think it's a case that you can't look the dressing room in the eye at all.You know, absolutely.The point that you make is right, that he's been there for many of them would back players up to the hilt.And I do think they'll respond in kind to him.You know, you can't get away from the fact that it was a bad mistake.And obviously some of the criticism that has rained down is deserved.

The only issue, obviously, he's lived his captaincy by the mantra of don't ask others to do something that you're not willing to do yourself.And he's asking them not to go out and to abide by a curfew.and he's not willing and has not been willing to do that himself.And also say the next time, say someone breaks a curfew or whatever, can he look them in the eye and say, well, that's not good enough?I mean, what they can do is you do lose a little bit of your authority, but he's got so much authority and he's got so much in in the bag because of his previous behavior.And I'm talking about cricketing behavior and how he's led the side.

I think that I think it would diminish a fraction.But you're right, it won't come as a shock to the team that Ben Stokes went out and stayed out a little bit too late.The problem with Ben is he does everything.There was never going to be a finish at one o 'clock and be in bed by four o 'clock.Once Ben Stokes decides that he is going to, once Ben Stokes decides that he is going to go to the gym and get fit, there is no in between with Ben Stokes.It's either all or nothing.

And that's where sometimes he gets himself in trouble.

The fact that there clearly is some punishment for breaking team protocol makes that it would be very difficult to look a player in the eye if playing this week and a player broke the protocol, that would be very difficult.But if you're hit with a punishment yourself, as would any player be, then it makes it kind of easier, doesn't it, next time, because the precedent has been set?

Let's start to throw it forward a little bit, then.Oh, in other news, if the reports are to be believed about what happened in that nightclub in whatever hour of the morning it was, who on earth hits Gus Atkinson?He's the most mild -mannered person on the planet.

We think.

Anyway, we think.Who knows?Now, they've gone for Joe Root as interim captain.They could have gone for Harry Brooke.Why have they done that?

I imagine two reasons.One, the would be irony, would not be lost on them, that if Brooke takes over at this point, because of, you know, the breaking of a curfew and because of discipline, disciplinary reasons, the whole reason for that curfew coming in in the first place was broadly because of what Harry Brooke did in in Wellington before that one day international.And so, you know, that may be part of the reason and the other reason Uh, two reasons really.One is Brooke is already the white ball captain and though he is the official vice captain and was the official vice captain for the ashes.They may just feel with, with all that white ball cricket coming up against India.I think that is it, what is it?

Five T20s or three, five, whatever it is.There's a lot of white ball.It's a lot.And then the hundred and then the hundred and then the test series on the back of a winter where he was out, you know, New Zealand.ashes T20 World Cup, they may just feel at this point, they don't want to overburden him and don't want to, you know, add to his undoubted workload.And at this point, when it's a bit of a crisis moment, who better than your elder statesman with an unblemished kind of record on and off the field, Joe Root, although he gave the captaincy away four years ago, at the end of a period where England were in the doldrums a bit, you know, remember they only won one in 17 at the end of Root's tenure, but he was not an unsuccessful England captain in the grand scheme of things.

It finished badly, as it usually does, but, you know, Root had many triumphs as an England captain as well.And so you put all that together, they may just feel that that elder statesman, sensible elder statesman, who's done it before, has been around the block, knows what it's about, he's the man for this moment.And that seems a sensible decision to me.

Does it, because it's interim and it's Joe, in some way make it easier and that's potentially for Ben to return as Test Match Captain, as opposed to them maybe giving it to Harry?

Yeah, it would start, you know, I'd hate going back to my time, but that was at the end of my captaincy career, if you remember, and Michael Vaughn took over the white ball side.And I immediately noticed the impact that Vaughn had on that side.And when I came back, I just felt like, not like an outsider, but I felt that they were then taking a backward step towards me.They had moved on almost and were wanting to move on towards Vorney and I took over back over at Edgbaston for the test match and I just felt like this is no longer my team.I don't think we're there at the moment.but I do think it does leave the door open for Ben Stokes.

But I do agree with that.He's a safe pair of hands.Imagine the first press conference, you know, now talking about...No, I'm not talking about his.I'm talking about Harry's, you know.Let's talk drinking culture.

And here's the England captain, Harry Brooke, who had that incident in New Zealand.So, you know, I think, I think they had to do something like this.And also the fact that they've probably seen the impact it's had on Ben Stokes.What we've just talked about here is this warrior that looked like he wouldn't bend to anything, who would stand up for everything and the impact emotionally, mentally, the fact that he decided within a few hours that he was going to retire.That was the first thing everyone heard that Ben was thinking of retiring after the incident.That tells me that he's in a dark place mentally.

And you've got this 27 year old Harry Brooke is doing white ball cricket.Do you want to now at this stage put everything on him?The irony there is they've done that exactly that with the coach.But I think Brendan McCullum is way down the line and can cope with that.So there is a bit of that as well that we don't want to burden Harry Brooke at this stage, one of our best players with Joe Root, with absolutely everything.Having seen what's happened to Ben Stokes recently.

It's not straightforward, is it?I mean, what are the challenges, despite his undoubted experience of captaincy, his class as a person on and off the field?It's not straightforward to just take on someone else's side, or is it?

Well, I mean, it's a fair while ago, but just to...My recollection will be slightly different, actually.What happened was that when NASA broke his finger regularly, so they always have to search around for some, you know, some poor fool to take over.But what happened in the previous summer was, I think, people were more than happy to stand in.When it came to Australia in 2001, nobody wanted to do it.I didn't particularly want to do it, but...

Nobody else would do it.So in the end, whoever it was, Duncan or somebody said, you'll just have to do it because there's nobody else.I mean, I was literally the last man they wanted to do it, but nobody else would do it.So I did do it for two games.I didn't particularly want to do it, but either, but, you know, needs must.And I mean, I'm just obviously naturally going to come back.

I was hoping it was only going to be one game.I think it ended up being two games.You've done it before.You just do it.But without any of the sense that it's your team and your thing, you're just doing it out of duty, really, to help people out.And Joe will feel the same.

They obviously must have asked him before the announcement, are you prepared to take it on?He will have said yes.He'll recognize that it's a bit of a crisis.And he's saying, yeah, I'll come to your aid again, as he always has done as a player and as a leader or senior player in that team.He's been a brilliant former captain, I think, Joe Root.If you hear him speak about how he's gone about it for Ben Stokes, he said, that guy was there for me when I was captain.

I want to be there for him, but I don't want to get in his way.And he knows that.But what he's done basically is gone about it getting the maximum amount of runs he can and a fantastic record.in the last few years, as indeed he had as captain.But that's been his central contribution to Ben Stokes.And also, you know, fitting into initially when the, when the baseball thing was in it at its absolute height, you know, Root was trying to expand his game.

He was really buying into it.It would have been easy for him to say, no, I've got 10 ,000 runs.I will play my way.but he's so self -effacing and selfless, he actually bought into the Stokes McCollum mantra, albeit he's kind of dialed back from that now.I think everybody realizes it's just best for him to play his way, but a brilliant former captain and he'll do a perfectly good job for a couple of games.

Two things I'd say about that is that one, Joe would have had to clear it with himself and almost with Ben was if that's okay, because they are so tight, those two, that if, Ben Stokes had been axed as captain or been left out and wasn't happy with it.I'm sure there would have been a WhatsApp from Joe saying that they've offered me the captaincy.Are you all right with me doing this for a game?Because he would not want to upset his best mate in any way.And the other thing you have to bear in mind is how it reflects on Harry Brooke and how Harry would react to it.There would be some people who were vice captain who were having been overlooked, would not see that kindly.

they would read some kind of hidden message into it.I think Harry is the sort of bloke that is, and I mean this in the kindest way, he keeps things pretty simple.He doesn't overcomplicate.When he got the text from Key or whoever saying, we're going to give it to Joe on interim basis.Are you okay with that?He'd have been like, yeah, whatever.

I'll get some runs.And if you need me in the future, I'll be there for you.

I mean, I did.I spoke to him before the ashes and asked him about a captaincy.He said, it's something I've never reallyaspired to.He obviously is the white ball captain, but he said, the big thing for me is being the best player I can be, one of the greats and the captaincy, if it comes along well, okay, so be it.I don't think it's something he yearns for.

So I agree.I don't think he'll perceive this to be a knockback or a demotion in any way.

Alright, back to this squad then.The two that have been added, Joffrey Archer obviously had a lot of cricket in the IPL but has had some time in Barbados, recuperating and relaxing and getting his head out of India and all the pressure of the IPL.And Jordan Cox, what do we make of those two selections?Given that Archer, if his loads are okay, goes straight into the side, Jordan Cox hasn't had much cricket?

I mean, Archer missed a game, he's back and if he's got his loads right and he's fit, He will be available for selection.When you open the door for either, he'll come in probably.The harder thing was if Gus Atkinson hadn't been disciplined, there may have been a harder decision, but you'd think Joffre would come in if his loads are right.And Brendan has been talking recently and Rob Key about how good Joff is when you do give him a bit of leeway and a bit of a rest, that he always comes back ready to bowl.So that's a good sign.I was a bit surprised at Jordan Cox.

Not that I don't think he's a very good cricketer.I think he's superb.Or simply because he has been away with a lot of white ball cricket.And just for the horses, for the course that is the oval, I'd have gone Dan Lawrence.And not just on the back of 200s there this week.We did a county championship game earlier in the season, albeit on a flat pitch.

He looked like he was getting in some really good positions, having a little bit of a slow start to the season, actually a couple of loose shots.But since then, he's been outstanding, borrows a bit of offspin.And for that, for the oval where you may not need, they don't play their front line spin.That's the role Dan Lloyd plays.at Surrey at the Oval.I may have thought, batting back where he should be batting in the middle order, anywhere from four to seven, I personally think I would have gone Dan Lawrence.

I would have said that before this Championship game, especially at the Oval.

Just overall, sort of coming to a conclusion.Are ECB, Rob Key, whoever, sort of right?It feels like they sort of hit a pause button.Everyone's just taking a breath.Let's just see what rolls out over the next however long.Let the cricket disciplinary regulator do the thing, etc.

Is it right to sort of hit a pause button?

Well, clearly they had to to take some action.You know, if you impose a curfew, put these protocols in place, and...They're going to take drastic action.Yeah, exactly.They're breached the first test match in five months after everything that's gone on.Clearly, they had to take some action.

But as I've said clearly, and Nasser, I think, has said, I don't believe it's a sacking or a resignation offence.And therefore that's where we're at.And that seems fair enough.I mean, I think they've been playing it very much day by day, just trying to get through each day because, you know, there were some rumors that Stokes was going to do something yesterday and thankfully nothing came.And this, as we said before, may just now be a little bit of a pause, but may allow him to rest, reflect and recuperate and allow the team to push on without the distraction of, you know, of having those two players in the squad for the next game.So at the moment, yes, I mean, clearly they weren't going to be playing at the Oval, so no surprise there.

And I think they've made a sensible decision en route, actually, for all kinds ofreasons, both pertaining to Root and to Brook.I think that's a sensible call.

But in the end, Wardy, the ball is not in the ECB's court.In the end, actually, at the moment, Ben Stokes is England cricket captain, Joe Root's interim captain, and it hits you between the eyes.when you can't do that job anymore.I know I was there in Antigua when Anthe announced to the team that he was standing down.I was obviously there at Edgbaston when I realized that I just could not do the job anymore.It is too important a job just to do it for the sake of it.

You are England cricket captain and that in the end, the decision and the thoughts have to be with Ben Stokes.Does Ben still have the energy to do this job anymore?As I just said, Ben Stokes doesn't do anything by half measures.That's what makes him the leader that he is.He does it full on.Has he got the energy to continue to do this job full on?

Because if he doesn't, then he should probably give it away.But I also have the feeling that in a few years time, if you look back and say, oh, why did Ben Stokes retire from the game of cricket?Why did one of our great leaders and captains and players retire?Because he broke a curfew that he himself set.I think that would be, like I said earlier, pretty sad.and not the right way to go out.

But that is where we are.He's got to decide if he wants to carry on being England cricket captain.

I agree with you about the curfew, if it was to end that way.But Athers, even if he did decide enough is enough, it's not quite the barnstorming way we would want to see Ben off into the sunset.I'm not asking you about his cricketing obituary, but, you know, you sort of imagine him charging down the hill at Headingley or smacking it somewhere or other.That's how you sort of want to see him play.If we don't see him again, it'll be sad.

Yeah.I mean, most captaincy careers end in failure.That's the nature of them.Um, this would be curious if Ben didn't captain England again, because obviously they're just had a resounding win at Lords.And of course, he's got the second best win percentage ratio of any England captain after Mike Brearley.Um, so that would be a curious set of circumstances.

I hope Um, that doesn't come to pass and I hope he continues to play.Um, you know, if he didn't, and you're looking back at a career, you know, he's been a fantastic cricketer and I think a fantastic captain as well.He's led with bravery and conviction and in a distinctive style, you know, you can look at a team and know it's a Ben Stokes led team with the way that they've played.Um, he did it his way.And I think proved for a short while that Test cricket had probably been played in an overly conservative manner for much of its history.They took it in a different direction.

And for two years, they played some of the most fantastic Test cricket that I've seen from an England team.Now, the pendulum went a bit far.Some great players retired and finished like Broad and Anderson.They couldn't quite take that on.The big scalps of India and Australia.it eluded them and the Ashes was a shambles.

Um, but you know, there, there was a lot of good stuff there over that four year period.I do think that's why he's got a lot of credit in the bank and people have not forgotten that or shouldn't forget that.

And he's someone, and there's not many around anymore.They talk about it.He champions Test match cricket.He loves Test match cricket.

We've lost Anderson who loved it.

We've lostBroad, who loved it.We've lost Coley, who loved it.We can't afford to lose another that absolutely champions test match cricket.A great format.And he said about it this week when he had a pitch, he said, if you want us, if you want me to continue championing, championing test match cricket, we've got to play on better pitches than what we've just played on.

So let's hope he's around for a while, but who knows?We will see.

Alright lads, thank you very much indeed.Next time you'll see us we'll be at the Oval for the start of that second test.Joe Root leading the way, Archer Cox into the squad.I wonder what we'll talk about from 10am on the Sky Sports Cricket.See you all later.