All Content

Cops Use AI to Jail Innocent Grandmother for 6 MONTHS

The Civil Rights Lawyer94 views
0:00

They took a still of an image and sent it to one of these AI facial recognition companies. And that company spit out Angela as their result. The AI gave them a name. They looked at her social media account and said, that's good enough.

0:14

Imagine that there's some crime committed in Fargo, North Dakota. Cops pull a grainy surveillance photo of a suspect off of a surveillance camera. Then they run that grainy surveillance photo through AI facial recognition software and it matches with a completely innocent grandmother down in Tennessee who has never even been to North Dakota. Imagine they just run with that AI match and they issue an arrest warrant without performing

0:41

an actual investigation into whether the AI software was correct. Then that innocent grandmother is arrested in Tennessee, put in jail on a hold to be extradited to North Dakota. She sits there in a jail for months with nobody even bothering to check and see if she is the actual suspect that they are looking for in North Dakota. You don't have to imagine because that happened.

1:07

And the grandmother's lawyers are here to tell you how bad this really is.

1:12

When I met with Angela, she said she'd never been to North Dakota, never talked to the police from North Dakota, never been on an airplane before, barely left, you know, a hundred mile radius of Elizabethan. And then I re-emailed them on like the 10th and said, Hey, like I'm just re-upping this. I don't think you guys have the right person. That's a nightmare scenario in the best case world for the Fargo PD.

1:33

I mean, if they can basically grab anyone from around the country who fits into a blurry,

1:38

massive pixels on a surveillance video, no one's safe.

1:46

This lady actually spent a substantial amount of time in jail, it sounds like.

1:51

Yeah, a lot. She was approaching six months.

1:55

It was only two weeks ago that I posted that video from Reno where AI basically told cops to arrest this guy in a casino and they did. Then last week, it must've been hundreds of you who sent me links to yet another AI false arrest case that hit the news, and this one is even worse. Using AI software, cops in Fargo, North Dakota get an alleged match with this grandmother down in Tennessee.

2:21

Then doing basically no detective work of their own, they just obtain an arrest warrant and they have her arrested and held in jail to be transported from Tennessee to North Dakota. Never mind that this woman has never even been to the state of North Dakota, never even been on an airplane before. If the AI says it's her, it must be her, right? I mean, that saves a lot of detective work. So I jumped right on it, my paralegal helped me track down and get in touch with the lawyers, and I got to interview

2:50

both the criminal defense lawyer who freed this woman from jail, as well as the civil rights lawyer who was about to file a civil rights lawsuit. As I mentioned, the Rina one was bad, but this one is actually way worse. Instead of just one night or a couple nights in jail, this woman ended up spending almost six months in jail. This is Jay Greenwood, a contract public defender in Fargo, North Dakota. He's the one who discovered that the cops had the wrong woman sitting in jail awaiting trial and then did something

3:22

about it. You're a lawyer in Fargo, North Dakota. How do you first hear the name Angela Lips?

3:29

I do contract public defender work for the city and the counties around here. And I was assigned to her case on Halloween is when she had her initial appearance. And then I met with her maybe a week and a half after that.

3:44

Maybe give me the rundown on what happened here.

3:47

We're dealing with someone who is using like a military ID or somebody's ID to go in and do bank fraud involving home equity loans, stuff like that. And somebody had gone into a bank and did this and they had a video camera over the, you know, when you come in the door and then they had a video camera over the teller desk that she was dealing with. The police department used a still image. They're not great images. They're from overhead, but they took a still of an image and sent it to one of these AI

4:19

facial recognition companies. And that company spit out Angela as their result. And so the police department in their initial report says that they one of their detectives looked at Angela and then went and looked at all of her social media accounts and said you know looks looks like the lady in the in the video and the AI is saying this is her and And so she was charged. So in Tennessee,

4:46

they arrested her pretty violently, actually guns drawn all that jazz. She's at, um, you know, in a trailer park in Elizabeth in Tennessee, they arrest her, put her in jail in Tennessee, asked North Dakota's asking for extradition. So she's held essentially without bond.

"99% accuracy and it switches languages, even though you choose one before you transcribe. Upload → Transcribe → Download and repeat!"

Ruben, Netherlands

Want to transcribe your own content?

Get started free
5:01

Did she have any connection to North Dakota?

5:04

None. No. And so she sat there in Tennessee. Her public defender in Tennessee was just in charge of her extradition. The extradition process is almost impossible to explain to people, but all they want to know is,

5:17

is this the person that North Dakota is looking for? You're not able to argue merits or anything like that. It's just, is this the person? She didn't want to agree to just come to North Dakota. She was fighting extradition. So she sat in Tennessee for like four months, five months.

5:31

Almost.

5:32

Do you have any idea how they just using a photo connected that to this woman in

5:39

Tennessee out of Fargo, North Dakota?

5:42

It's kind of the uproar, you know, in the community. This story's had real big legs, you know, about what happened. But they didn't do any other investigation. They literally use the AI. They gave them the AI, gave them a name. They looked at her social media accounts, said that's good enough. Filed for arrest and warrant for her, and for her charges and just started the

6:05

process.

6:06

That was it.

6:07

When I met with Angela, she said she'd never been to North Dakota, never talked to the police from North Dakota. Um, never been on an airplane before, barely left, you know, a hundred mile radius of Elizabethan. Um, so I just asked her family to give me some bank records so I could verify that she'd been purchasing things, you know, around her house. And when they gave me those, I was able to get the prosecutor and the detective

6:31

into an interview room. They asked her a bunch of questions and five days later she was released.

6:36

Other than just getting the results from this AI database or AI software did, do you know whether they performed any other investigation such as you just did, talking to family, asking for, for credit card records, et cetera.

6:55

Did they do anything?

6:56

Zero. It was pretty, and that is the main issue that everyone's upset with that. She had, when I met with Angela afterwards, I asked if she had talked to police, because normally, I mean, you're a defense attorney, you're like, have you made any statements to them? Have you told them anything?

7:12

She's like, no, one's talked to me. So they didn't do anything. They didn't speak to anyone in her orbit. They didn't do any of that. They based it solely on what the computers spit out and what they were able to see from her Facebook, Insta,

7:29

stuff like that. When you first met with her, what did she say to you? I mean, did you believe her that, you know, I've never been to North Dakota? I don't know

7:39

if it's a belief thing, but you know, we all as defense attorneys, we all work on proof. I have an alibi. I was never in North Dakota. So, you know, I did what I normally do in alibi in North Dakota. You have to give notice of alibi. You have to tell them who your witnesses are.

7:54

That'll present the alibi. And so I, I said, do you, can I, do you have any, were you buying things? Cause that's usually a pretty good paper trial. And she said, yeah, I was, you know, it's in Elizabeth and I said, can I get your bank record? She goes, I'll have my family send them to you. And so her family emailed them to me, took like a week, maybe two weeks. And then I got them to the state's attorney's office right after that.

99.9% Accurate90+ LanguagesInstant ResultsPrivate & Secure

Transcribe all your audio with Cockatoo

Get started free
8:16

All right. So you did their job for them and you provided the prosecutors with proof that they had the wrong person. What did they do with

8:26

that? I mean did they act immediately? Did they sit on it? They sat on it for a

8:30

little bit and I don't know why necessarily. I know there was some tumult and turnover in the office at that time. So the guy that charged the case out, I emailed him probably on the 1st of December. It took a week and a half to meet with Angela or so, and then a couple of weeks for her family to give me the stuff. Then I read through it and I forwarded it to the state's attorney's office,

8:52

essentially saying, I don't think you guys have the right person. She's buying stuff in Tennessee at the time, she's depositing her social security checks at the same time. If you look back on the bank records, they match the same types of purchases and deposits that she was making the two months prior to that. So it's like, I don't think you have the right person. Well, I got no response.

9:13

And then I re emailed them on like the 10th and said, Hey, like I'm just re-upping this. I don't think you guys have the right person. And at that point, one of the prosecutors got back to me and said, Hey, this has been reassigned to a different prosecutor. So I forwarded it again. You know, look, Jordan, I think this is the wrong person. And to his credit, once he got it, him and I worked immediately to set up an interview with the local PD. They did an interview at the jail with me, her and the prosecutor. And she was set for preliminary preliminary hearing which is a probable cause hearing in North Dakota. It's kind of an old vestige thing. We don't

9:48

really need them anymore but we still have them. They just didn't even proceed with the hearing. They just said we're just gonna dismiss. So she was out.

9:56

And so what they just released her onto the street in Fargo, North Dakota or did they send her back? Or help her get back? No, they didn't send her back. It was kind of a, uh, I think Angela was kind of upset.

10:07

And I say this completely out of my own, like, assumptions.

10:12

So the craziest part of the story that these two lawyers will tell you is not just that this AI mistake was made and this woman spent six months incarcerated for no good reason, certainly no justifiable reason. The most shocking part about it was they just basically released Angela out onto the streets of Fargo, North Dakota in the middle of the winter. And this woman was from Tennessee.

10:39

They didn't deliver her back to Tennessee. They didn't make other accommodations for her. They just said, oops, oh well, see you later. So how did she get back to Tennessee? That's another crazy part of this story. And that's actually a good part of this story because the local defense bar, the criminal defense lawyers, the public defenders, the private lawyers who defend people in criminal cases in the Fargo, North Dakota area. They are the good guys in this story.

11:08

They got together their own resources, their own money,

11:12

and they helped this woman.

11:14

The Cass County jail has what's called winter packages for people that are released from jail and are going out into the cold because it's, it sucks here in winter, especially around December time. So they, I think they offered her a coat or something like that. Again, she's from Tennessee. She has no family here.

11:32

She has no money.

11:33

She has no anything.

11:34

They didn't even let her bring her false teeth with her when they arrested her. So she's, she's got nothing in North Dakota, the local defense bar, not me, I mean, there's rules against me giving her money and stuff, but the local defense bar got together some money for a hotel and some food, got her over the two days. And then there's a guy in our local community named Adam Martin, who runs a foundation called F5 that helps people with felony records, get housing and treatment, stuff like that. He drove her to Chicago halfway to meet with her family so that they could take her back

12:08

to Tennessee. He did it in his own personal truck.

12:11

That is insane. That is really insane. I mean, without government, who would arrest the wrong person and take you from Tennessee to Fargo, North Dakota, and then set you out on the street in the middle of winter

"Cockatoo has made my life as a documentary video producer much easier because I no longer have to transcribe interviews by hand."

Peter, Los Angeles, United States

Want to transcribe your own content?

Get started free
12:27

in Fargo, North Dakota with no way to get home?

12:30

Yeah, it's a little bonkers. Not a lot of forethought there. The local police chief has been pretty vocal in not taking any responsibility, you know, that they had what they needed. He's not backtracking at all, so. mean, what is there? What is their defense to that?

12:48

I don't think there is one he made he keeps making statements about how the case has been dismissed without prejudice

12:54

Which happens every single time here's another important part of this story. So while the local defense bar the f5 Project, Mr. Greenwood. They are the good guys in this story. The bad guys in this story, the Fargo Police Department, the leadership completely attempts to dodge accountability and gaslight the public. So after the public finds out about this and there's outrage. The police chief suddenly resigns slash retires.

13:27

And there's this surprise press conference, I think it was March 11th, where they claim this surprise sudden retirement

13:37

is basically for family reasons.

13:39

So chief suddenly sends me a letter last night, says, well, sounds like a good idea, Tim, I'm gonna retire. So, put in his letter of resignation last night for retirement, and he will be done at the end of the month. Are there any questions?

13:54

Chief, this question's for you. Ethan Kramer, Valley News Live. I'm just curious, why now, as you're making this decision to retire?

14:02

Sure, well, this has been a family discussion for some time. So really, the execution of it is also a family decision. I think this is a good time for a lot of reasons. But my wife and I have a big anniversary coming up pretty soon. We'd like to take in a, not that we don't enjoy a vacation,

14:20

but an enjoyable vacation.

14:21

And almost all the reporters there at this press conference ask all of these ridiculous softball questions like, what is your favorite ice cream? Only one of the reporters asks the actual obvious question that should have been asked by all of them there, and that was about the Angela Lipps incident. They completely refuse to answer to the public at that time. They just don't answer the question. A question, why did nobody from FPD ever

14:51

speak with Angela Lipps for the five months she was in jail? Well thank you

14:57

Matt for that question but we're not here to talk about that today. Just for

15:03

the press that's an ongoing investigation. Matt's been asking about it, but we have to wait until the investigation is over.

15:10

Any other questions in regards to the retirement, please?

15:12

But it's not going away. The public is only getting more outraged. There are media pieces running about the Angela Lipps story. So then the police chief does a radio interview where he tries to clarify some of

15:27

the misinformation and provide so-called context.

15:31

You mentioned a review is underway. You've been at this a long time, just from a 30,000 foot view. Do you see mistakes having been made?

99.9% Accurate90+ LanguagesInstant ResultsPrivate & Secure

Transcribe all your audio with Cockatoo

Get started free
15:38

No, I don't. Although there's always room for improvement. And I think, again, reiterate, this wasn't on anyone's radar until the last week and a half, two weeks. I had no knowledge of this whatsoever, that this had occurred. And as soon as we got the first couple of inquiries,

15:54

we sent it, I sent it to our investigations division captain for response. And as would be our typical response, it's an ongoing investigation and we can't talk about it. And we can't talk about it and we can't Condemn in any way the any potential persons of interest or suspects So we have to be very careful there so that the state's attorney can actually carry out their mission as well

16:13

And that investigation is still ongoing and we hope to in the future be able to definitively know one way or the other What her involvement is or is not but at this jun, we don't know. Then apparently that pisses off people on the city council there in Fargo. They have some sort of meeting after that occurs. One of the city commissioners gives a radio interview like the same day or the next day,

16:38

just tearing the police chief and the mayor apart.

16:41

Sir, what happened yesterday, we had an executive session and in that basically everyone tried to deny responsibility and blame other people. The other thing is this is a huge liability for the taxpayers of

16:53

Fargo. You know, more than likely we're going to get sued.

16:56

Did anybody answer why somebody was incarcerated for five months and nobody went down to see her?

17:04

And that's why we have to have a review because yesterday the police chief and the mayor were totally denying any responsibility or even knowledge. And so we have to find out what exactly went on. And then for the police chief to resign immediately, obviously, you know, there's a lot of very bad things going on. And so we need to have somebody, because yesterday nobody was telling the truth. To me, I'm not surprised at all. That's the first thing you do is evade responsibility and try to blame someone else.

17:33

So now just yesterday, they had another press conference. Did they accept responsibility?

17:41

Let's continue the conversation and then we'll get to that.

17:44

Imagine the best case scenario for Fargo PD is that Angela was the one that did this and they somehow come up with a bunch of evidence that she's this criminal mastermind. And again, I don't think that's true. I think they just have the wrong person. But let's say they find out that she was the one doing this. Their best case scenario was they flew a person here, paid for it, paid for her incarceration in Tennessee, the feds paid for the arrest, we paid for her flight, we paid for her incarceration here and then they dismissed the case because they didn't have enough evidence to begin with and they have to start the process all over again and bring her back here? You gotta be kidding me.

18:21

That's a nightmare scenario in the best case world for the Fargo PD.

18:25

Anything you can tell me about Angela Lipps?

18:29

Oh, she's actually incredibly kind, really nice. For someone that had gone through the process she had gone through and was in North Dakota now, having never been here before, you know, she's gone through it, man. In addition to the stuff she dealt with here

18:44

in Tennessee and Fargo, she, you know, I think the local news did a story on her and said that she may have lost her housing and you know, when you're in jail, sometimes your social security disability gets suspended. So she was missing out on some of that stuff. I think she might've lost a pet.

19:01

Like so she went through hell. Because Jay Greenwood was the court appointed public defender who represented Angela and got her freed from jail. That's basically where his representation ended. Fortunately, Angela was able to hire civil rights lawyers to then begin investigating what happened to her for a potential civil rights lawsuit to be filed. So I also got in touch with the civil rights lawyers who now are representing Angela. They're still investigating, still collecting evidence, but hopefully they are going to

19:39

be filing this civil lawsuit. This is my conversation with Eric Rice out of Minneapolis, Minnesota, who is one of the two civil rights lawyers now representing Angela. How did this happen?

19:52

You know, and that's what we're currently investigating. So we haven't filed anything yet. We're trying to do our diligence and finding out exactly what occurred. And, you know, you do this work. So I think you know that Sometimes it's hard to find Exactly where the issue occurred even if the overall issue is pretty apparent And so that's something we're currently looking into It does appear that AI was used as a an investigative tool by law enforcement I will say I've seen some police reports in this matter not sure if they're all of them

20:21

But what I've seen is that an officer came to Angela because of an AI lead, you know, looked at her social media and says this person could be the one on these blurry surveillance videos, and then that caused an arrest warrant to issue and Angela to be extradited and detained and charged. I haven't seen anything in the file that an officer found some sort of geographical connection to North Dakota or some connection to the bank or evidence of Angela improperly gaining or using funds or being connected to the other suspect that they apparently have in custody. So even if you take AI out of the

20:56

equation, I mean if an officer sees someone on social media that lives halfway across the country that looks, you know, like somebody could possibly be on a blurry surveillance video, you wouldn't accept that as a sufficient investigation to bring charges and do all of this. And just because I, you know, initially provided potentially a lead for Angela, I mean, doesn't close that gap.

21:20

The more they did, in fact, research or social media, if they did, then the more exculpatory

21:26

evidence they would have found. Well, and that's something that initially came to my mind and we're currently investigating. Like you said, if an officer sees even a face that could potentially, you know, fit within this blur on the surveillance video, if that person has no local connection, the first thing you'd expect an officer to do is say, well, was Angela in the area? Could she have been in the area? Does she have any ties to this area? And if you can't put her even in the state or in that portion of the country where the

21:50

crime allegedly occurred, then maybe you should do some more investigation before issuing

21:55

an arrest warrant. Government employees will make mistakes, of course, but it's what they do after they realize the mistake is made that is most egregious to me. Here, they could have done the right thing or they could have helped make it right. Instead, they sort of just turn around on the street

22:16

in North Dakota in the wintertime. And from what Jay told me, never apologized and sort of took the position that they didn't do anything

22:27

wrong.

22:28

Yeah, I mean, that's the reporting I've seen. I know the chief has issued some statements and I think other officials from the city. The tenor of the statements I've seen is essentially, well, the officer reported it and a prosecutor signed off and a judge signed off, so obviously it must have been fine or else that wouldn't have happened.

22:45

And essentially, they've also made a fact that Angela had her case dismissed without

22:51

prejudice. So, I mean, they've kind of left the door open. Well, she could still be a suspect and we're still investigating, we might come back for

22:57

her.

22:58

I haven't seen anything in the file that suggests that Angela is a credible suspect in this matter. And if they didn't have the evidence when they issued the warrant and charged her and tried to bring criminal proceedings against her, I mean, what do they have now? I would say that if they don't have new evidence now that ties Angela to North Dakota or the crime or something better than they had before, they should really clear that air of suspicion for Angela because she's still dealing with the effects afterward.

23:22

And you would think, all right, if they're using this software and I think they're using the flock stuff as well. Jay told me, of course, they're using it everywhere. Like, why aren't they putting their two little like magic tools that they like to rely on together? Like, all right, if this woman who lives in Tennessee

23:41

somehow committed this crime in Fargo, North Dakota. And you know, when this crime was committed, you have a surveillance photo that was taken on a particular day at a particular time. Like how easy would that be to like check the check and see what her license plate number is, what her, what is her vehicle registration? Did those show up on any of your like 1000,000 flock cameras between Fargo, North Dakota

24:07

and wherever she lives in Tennessee? And that's what I'm saying, I can't say whether they did or not because I don't have the full file and all the answers, but I mean that's again not something unexpected or something unusual, that would be a basic investigative tool is to say if you have this possible face match in Tennessee, you've got to find something that would put her in North Dakota or allows her to get to North Dakota or puts her somewhere in the vicinity.

24:30

And if you don't have that, then maybe don't claim PC and don't issue an arrest warrant and don't extradite her and make her stand charges. Because I mean, that's a basic element you'd expect a prosecutor to have to prove is that Angela was in that part of the country around the time that these crimes occurred. And if you don't have that piece of evidence, then maybe continue your investigation.

99.9% Accurate90+ LanguagesInstant ResultsPrivate & Secure

Transcribe all your audio with Cockatoo

Get started free
24:51

How is Angela doing now?

24:54

The department, as you mentioned, hasn't apologized, hasn't taken full responsibility that they messed up or that she shouldn't have been suspected. And if anything, they noted her case was dismissed without prejudice. So Angela's having to answer questions about if she's still under suspicion and can she further prove her innocence. And that's what I would say this case really highlights the dangers of officers relying on AI in this manner. As AI becomes more prevalent and cheaper, you're probably going to see more and more

25:22

of this where officers are using it as a shortcut instead of a proper law enforcement investigation. It basically means that anyone could potentially be named as a suspect in these types of cases. Depending on what you have on social media, depending on how clear the surveillance video is, depending on what database or library law enforcement is pulling from, I mean, if they can basically grab anyone from around the country who fits into a blurry mass of pixels on a surveillance video, no one's safe.

25:47

And that's why it's important that the line be established with Angela's case and with cases like these now that we expect and demand more from law enforcement to use AI as a tool, but not as a basis itself to charge and extradite a person across the country.

26:06

So after I talked to Jay and Eric, in fact, this was just yesterday, the city of Fargo holds a press conference, another one. And remember, at their earlier press conference, they refused to answer any questions about the Angela Lipps incident.

26:22

Why did nobody from FPD ever speak with Angela Lipps for the five months she was in jail?

26:29

Well, thank you, Matt, for that question, but we're not here to talk about that today.

26:33

And in his radio interview,

26:35

the chief of police claimed they did nothing wrong.

26:39

You've been at this a long time, just from a 30,000 foot view,

26:42

do you see mistakes having been made? No, I don't. Although there's always room for improvement. But now that more of the public knows that's not true, that was a lie, that was gaslighting, they once again come out publicly and have a press conference about the Angela Lipps incident. We understand that this situation has caused a lot of concern and frustration in our community, ellipse incident. They basically tried to do some damage control. They say, well, we did not use AI software.

27:29

It wasn't us. It was our colleagues over at the West Fargo Police Department. It was them. They did it, and they sent us the AI match. We didn't even know about it. Just in terms of facial recognition

27:45

technology, facial recognition is a form of artificial intelligence. We don't have any equipment that does facial recognition artificial intelligence at the Fargo Police Department. At some point our partner agency over at West Fargo purchased their own AI facial recognition system that we were not aware of at the executive level anyway. And we would not have allowed that to be used, and it has since been prohibited.

28:15

And I'll talk about that in coming up here. We have always gone through ND-SLIC. And some of the information that came from the West Fargo AI system is part of the issue. Not necessarily them but our reliance on that information. Information that we received from West Fargo PD was their submission of the photo from

28:39

an idea used in one of their fraud cases. They through their AI system made that identification of miss slips and forwarded that information identified the person used in one of their fraud cases. They through their AI system made that identification of miss slips and forwarded that information and I would say

28:53

it's not an identification.

28:54

It's a potential suspect but they forwarded that information to our detectives who then assumed wrongly that they had also sent in the surveillance photos with that photo ID. Uh, as you can imagine the photo on the fake ID that I use doesn't necessarily mean

29:13

that I am the person that's in that fake ID. And so the wrong assumption was that the surveillance photos had been sent. However, the photo, uh photo did hit on her as a potential person. If I understand this gaslighting correctly, they're not saying we should not have just relied on AI and we should have performed a more thorough investigation to corroborate some AI match. What they're actually saying is, we didn't use AI. We just relied

"The accuracy (including various accents, including strong accents) and unlimited transcripts is what makes my heart sing."

Donni, Queensland, Australia

Want to transcribe your own content?

Get started free
29:46

ignorantly on our colleagues AI over at the West Fargo Police Department that we don't actually usually trust. So we don't have it and we would not have relied on it had we known that they used it, but we didn't know. But nevertheless, we put that into a sworn affidavit that was presented to a judge that caused this woman to be arrested multiple states away and then jailed for like six months. The worst part about this press conference was, is that when asked by a reporter if they

30:19

were going to apologize to Angela Lips,, he refused to apologize, and once again implied or insinuated or even outright alleged that Angela Lipps still may be a suspect, despite the fact that he just finished blaming West Fargo Police Department using their unreliable AI.

30:40

He apologized for eroding the trust of the community, but a lot of calls have been out there to apologize to Angela Lips. Why not do that?

30:49

Sure. Valid question, and I think we had a little discussion on that last night as well. So at this juncture, we still don't know who's involved and who's not involved. We're going to have to whittle through all of this kind of vast network of people. And who's involved, you know, you could have, this is a large conspiratorial type of operation in which many people are involved.

31:13

And so, kind of just like, if you think about a robbery crew. Today we go out, four of us, and we do an armed robbery. Today, I got the gun, he takes the money, someone else watches the door. Tomorrow we switch it up. He's got the gun, I watch the door, someone else takes

31:30

the money. And so there's a lot of people involved in this. So I think that's an appropriate question and a response at the right time, but we do not know definitively who's involved and who's not at this juncture.

31:42

I mean, what else could they possibly have done? It was AI's fault. And it wasn't our AI. It was their AI. I mean, it's not like we could have done any real investigation work. I mean, we had no way of knowing whether this woman had ever entered the state of North

31:58

Dakota. We don't have flock cameras everywhere. We don't have the ability to subpoena bank records or credit card records. We don't have the right to call people on the phone and ask them questions. We don't have the ability to walk up to their front door and do a knock and talk. And we definitely don't have any sort of nationwide databases that we can access to find out information about people and, you know,

32:20

investigate them. There's basically nothing we could do. As Eric explained, there definitely were not only things that they could do, but that constitutionally, they are required to do in order to arrest somebody because probable cause is required. Hopefully others will see this and say, you know what? We need to have an AI policy in our policies.

32:45

Even if there's an AI match,

32:47

you still need to do police work.

32:50

Yeah, I mean, and that's a lesson that needs to be driven home. And I think there's two aims here that I hope people take away from Angela's case. And one is that this AI face recognition is not reliable and is not meant to be used as a substitute

33:04

for conventional police investigation. And two, I hope officers take a moment just to consider the consequences of their actions on the people who are targeted. There are some very basic questions that should have been answered. Was Angela in the area? Could she have been in the area? What are her bank records show? Does she, you know, does she have any tie? Go to the teller, have her identify and see if she

33:26

names Angela as the person. And it appears that a lot of that wasn't done. And I think going forward, if officers take to heart that these tools are not an effective substitute for investigation and that they could cause extreme harm to members of their community that most officers want to help protect, that they'll pause and, you know, take a moment to make sure that their efforts are

33:49

proper. AI is a powerful tool, but that's what it is. It's a tool. When it comes to having people arrested, you cannot just rely on AI. As lawyers, we use AI all the time. It allows us to do our jobs better. It's a tool. Just like lawyers cannot rely on AI to write their briefs for them, cops and prosecutors cannot rely on AI to find their suspects for them. But the difference is when lawyers do that, they get in trouble. It's been all over the news.

34:21

But on the other hand, when cops do it, when the government does it, they do not hold themselves accountable. What went wrong is very simple. They relied on AI and did absolutely nothing else. Angela Lips paid the price, incarcerated for multiple months. There is a GoFundMe page for Angela Lips, which I will link in the description below.

34:43

It's currently at $57,802 raised. It was actually very simple, very basic detective work that ironically they could have used AI to do if they really wanted to use AI. I'm sure this won't be the last AI case I do a video on, but I'll continue to follow this one and if I hear anything else I'll do an update video. And you can follow along by subscribing both here and at the blog at thecivilrightslawyer.com.

35:09

You can follow me on x at JohnBryanESQ. Remember, You can follow me on x at JohnBryanESQ. Remember,

99.9% Accurate90+ LanguagesInstant ResultsPrivate & Secure

Transcribe all your audio with Cockatoo

Get started free
35:12

our rights don't end where your fear begins. Freedom is scary. Deal with it.

Get ultra fast and accurate AI transcription with Cockatoo

Get started free →

Cockatoo