CRAIG JONES vs MIKEY MUSUMECI IN HEATED DEBATE on UFC BJJ & CJI! | MIGHTY DEBATE!

What's going on guys? Welcome to another episode of the Mighty Cast. In today's list we have the anticipated debate between UFC's BJJ Mikey Lissomichie. And then on the flip side we have the savior of Jiu Jitsu, Craig Jones. And in this debate we're going to be covering Derek Moneyberg, of course. We're also going to be covering UFC BJJ. Also exclusivity inside Brazilian Jiu jitsu and drug testing as well guys

welcome to this special episode of the mighty debate but before this debate gets going what let you guys know this episode of the Mighty Cast is sponsored by Price Picks. Now Price Picks is a daily fantasy sports game you play directly from your phone. It's very simple. Go to your app store, download Price Picks.

And when you do that, use my promo code, Mighty Cast. Cool promotion going on right now. You play $5 in your lineup, you're gonna get $50 in your lineup. When you look at the event board, they have everything under the sun.

They have the NFL, they have MLB, they have NHL, they have Valorant, CSGO, you name it, they got it. Get in the game at the right place, which is Price Picks. Shout out to Price Picks for sponsoring this amazing episode of the Mighty Cast. Now, let us enjoy this debate between the two great jujitsu athletes,

Craig Jones and Mikey Misimichi. Enjoy. What is going on ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Mighty Cast. And this Mighty Cast is a little bit different. We have a Mighty Debate against two of the best grapplers in the world.

I'm going to introduce the very first one. They call this man the savior of Jiu Jitsu. He has put on an amazing event, CJI1. Now he's also doing the CJI2. Please help me welcome in Craig Jones. So I didn't have any like fans or any shit like that.

So welcome, welcome. And the person he's gonna be debating is, he is one of the best rappers in the world. He is the most winning champion in America that I've been told. Please help me welcome Mikey Misimichi.

He got it clap.

Don't bring it on the motherfucking camera, God damn it, you woo. Hey.

What's up Mr. Jones?

What's up Mr. Mikey?

Nice glasses.

Thank you very much.

I like we're sitting like this, I feel taller.

You're both taller than me, aye.

Our torsos. I like we're sitting like this, I feel taller. You're both taller than me, eh? Our torsos. I've got a long torso, so we're like the same height right now.

Let's start a Gabby interview.

Okay, well, gentlemen, I have you two here today, and I've had you on the Mighty Cast, thank you for your time. I've had you on the? Now, before you guys answer, I want you to speak. I want you to speak. And then we can both, all three of us can engage in the conversation. I want every gentleman. Yes, me too. Well, that's why I figured if Mikey

interrupts, he has to do a shot of tequila. Oh, that is a good one. That is actually really good. All right, I'm not interrupting.

Okay, all right.

We should start with one.

Would you like to start with one later on?

Let's just get warmed up.

It's 10 a.m.

We're not all crazy like you, Craig. But since you tried to put one on Mikey, Mikey, I'm gonna let you start first. Do you think exclusivity and Jiu-Jitsu is a good thing?

I think exclusivity and Jiu-Jitsu is important if the organization could actually back what they say, right? If they could give you a certain amount of matches, a salary for those matches, they give you the marketing to grow your brand and exposure, like long-term, like growing your brand, then I think it's important. If they can't do that, then I think it's horrible. I think that exclusivity saves athletes from pulling out of events from other events. You know, I think that's very important

because what stops some millionaire giving an Australian money to poach people from an event? So then they can't do their event. What stops that from happening without exclusivity? So I think that that's important because of some of those reasons I just said.

Okay. Craig, do you think exclusivity in Jiu-Jitsu is a good thing? Obviously UFC, BJJ, and I know who's number one, and I believe there's a couple other ones that have exclusivity, but how do you feel about that contract binding down the

athlete? I mean, it's good if they get paid, but UFC, BJJ has one good athlete in each weight division. So there's no good, interesting matches they can book. Who's your next opponent, Mikey?

I'm not, I'm not allowed to say.

What's his caliber, top 10?

Yes.

Top 10, top five?

Yes.

Top 10, top five in nogi or in gi?

Has he competed in nogi before?

Absolutely. I don't want to interrupt you, sorry. You don't want to interrupt you. Sorry.

Well, you asked me a question, so I didn't. So it's a good opponent.

Yes, sir.

But for the most part, do UFC BJJ have the best athletes, enough good athletes to warrant exclusive contracts?

Well, I think you want me to answer? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think it's more about not having enough good athletes. Is exclusivity good for jujitsu, right? Like, I don't ever forget what Shio-san has said. I want to fight the easy—I want to make as much money as possible and fight the easiest athlete in the world.

That's fine.

I don't think it has anything to do with exclusivity of it, but does—do you think it harms the sport? It is more on the lines of the question.

For sure. I mean, if the exclusive contracts prevent the best from facing the best, then what's the point of everyone being separated into different organizations? I think it holds it back. Like you were going to face one of the best, but you ended up having to go with a gi guy who had never competed in nogi before, right?

I mean, Craig, your biggest title is Purple Belt Nogi Worlds, right?

Pretty big.

It's pretty big. Ivy did you have Purple Belt Nogi Worlds? So I'm just saying that I think that...

Cheers to that.

Cheers. But also, I don't want to interrupt you, so if I'm interrupting ever please stop me. You may speak now. You did, you did. But you asked me a question! So anytime I interrupt you guys please stop me I'm really working on this interview guys not interrupting anyone here I respect both of them and I don't want to interrupt them so we're

gonna learn I'm gonna learn how to not interrupt with you guys and I'll take shots if I mess up. This was his fourth. Go ahead. He asked you a question about the athlete that you faced, his caliber.

Yes. So what I'll say is I think that the majority of Gi people are better than no Gi. Why I say that is, remember Craig before ADCC? I met you, we trained at Dunham's Gym. You were getting ready for ADCC, it was like six months before and I was not a no Gi guy, I just only trained Gi

I think the majority of Gi guys kind of killed in no-gi people Excluding Gordon Ryan. He's kind of he's the only no-gi guy that actually like is the rule to that exception So I just wanted a good opponent. He just beat baby shark. I was trying to get baby shark for months Because of the exclusive contract problem. But then he went exclusive with one, signed the one to fight me,

but then wouldn't fight me that whole time, only did who's number one that whole time. So I was kind of just lost trying to get an opponent. So what Craig said is valid that we need better opponents, right? And that's a problem right now.

And I agree with you. I don't think you're wrong. But I think with time, we could create something where we have the best opponents and I do wanna fight the best opponents. I just want us all to get paid and I want the most exposure.

I want the most viewership and that's why I loved what you did with CGI, the first one. You got more viewership and exposure for athletes, right? And I've been a fan of CGI, I literally was going to fight for free, for charity and do a free seminar when I wasn't able to. I've been supporting his second event. So I'm a proponent of us just getting the most exposure and publicity.

You know, if CGI does that for everyone, amazing. Like that's great. You grow our sport. But UFC is just another option for people that if you want to compete with me, you want to get the most exposure beating me, come to UFC. But what if they don't offer good money to your opponents? Are they getting better money elsewhere?

A million dollars, potentially.

So how many people are there in Jiu Jitsu? A huge amount, right? And only two people have made the million dollars, like you said, and that's great for them, Cade and Nikki, they did amazing, right? But didn't your first event lose millions of dollars doing that? So you lost money from an investor doing that. So is that actually a successful event? It's successful because you helped our sport grow making money,

but how can we do that? How could that sustain anything long term?

Well, I think it's successful because the UFC copied it. So it's only if you have a shot. Come on, have one shot with me.

I haven't interrupted yet. I will interrupt you for sure.

That's kind of, that's on the line.

You raised my hand.

Go, go, all right.

So you said that it wasn't, CGI isn't, it's not successful over a long period of time. And I think when you talked, that wasn't your goal. Your goal was to change the sport of Jiu Jitsu.

Yeah, the first one was to change the sport of Jiu Jitsu. Obviously the second one, if we were to sell the streaming rights, we would easily make a profit off it. So it would be a sustainable business. So I kind of feel like we could prove that for the second one, but we're electing to keep it live and free on YouTube. So it is, in my opinion, a sustainable business model

in which athletes could have their exclusive contracts and still challenge the best grapplers in a CGI-like format.

Oh, okay.

You may speak now, Mikey.

I'm really trying not to interrupt you if you notice. Okay, so No, no What I want to show you is this picture because you said that we stole the rules from CGI for the UFC beach Right, and I was advocating this for you every interview I did I was like Craig deserves recognition Please look at this picture. This is from UFC fight pass Invitational 4 in 2003 a year before CGI 2013 or two two 2000 and, one second, 2023.

2023, okay, so two years ago.

This is the rule set for that, I'll pass it to both of you, and then let me continue talking.

Just for the camera, you guys can see, it says, judges rule sets, three four minute rounds, 10 point must score system, scoring based on aggression, macro troll, takedowns and submission escapes. Deductions for stalling.

Scores announced at the end of each round.

Show them it. And then let me continue.

Can I do this?

Once I finish my thought and then I'll let you talk.

I'm not going to interrupt you. Unless you want to take a god damn shot.

I'm going to need one if that's going to be a long thought.

I do talk a long time. Okay, continue. Okay, so you'll show this on the screen, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'll send you this after if you want.

Yes, sir.

All right. So this was a year before CGI, and it looks pretty identical to the rules except four minute rounds instead of five. Even the score announced at the end of each round looks pretty similar.

Now, I would say Craig maybe didn't know that this existed but he was the main event on this card this was the co-main event

well obviously I took the UFC's 10-point bus system if that if that had been successful at the time if they thought that was a great idea why did they not

run with it my oh can I talk yeah no, yeah. Okay, okay. So what I'm saying is that yes, Craig did a great event with CGI. The rules are the best for sure. And I'm giving you credit on every interview

saying that, even though you nuke me every time you talk on an interview. Texting you is really cool though. I really like talking to you outside of interviews, but...

Good call, bad outside of interviews, but... Good call back home.

Yeah.

But, um, if he even did the scores announced each round. So Craig says that UFC stole the idea from Craig, but at this event, a UFC executive behind the scenes, Craig even asked him, he said, this is a really interesting rule set that you're doing. And he said, Oh, it's good for the MMA audience to understand the rules and stuff. And then Craig used that for CJI. So my question is, did we really, we, UFC, I'm not UFC at all, but I'm an athlete there. Did the UFC really copy Craig if they did

this first, excluding the one minute? Should they apologize publicly for changing it from four minutes to five? You did innovate four to five. I will take credit for that.

But I think, I mean, obviously they stole the concept, right? In terms of they did that. Do you think I waited, what, five years? I was like, fuck, that was a good idea. Let me wait five years and cook on their ruleset and do something better.

Like in terms of, do you think without CGI1, would be using those rules or a pit-like structure? Oh, oh.

Could you wink at me when you want me to talk? Cause I don't want to ever.

I would say, I would say, I think.

I don't want to give you mixed messages with a wink, you know?

Mixed signals.

I think with, I truly believe if CJI won, did not have the pit and was not that successful, it was fucking successful and a lot of people loved it. I don't think the UFC would have copied it because you look at what the UFC had before in the Invitational, it was a flat mat, flat mat, right?

Then obviously Karate Combat, they had the pit style and a lot of fans loved that. And then when you did it, it really pushed the pace with Njie Taket, Levi Jones versus Cade. So I feel like if you didn't do it, I think it would still be that flat structure whatsoever.

So I, you know, even though I have no stake in this claim, whatever, I would like to say, I think the UFC did copy that, that structure of the pit.

Oh, okay. So no, definitely Craig's event, definitely had an impact on everyone like doing something successful, right? It was the most exciting format for grappling I've said this in every interview about Craig that he deserves recognition for that, right? But I do think that if UFC did his exact rulesetting Craig copied and pasted it pretty much with the score each round and like

That rule said he was inspired by UFC for sure for that rule set and The karate combat pit Craig is just a licensee Seth is a licensee Craig is not even on the paper for licensee it's like LFA for example don't drag Seth into this come on oh but you're just not on the paper I'm sorry I don't I'm not okay okay but if you're a licensee for something if you're a licensee you can't even sue anyone only the patent owner

can sue anyone right karate combat has a patent on the pit. Typical UFC behavior. He's already talking lawsuits, you know what I mean? But you said I can't read anything because I didn't know my contract for one, remember?

I remember that. You did say that. You did tell me you didn't read it.

Okay. Do you want me to continue this or? I'll respond to that after before to After you giving me crap for that I have to respond to that after well, let's continue this Yes, yeah, we're patent owner. So the patent owner is the only one that can sue someone Yeah, so LFA uses an octagon for example. Yep. So if someone uses an octagon LFA cannot because they're a licensee Yeah, they're not the patent owner only UFC could sue someone for the octagon. Yes So Craig used the pit from karate combat. He used the pit from Karate Kombat, he used the rules from UFC, so he combined two great concepts together and Karate Kombat is on UFC Fight Pass also.

Yep. So what exactly did Craig innovate besides having a successful event in terms of being exciting to watch? Not in terms of money. You don't think CGI 1

completely changed the landscape of professional grappling. I just said that.

But you don't think that they're doing that because of CGI 1? You think that completely changed the landscape of professional grappling. I just said that.

But you don't think that they're doing that because of CGI One, you think that it's separate. You're talking about lawsuits and patent holders.

No, I keep saying that you had a huge impact on everyone, but I do think that if you do a rule set that was literally from a car that you were on and complain that the people use their rule set again after you made it like cooler and better and then they tried doing the same thing.

Thank you again.

I give you credit.

Guys, I've never.

I know you give me credit.

The USC needs to give me credit, Mikey. But they used it first. Of course they used it first. They did the 10 point mask system for MMA like if there's no question they used to defer but in grappling they used it four minutes So rather legally that's different

You changed it by one minute Craig deserves recognition from UFC for changing it by one you give me one minute of recognition

That's him. I

always recognize you And when I signed with UFC I Even said like Craig did the best rule set like that with CGI event was the best like I love that event I was a fan I'm a fan of it I'm still a fan I'm supporting CGI too on Instagram I've even posting like I'm getting killed by this guy in line I'm still supporting him you know like I'm a fan of what they're doing I want them to grow the sport if they grow the sport everyone wins you know but I think UFC is just

another option for people that if they do UFC that that's great, just don't bully us if we do UFC and we want a platform where we could actually grow our brand more. Oh, we'll get into that after, but.

If they give me what I promise, that's what it comes down to. If they give me what I promise, because people promise shit all the time, right? But if, they do, but if they never come to the table with the food, you're locked down right like we're not gonna see

Andrew Tackett in CGI too right that's you know it is what it is

he wasn't allowed to after I turned down the coaching role unfortunately I wanted

to coach against you that would have been fine so you're saying if you were to coach against Mikey they would have allowed you they would allow Andrew Tackett to compete in your event yes Yes, yes. They would have allowed anyone.

Oh, well, go ahead.

Careful with the angle of that, man.

Oh, just don't speak German.

You know what? In today's society, that shit will come out. I was like, Mike is a fucking racist.

Look at him. My palm was like this, okay?

Yeah.

Where like the angle is fine.

Yeah. Ugly defensive, but go on. The geometry.

Go on.

Oh, sorry. My ADHD. Yeah, I remember. I remember. So, yes, if Craig would have done the show with me, he would have been able to, we would have all been able to do CGI, but he would have been with UFC CGI. So that was a part of the deal. Him signing UFC with CGI, and that was a part of the deal him signing UFC would say CJI and that was a part of the deal that they would Be all of us would be able to do the teams and a part of CGI. Mmm

It was separate we had never negotiated officially They've thrown money at us terrible money for the streaming rights to CGI But the ultimate fighter reality show was separate deal

Gotcha, so what you're saying is that they offered you money to coach.

Yeah. They basically told us for nine months that like, no, you're not competition. Any of our guys can do it. Like we're not going to hold them back. CGI is separate. It's live and free on YouTube.

As long as it's not behind a paywall, all our athletes can do it. And then they offered me they did, Mikey.

Do you think if you would have did that, can other athletes outside of UFC do CGI? Because you think about it, if you had all the UFC roster at CGI and then you brought in like Mika, who's number one, you have one championship, those guys, or do you think if that was, you went that route, do you think one championship would allow their guys to compete under a UFC, you know, I don't wanna say it's sponsored by the UFC,

but I would say UFC has their, their claws in there.

Yeah, I mean, it would have been difficult, I think. Like if it would have been on Fight Pass, no One Championship athletes or no Float Grappling athletes would have been able to do it. As it stands, free on YouTube, Float Grappling athletes can do it, so can One Championship. Respect to One Championship, I didn't think they were going to do that initially. And now it's just UFC BJJ athletes that really can't do our event. And I think given it's live and free on YouTube, it's a singular event here. It's, we're not creating a league that's a rival. I just felt like it was a petty move to rob the athletes they've signed from a fun opportunity to compete.

It is a risk for them. Obviously one championship allowed the Rotolos in. Ty got injured. It is a risk.

Yep.

Yeah. So I agree with Craig that it's a risk. You know, I was supposed to fight Cade like three weeks after that, but then Cade got injured also from the event. So then I didn't get to have the match with Cade.

He got that million. He got that million.

He went on vacation.

Yeah, he went to get that million. I was there. He won that million.

He goes, ah, boys, I got injured doing a CJI match. So doing other matches got them injured before they could do my set match with them. So you see how exclusivity is sometimes important because if you have a set match with someone, you're training for them, doing a camp, and this guy goes to another event,

a million dollars or getting injured, they could pull out of that match potentially from something else.

Yeah.

I agree, but it's once a year. Plan your events around it. Give your athletes a shot at a million. It's once a year. Plan your event around it.

And I think with exclusivity, you can lock them. I think Craig's OK with exclusivity. I think he is OK. If it's the right woman. If it's the right amount of money. But the question is, are they paying the right amount of money? It's like Francis Ngano, when he left the UFC, he was like, I'm going to go to PFL. If someone's going to fight me, I'm going to make two million, and you're going to make

a million. In mixed martial arts, you have a guy might make fuckin' 30 and 30, or 40 and 40, right?

That 10 and 10 contender series, that's a lot of money, brother.

Yeah, it's a lot of price, yeah. I told people, I was like, when you do taxes, you pay your coaches, training camp, you're left with maybe six, maybe six or $8,000, right? It's exclusive contract allows an athlete to make as much money as possible and they don't have to fight anywhere else I think he's worried that once they lock him down

Can you explain the monopoly side? I think the biggest thing is like where the way the UFC is going it could potentially be a monopoly in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Yeah, because it's it's starting to take a lot of the good grapplers and then eventually Once they have all the grapplers, there's no place for you guys to go grapple and then you have no leverage in order to be able to say what you want.

We're kind of dealing with right now on mixed martial arts.

Don't get him started on leverage. You do realize if everyone signs with UFC BJJ, you have no leverage to really negotiate your contract because there's nowhere else to go.

So I definitely agree with you. And I agree both of you that if it's an exclusive contract, they better actually give you in return what you're being exclusive, right? They better give you a certain amount of fights. They better give you good money.

They better give you the opportunities to compete so you're not stuck without matches and just tied down. Now I can only speak for my experience as a competitor, right? I did the IBJJF circuit my whole life, then I did Who's Number One, then I did One Championship, then I did UFC now. And why I wanted to go to the UFC was I saw the good in all of the things I did in my life,

and I wanted to change that for the next generation. So we get the good of IBJJF. What's the good of IBJJF? All the best compete with each other in one place, right? Like when you're a world champion IBJJF you fight the best like my whole career in the gi, I'm a gi person

I wouldn't know

He said I wouldn't know

Why you gotta twist an arm, I gotta drink again

My whole career in the gi I had to compete with the best people in my whole career in the Gui, I had to compete with the best people in my whole life. Bruno Malfacini, Diego Pato, all these guys I competed with and won in my career. Now, IBGF has that element, but there's no money in IBGF or competing. So you win worlds, you're like, okay, I'm getting no followers, I'm getting nothing. Then I went to Who's Number One, and it was becoming more of that format where you could actually build divisions and things. And it was really cool how Flow Grappling

did that at the time. Then I went to one championship and they took it to another level with more legitimacy like drug testing, certain things like that. And then I wanted to go to UFC

to combine all these things together in one where we have a platform where there's multiple events. UFC wants to do eight to 12 events a year. Wait, I didn't interrupt anyone. 8 to 12 events a year. They want to have drug testing. They want to have sustainability long-term. Can CJI maintain this long-term? Maybe you can, but we don't know. Can UFC maintain this long-term? Could you tell me for a fact that UFC has the budget, has everything in order to maintain

this long-term? Can they? Yes or no?

They have the money, but will they continue to take losses on the event? I don't know.

So I spoke to UFC about this personally, because the problem is in grappling my whole life, all these pop up events come up and there's random money like ACB, for example, they had great money. All these different random things will come up and it's great in the short run. But it's not sustainable. Like you always feel like, oh, well, I have an event to compete in while I make money and then it disappears, goes bankrupt because they're all losing money.

Right.

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for free. Shout out to ExpressVPN for sponsoring this episode of the Mighty Cast. Now, let us get back to our guest.

Speaking of money.

If you told me I would have wore it with you, we could have been twins.

Well, I got the 3XL, I figured both you boys could fit in this. I'm not fitting anything with him. Someone has to wear it. Guys, speaking of money What did he pay you?

Can I respond? Yeah. Oh Okay, so Guys so oh oh

Now he's gonna have a shot. I didn't interrupt.

He asked me to respond and then he took a shot.

I think you kinda did, Mikey.

I think you did.

How did I interrupt?

You did.

You gotta have one, you gotta have one. Come on, one, just one.

I'll interrupt eventually, but I still haven't. I deserve recognition. All right, you don't have a shop you at least have to wear this What would you prefer to wear the moneyberg rash guard or take a shot of lovely tequila I have not done anything to violate my drink yet Once I violate it, I'll own up to it. I have to do the ultimatum. Don't use violate and drinking in the same sentence Okay, so How much did I get paid, right?

So, I do private lessons, and I like to make money. Now, Derek, I didn't give him his black belt. A lot of people believe I gave him his black belt. Uh, he got his black belt from other people, so his level- I didn't do anything, right? Oh, okay. His- his level, you could ask the people that gave him his black belt, right? I went there three times.

He was nice to me every time I went. I've seen the videos you guys have seen. I've seen the videos that you guys have seen as well. He definitely does not look like a black belt when he's physically doing those positions. He trains with the best guys though,

like Glavit Tashere, Leota Machida, Royce Gracie, Gordon Ryan, all these guys every day, right? So he does have a lot of knowledge. Can he physically do those things, the knowledge? Because every time I go, he shows me something like Royce Gracie does a triangle like this. And I'm like, oh, that's really cool. I never seen that. So he always shows me different things like that.

Now, can he do that at a high level or like someone like Nicky Rod? Can he write a book? He impresses me. He does those moves with socks on. There's no grip. I don't know how he does it. It gives him more friction.

There's more friction in socks.

Of course. No, but can he do that? Can he do that at a high level? No, but can he write a book? Probably, but anyways, he's just hardworking. He's dedicated.

Would you read it? I can't read. Well, not contracts. You told me I can't read. Not contracts, but maybe a Moneyberg book.

But you told me I can't read. You'd have to read it to me like my nighttime bed story.

If you want it, I don't know. A few more tequilas and I will.

And by the way, Michael, when'm not against money, but either you, we both like money. Do you agree? Could we agree on that?

Not that much, but yeah.

I mean, I didn't give him his black belt.

You wore the rash guard though.

Oh yeah.

What was that, extra?

Extra large or?

Cost extra?

No, the three times I went, I wore his rash guard. But anyways, he's very dedicated and he's-

Did you get paid extra to wear the rash guard is the question.

Oh!

You need it, you need it, mate.

I didn't do anything.

You need it, come one shot for the boys. Get some respect. I didn't do anything. People will love you. People will love you if you slam a tequila. It's okay, Mikey, it's okay.

Oh, now you're pushing me to drink? You have to drink with me though.

I've already had two, but.

Oh.

Father Johnson believes it's okay.

I'll do one with him.

Cheers with me, cheers with me.

I will.

This is for the kindness of Jiu Jitsu, I never hated Craig, I never say I do. This guy hates me publicly, but online, I mean on the phone he's nice. But he feels that you aligned yourself with the UFC BJJ and I think that's where it is.

You've done a deal with the devil my friend, me too.

I can't salute to that. Cheers to us trying to grow Jiu Jitsu together.

And money back. Cheers to us growing J. No, cheers to Gronk, to Dizzy.

Okay, Ken? Ken La.

Respect, respect.

There you go.

Okay.

Now I'm drunk, guys.

Now he's vulnerable.

Now, we went off a tangent there, okay? Obviously, Moneyberg, I think-

You wore the rash guard too.

I didn't wear the rash guard he offered guys Now you just fucking interrupt me You guys don't let me finish my thought for me for I was still talking okay, that's one time Mikey. I'm sorry

I'm my turn. I'm leaving for today now guys. I'm sorry for interrupting. That's my only time

Well, what would I have to pay you to wear the rash guard for this podcast? Hypothetically your rash guard know the money bag one. Oh

Do you have a rash guard for the event?

Yeah, I'm gonna wear money bags

Guys He's a hobbyist that likes to get to he's dedicated that I give him his black belt No, when I give anyone their black bone three and a half years. No, no, I Say he's not I just like that. He's dedicated and working hard and growing like, and, and bringing people in he's work. Like he's trying to get better. Like he, he's two years booked for people coming to the gym. He doesn't plan on having a gym. Like is he, does he study juj belt? Is he a black belt? According to your standards.

According to my standards, again, I would not give anyone a black belt in three and a half years, but you could ask his instructors if he's a black belt. The people that gave him his belt, Glover Tashere, Leona Machida, Royce Gracie, all those guys, Jake Shields,

you could ask. Jake Shields. That's a tough one. You train with Jake a lot, right? It is, but I mean, he's podcasting, tough listen. That's what I mean. Oh, I do. Honestly, the money back thing. Can you help me explain it? Because it feels like people go on the podcast just to listen to him talk and they just look absent in life. Like, what's the concept behind it? So it's what it's working.

Yeah, I've gone on the podcast. He did. He did offer me to train him and I said no because I'm so busy. I did wear the shirt when I don't think I got extra for wearing the shirt though. It wasn't a rash guard.

Get the negotiator on board next time, man.

No, no, no. How much did you get?

The rash guard?

Did you wear the rash guard? Was it actually 2k, 3k, 5k? I can't disclose. Okay, so you might have got five or 10K, but I went on his podcast and I thought the podcast was good because he was talking about ... No, when we went through it, it's about being consistent and what makes a champion, right? Being consistent, staying focused.

Wearing socks.

Wearing socks? I would never wear fucking socks under that. Black socks. Black socks. I would never, but ... Not white, black. Maybe he's got some ugly toes. I have no idea. But I think when I went, my first initial thought is when he got his black belt, just like the rest of the community of Jiu Jitsu,

was like, for me, what's a black belt? Like I went with a purple belt the other day. He was 18. He was like 22 years old. And he was whooping my ass. I was like, damn, I've only been in the Gif for about three or four years, right? But I've trained mixed martial arts my whole time. So can somebody get their black belt in three and a half years?

I have no idea.

It's the prices, right? Obviously.

Yeah, well, I guess so.

The prices, right?

Yes, Mikey, you may speak.

So what I think this brought up in Jiu Jitsu is that we need a test, aed test in order to actually like declare if someone's a black belt or not, because it's too controversial. Like, oh, this person's rating is they're a black belt. This person's rating is they're a black belt. If you go to law school, medical school, they have tests, right? So if we had a test to do that,

then we would solve this Moneyberg problem. All these different things would be solved. I think that this just brings light to that community because there are a lot of black balls that would never pass a test for a black ball right yeah speaking of tests I did bring a test with me today

because I think you I may be exploiting a community for your advantage I have

ten questions for you oh my god we'll answer these questions and we'll move on I think this is very important he wants wants to be an autism test. Craig Jones, a savior of Jiu Jitsu. He's become Dr. Jones on the spot.

I often notice small sounds when others do not. Definitely agree. Slightly agree. Slightly disagree.

Definitely disagree. Sorry, I'm a little slow. Can you just repeat it?

Well, I mean, yeah, we could do the quick.

Oh, I can actually fill it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Often notice sounds when others do not I'm only doing this because Phil Roe accused you of exaggerating your autism Oh, oh when my walk on that fight, right? Yeah when you got lost, yeah So basically what happened with can I tell you guys what happened that or do you want me to fill this out? I've ADHD so I lose track a lot. I've already failing this test You don't even need to from that. So what happened with that was during Ultimate Fighter, when we filmed the show that Craig

should have been at with me, which I'm really sad about still, I think we would have had fun together. But what happened was when we did the show, you get checked like this and you walk to the sides of the bowl pit, which is...

Oh, what is it?

Don't say the P word.

Don't say the P word. That's what they did say that on the broadcast, right?

We first called it Octopit,

and then we're like, oh, we can't say that.

Why?

Why?

Because somebody else owns-

Karate Combat.

Owns, okay, got it.

And they gave a license to Craig for it. Yep. But we didn't have the license for it. I just wanted to make sure I understood. So the viewers... And Craig made the pit mainstream, like what he did. Yeah. I always give you credit. But anyways, I walk to the sides. I go up the stairs like during the show. Yep. When I got to this one, I'm like, OK, I'm going to walk to the side.

They're like, Mike, you know, we added a middle piece. turning right to the side. So they set you up. They set me up for my autism.

So they're exploiting you.

Now, do I think that when you change your jiu-jitsu a lot of years, it makes you more autistic and a bit more gay? Yes? I might have gotten more of the tism but you definitely went the other way, right?

I mean, for Moneyberg money, I would.

But you won't tell us how much. So anyways, anyways, yeah, it made me look way worse when I went to the side, but I just was following the show. At that moment when I compete, I'm always really nervous and like shaking and I'm, I'm really blind actually. That's one thing. If you did a blind test, I'm pretty blind.

So I'm usually shaking and I can't see what lights on me. So turning, I wasn't acting there. Now do I sometimes on videos, like make like stupid videos just for stupidity? Yes, just like you.

Why are you pointing at me?

Oh yeah, I've never seen you make a stupid video. We both haven't.

You got some great videos.

Your videos are great.

He's hilarious. He's really funny. I think that's where it took like, like we said before when I knew a podcast, I felt like your stardom took off when you started doing these outlandish videos of you taking videos. And then you're very sneaky about how you hide your little ass cheeks in the videos, right?

And I think it just went.

How much are you looking at as well?

I did three takes. Every take, I was like, God, that tan just seems so fucking off. Why is it great tan and fucking. I like the sizing you're throwing up there as well.

You're about what, six to maybe

proportionate.

Proportionate.

I like where we're sitting, though. My torso is long. It makes us look more of the same height.

All right, next question.

Can you do this?

You actually want me to do it.

I do it? I'll do it. I do it do it

I'm his PA assistant. I already have the prerequisite. I've been doing jitsu too long. You have the other prerequisite. I have this prerequisite Mikey do you notice sounds when others do not?

I don't know. I'm gonna go in the middle. I'm gonna say uh...

Strongly agree Slightly agree, okay, strongly agree. I hear things

a little slightly agree.

Okay. Um, do you, uh, concentrate more than, uh, on the whole picture rather than small details?

Depends the situation.

Depends on the situation.

So what do you say you slightly agree? I see the big picture, like long-term plan that they have, but the details, the short-term plan matter, like is worried about they matter and if they do deliver on the short-term things the long-term plan could happen but I do think that we UFC has to be watched right you can't just immediately jump to them because it's UFC I think that they have to show everyone that they're legit they're

gonna do all the things that they promise and then if they do all the things that they promise then I think you could be less critical. Is that fair to say?

That's fair to say.

Okay. So would you like to say slightly disagree?

So you see, I'm not extreme. Like I'm not extreme. I'm pretty middle ground.

Again, careful with those extreme hands.

I'm going to get it cancelled.

What was the question again?

I usually concentrate more on the whole picture rather than the small details. Well, it's not, yeah, I mean, pit versus octobowl, is that a small detail? Is that a big picture thing?

I mean, we just didn't have a license for the pit, so we changed it a little bit.

It made it cooler.

Do you know, they did message us after the event to say, hey, what are the dimensions of that pit?

Like structure?

I mean, you took the rules. That's the least they could do. They literally you literally took their rules verbatim even the name of the round like the points at the end of the round he took

Verbatim what would make you feel better? The US said these rules set was produced and made by Craig Jones. They could have just put me in the Hall of Fame

You know, honestly

Well, there you go

Are you you and that you're in the Hall of Fame, right? No See the UFC has shown this man. I sure I'm sure it will happen one day. It will happen one day, but it will be God's time when you might tell me in the UFC.

You definitely deserve to be in the hall of fame. You're goaded MMA.

I'll go slightly disappearing that one.

Are you at all worried about being traded back to one?

Like what happened with Mighty. I would love, I love Asia. So if they send me back to one, I get to be in Asia.

Nice dodge, respect.

I find it easy to do more than one thing at once.

It's only 10 questions.

Only 10.

Oh, it's only 10. Okay. I thought it was three pages.

That's why.

No, no, no, no. That's that was the more detailed test, but yeah.

Yeah. That was the more detailed test. Yeah, yeah. We don't want to go there. OK, OK. Do you find it easy to do more than one thing at once?

No, I suck at multitasking.

Oh, man.

I really bad at HD. That's one thing for sure.

So then we'll see. You definitely agree. I find it easy. No, you don't. So OK. what I was doing very quickly. Oh, of course. No, strongly disagree. Strongly.

But I've been, well, I've been good this time, right? Like I'm not interrupting you guys. Like I'm really working on it.

Only because we had to threaten you, mate, with a good time.

Yeah, that might be.

Should we do one more for the test?

I find it easy to read between the lines where someone- He didn't read his contract, strongly disagree. Let's go on now, let's talk about his contract.

Can I explain myself now then with that?

Okay, let's talk about that. Go ahead, Mikey. Craig keeps bringing this up, he's saying you can't read your contract, and I need to understand the context behind this situation. We'll get to this.

At the end of this show, we'll diagnose you. What movie was it where he's like, I can't read too good. What movie was that? Tropic Thunder, Waterboy, one of those movies. Anyways, that was a reference in my mind for what you're saying, but.

Give him another tequila shot.

Add some on this.

Extra 10 points.

Extra 10, I already failed. But when I said that to you during that time,, I knew my contract that I couldn't do the event, but I was so passionate about what you were doing, I just wanted to talk to one privately about doing your event. And I didn't want to be disrespectful or say to you, like, I can't do it. So I just said, oh, I haven't read my contract.

Was it completely truthful? No, I did read my contract. I just didn't want to tell you I didn't, that I read it because I wanted to talk to one to see if I could do it. I called him like, please let me do it. I want to be a part of this event.

I really believe in what you're doing.

So you lied to me.

I lied. That was on the thing. You lie to me every day. I love you on a billion shots.

I love how you went into this full context. You're like, yeah, you know, I read the contract. I just did read the contract, but I didn't want you to know that I read the contract. I fucking lied to you, but I don't want you to. But I didn't want to just say no on the spot. I wanted to talk to one and be like, hey guys, please.

Like I really believe in what he's doing.

I want to be a part of it.

So you strung me along like the rest of the women in your life, Mikey.

But did I offer you when I couldn't do the event that I'll do a free seminar for all the people in the crowd?

I tried to get him a good match. But then his boss told the other boss to go fuck himself.

You're talking about his boss at one at the time or?

His new boss.

Oh. Let me just, I won't name names but Middle Pop. Don't laugh at that mate, you're getting in trouble. Oh.

No, so, can I talk? Okay. Oh, no, so, can I talk? Okay, no, me and Craig were working really hard to get that match done. And I was willing to do it free for charity, just to like support the event.

Like I was really passionate about the event. And then when I wasn't allowed to do the event, I instantly said to Craig, I'll do a free seminar for everyone in the crowd just to support your event, even if I'm exclusive and can't do your event So I think that that should be on record how much sellout Mikey was to you even when I was exclusive I wanted to help your event. But wait

Why could you not do the event was it because of one or the UFC?

Both because it depended on the opponent that I was doing with UFC for one to accept. But the opponent I offered you one was cool with, right? Oh, yeah. One was cool because it would grow my brand and help them. Right. So I think it depends on if it grows my brand or not, and they could benefit the exclusive people. Right. So that just comes back to our conversation about different exclusive places like Tackett, Ritolo, Mika.

One is FLOW, one is one championship, one is UFC, right? So if they're benefiting from it, I think that they'll jump in because Volkanovski is so famous, right? He's a huge name. So of course one would like be okay with that Even though I still had to fight to do your event and I did put my neck on the line Fighting when I lied to you. It was a it was a loving lie so I could try to do your event. I was like arguing, like I really worked hard to try to do your event. But then the other side didn't let me, right? Like they didn't let that match happen.

That was against my control.

That monopoly hammer came coming down on your head.

It's just the exclusive problem with all the different exclusive places.

So then is exclusive good for Rizwin Jitsu?

If Craig had a chance...

Back to the relationship question, right?

That's the hardest thing because, man, I'm not gonna lie, like, I feel that exclusive could be good if everybody got paid so fucking well but then you do lock down all the athletes where they can't do anything, right? I mean that's the biggest thing, like, you just never know if it's gonna work out. Because you're going on the whim of the promotion actually giving what they said, right?

They're doing what they said. And, you know, if you look at UFC's track record, how many times does that athlete, I'm gonna get, how many, you look at Corey Anderson. For example, Corey Anderson just said that he didn't get a title shot in the UFC because his social media wasn't at the right point where it's going to be, right?

That's where you're getting at. Go ahead, Corey, it joins you.

Kennedy is a dear friend of yours, right? How would you feel if Claudia went backstage after your match to tell you it was too boring? How do you feel about promoters doing that?

Okay.

Claudia was wrong for doing that to Kennedy. Kennedy did an amazing match and UFC after spoke to Kovrigian and Kennedy and said that that was wrong of them to do. This is their second event. So they're learning.

I had problems with that in the past. What you just said, like it's, I actually have trauma from that, from different experiences where every match I'm horrified that if I don't submit the match fast enough that I'm gonna get in trouble, right? So I bet you've experienced that as well.

Like we just lived in these super fight events.

I have no shame, but.

I'm really sensitive as you see. But, so I think that that's horrible to make anyone feel that if you're not submitting the person fast enough that you'll get kicked out or anything. And that should not be in any Jiu Jitsu event. I think that the more high level a match is, the closer it's going to be. And I think that that might not be good for the MMA crowd, but for us Jiu Jitsu nerds,

it's important that we have the highest level people. And if it's a high level match, you have to expect that some of the matches is not going to be a finish. And that puts way less pressure on the athlete and they could probably finish more matches if they had that

less pressure. Typical women with unrealistic expectations, right?

Absolutely.

What's going on guys? This episode of the Minded Cast is sponsored by FirstForm. Right here is a FirstForm whey protein level one. I don't even take this after I get done training. The whey protein is top notch. The best way to describe how they process their protein, I always think of it as a chicken in a crock pot.

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and that's gonna get you guys hooked up and anything over $100. If you purchase something that's over $100, it is free shipping and there's a 30 day try period. If you guys don't like it within 30 days, you'll get a 100% refund back.

But I guarantee you guys are gonna love First Form because I love it and I've been a First Form athlete for two years. Shout out to First Form for sponsoring this episode of the Mighty Cast. Now, let us get back to our guest. Well, I think at the end of the day,

when it comes, it blurs that line of sport and entertainment, right? If a person, because like you said, if you start getting matches against the best of the best in the world, you're going to have those problems. I don't want to call it a problem.

You're going to have the match be so damn high level. It's like wrestling, watching at a very high level. A lot of people don't enjoy watching because they're so fucking good. They're evenly matched. So if you start getting guys that are evenly matched

against you or Kennedy or you know, Andrew Tackett, they're gonna be In some people's eyes boring. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what Claudia doesn't have spare time

But we can't hit home runs every time. You know what I mean?

I agree 100% as a competitor you and me both understand that that like It's so much pressure on us if we're fighting the best people in the world right that actually submit them because they're very hard matches like we have to focus on Winning, you know, like we have to do whatever we can to win But anyways What I like about the problem with these exclusive places They don't have the message of like making the sport more professional in terms of steroid testing UFC has not drug tested yet. I understand that I can can see that. But their plans in the future are the drug test.

And again, I'm watching them as well to see if they keep their word on what they've said. If they don't keep their word, you're 100% right. But we should give them the chance to keep their word. And if you agree that people shouldn't sign at the UFC, fine. Let them show that they're okay with some people, maybe it'll take a few months, and then if they show themselves that they're okay, then maybe that would be acceptable more.

Is that more fair what I'm saying to you?

Yeah.

Because they haven't tested yet.

Yeah, but I also worry about their new drug testing organization. I think it's not as professional as WADA, right? The previous USADA.

Well, I would say USADA was amazing. The reason why ... So, I want to make sure I don't get this wrong. I love when UFC was under USADA. The reason why is because you have to give them your whereabouts. If you're swimming, I was at the liquor store. They came to the liquor store and got my urine.

I was drinking.

You were at a liquor store?

Yeah, I was- Come on, one more, one more. When I was drinking, they came to the liquor store and they called me and they're like, hey, where you at? I'm at the liquor store. Don't move, we're coming. They came directly there. My wife was there and she was like, I'm going to the bathroom, been another testing agency like that around.

You know, you have the athletes, oh, you're fucking ruining my sleep, blah, blah, blah. Shut the fuck up. Because USADA, I was playing World of Warcraft, they came to my house, I was like, you have to sit here. I'm gonna finish this game, then you have my sample.

So I will always say USADA is the best testing agency out there, because they fucking come for you. Do you make eye contact when you give the urine sample?

Sometimes.

She's a nice lady. That's the gayest job ever. Like the guy gets really close to you and he's like nice and slow.

How much do you care about this? Would you personally take their urine samples?

Yes, sir.

You would?

Right now? Like if you, if you, if you, uh, I like it because the guy, I like it. Cause the guy gets close to you. I like when the guy gets really close to you and it's like nice and slow. I'm trying to, I'm trying to have your humor, but I think that I agree with you that I really like you saw it because I beat you, Jeff, we had you saw it. But the organization, I think that they're using now, I could be wrong. You could tell me if I'm wrong.

Drug free sport, right? Is something like that. But I think the NFL uses it. One championship uses it and UFC. Now do I know anything about it? No.

So you might be more of an expert on it than me. But I think that it is good for the sport that there's drug testing. It just professionalizes our sport more. I think that when you guys competed then, there wasn't drug testing and that's awesome.

That was-

Thank God.

No, but I'm saying is they didn't have drug testing. So for them, it wasn't illegal or anything. And you guys are legends for that path. I think now, if we could, for the next generation, start creating a platform where there's drug testing and things like that,

I think that will's okay. The past generation didn't have it I just want for the next one like the young kids They look at us and they're like shit that guy looks strong as hell. They don't have to get on steroids

Also, I mean I hope young kids aren't looking at me for inspiration anyway, but or me either

I think I'm weird. I think they are Craig and I saw now I'm gonna shift I'll have a question for Craig. Oh, you know, I did my own research to go around and ask people

when I when I do something wrong, I haven't. I'm still I did one thing wrong so far.

You lied to me.

That is fucking harsh.

That's harsh.

Just want to throw out the law.

You got to film it.

Yeah, I'll tell you. It's OK. Last drink. But I had a good intention. Was my intention good with that lie? That's what I say to the girls too.

I'm like, you know.

There you go.

This mean?

Not yet, not yet.

Come on.

One sip, not a full.

He's gonna hit me with a bad question, so we gotta get me through this.

It's a question direct towards him, and he's gonna be able to answer it. Not yet, ready yet. Craig, this is a question from, you know, I went around and I asked a lot of the OGs of the sport. And here's the question. Craig, do you feel like you're putting a bad spin on jujitsu?

Martial arts has a value, and you being over the top, sometimes with the antics and open policy about eliciting drug use, since many kids follow the sport, I know you're doing a good thing with outreach charity, but does it hurt the integrity of BJJ martial arts value system?

I think it does. I'm just trying to balance it back, you know, because I think the sport was very macho, homophobic, took themselves much too seriously. So I'm trying to be the counterweight to that. You know what I mean? We've got a lot of rednecks in this sport.

You know what I'm talking about. So we need to do a hard swing the other direction. But am I a role model for children? Probably not.

I haven't ran into a redneck in Jiu Jitsu yet. Really? I haven't, yeah. Am I blessed with that? King's way. Can you smile? How do you feel about that question, Dirk? Because I know that's one of the things you said about when it comes to the drugs in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that you're like, you don't want the younger generation thinking they have

to be on steroids in order to be the best in the world.

Yeah. So I think just professionalizing our sport long...

I'm trying to be polite.

I think just professionalizing our organization, Jiuiu-jitsu long term, just like every other sport there needs to be drug testing in the future. And UFC hasn't done it yet. I can see that, but I hope long-term they do. And if CGI did drug testing, I would be super supportive of that as well in the future. Right.

I think that if we could just slowly get the next generation to not be like this one, we could change our sport a little bit. Would you be willing to show up and surprise drug test every CJO athlete? Really? Oh I love that opportunity you know. That's the other part of Jiu-Jitsu like we talked about. The testing process or the test? Oh me enjoying doing the testing process for people right? Well for both. Yeah so I just want in the future just us to change that and you're doing one thing changing trying to work on athlete pay and just want in the future just us to change that and you're doing one thing changing trying to work on athlete pay

I think in the future long term is a process It's gonna take time to change things and Craig is working to change things and I just want us to change that as well in The future so that's just my thought on it again. I think that there was no drug testing back in the day I think that they weren't breaking the rules. You know, like you guys did whatever during that time. And I think that in the future, if we could just get the kids in the next generation not to do it, we could get our sport more professional in the future.

You guys, he included that in you.

You included him in the box set.

I had a dream the other day.

Okay, I had a dream.

But that's respectful, right? How I said that is fine. Again, there was no drug testing when you competed. There wasn't. That's why I try and balance it out. PEDs and things that don't need to be done.

Yeah, yeah.

I had a dream the other day, and I felt like maybe jujitsu, the athletes aren't meant to make money. I sat there and I was like, man.

Okay, Dana one.

Well, I'm just sitting here.

No, I don't want man, it's always about making the money. And once, this is how I felt, once the UFC got into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and they started doing their own platform, I felt like everybody lost their shit, from my standpoint, right? Even guys who are in mixed martial arts

are like, who are retired, they're like, nah, they're gonna monopolize Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And I'm like, Jiu-Jitsu's been around for fucking ever. Right, it's been around forever. ADCC, IBJJF, and the other ones. But now that UFC's in it, now everybody's like losing their fucking mind.

I'm like, oh, they're gonna lock down, they're gonna change the sport, they're gonna monopolize everything. I'm like, guys I'm right. You should do athlete relations for our organization

and tell them they don't have to make money.

Human resources.

I want them to make money, but I feel that it's so hard for them to make money. Right, it's almost like, damn. And like, you see all the time, you've seen a lot of guys lately, they're like, man, I win this tournament, I win this, and it says I'm a world champion, da da da da. And each time they go for a sponsor,

any time they look for a brand deal, the first thing that the company ask them for is, what's your Instagram follower? I don't know what the fuck if you won IBJJF four times, or you did X, Y, and Z. I wanna know, you got one million, you have two million. like Formula says, titles don't, legacy doesn't pay your bills. Winning and having the brand endorsement deals do.

So that's what I'm like, like, you know, like that's where I had that strong dream where I was like, man, maybe they're not supposed to make money. I don't know. I might be wrong.

I might be, I don't fucking know.

Convince me. Everyone's getting a pay cut, eh?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Mikey.

One more shot before this, Mikey.

A sip.

A sip.

A good cheers, a good cheers, a good cheers now.

Come on, boys.

Sorry. Cheers to us not making money.

Cheers.

God damn it.

I want you guys to make a shit load of money.

I just waste it anyway, eh?

Okay, so I think that, you make me laugh. I think that yeah, for sure, grappling is hard to make money, but I think that that's why we need good exposure and good publicity online to grow our pages, and that gives us the opportunity in other ways,

like instructionals, like in seminars, different things to grow our brands to make money. I don't think you could go in with the mindset, I'm just gonna compete and become a multi-millionaire like in basketball or football or something, right? So I think that the biggest thing I'm looking for with grappling is exposure of viewership.

CGI had good viewership the first event. And I think the free on YouTube creates that.

And hate this and the second one's gonna be bad now.

Second one's gonna be a fucking banger. I think it's an awesome card. But. I do.

It's an awesome card, don't worry about it.

Yeah, go on.

It ain't no ball, but.

Yeah, it's not a ball. But I think that that changes everything that we focus on growing our, most publicity that we can get, right? Most viewership we can get. And my page grew from like 500,000 to like a million in like a few months, just being with UFC.

I think that that was great. And I think that if they could do that for many people, we'll see. And if they can, then we'll get more exposure and we'll get more seminar opportunities, DVD sales, all these different things will come from that.

But I think that in our generation, making a million dollars in events will be very hard to sustain unless we party a lot with like rich people and just get funding like rounds of funding.

Money bag? He parties? What are you doing over there, man?

He's a party animal.

You're different though. Obviously, you're a special athlete as we know.

Special.

You're unique.

I mean, I can't help how God created me. I just do the best I can.

You're doing great.

You're doing great.

I'm trying, I don't know.

And like I said, I think the G's should make a shitload of money. I think if you win IBJJF at Worlds or PANS, any of those, it should at least be, I don't know, fucking 15 G's make it worth if you're the best one This is always my biggest right with the UFC when I fucking was you know Claim to be the power my best fighter in the world I was making like you know 350 then CM Punk comes on the motherfucking scene he makes 500,000

So it was based off of your your social media and all that stuff right so for me I feel like if I'm seeing these athletes compete in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Gi or no Gi They should be fucking well compensated right, but then people are like well, that's not what Jiu-Jitsu is about It's about testing yourself, and so that's why I have that conflict of that conflict in my dream I was like man, maybe I shouldn't make money So I don't want people out there thinking that you know you guys shouldn't make money. You guys all make fucking money. Yes. I have to be careful with my hand.

You're right. I'm going to get memed after this from Craig. He has it like perfectly in this angle and then there's going to be German writing.

You know, you would do that. Oh, you threw it up.

No, I'm canceled. But I gave you the idea. At least give me credit for the idea after you do it. You do, I'm like the UFC. But I think that in terms of making money, I think that if UFC delivers, and I think that how you get more money is more followers,

more everything that you said with CM Punk, right? And I think that the only way you get that is exposure and building athletes, and UFC could put the most money and the biggest reach for athletes. Craig, how much reach can you do compared to UFC? Like, I understand that we all have limits in the reach we could do,

like organizations like NFL, MLB, UFC, they have the biggest reach, right? So can't they grow people's pages potentially the most if they are able to deliver that?

They could, but there's a ton of guys that even fight for the title with no followers. So the UFC hasn't built their following even for UFC title fight.

MMA, you mean? Yeah. MMA. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like it's like just because you're a part of the UFC doesn't mean you're going to have big reach. If they put the effort in, I think it works. But I don't think just being attached to the UFC

grows your reach necessarily. Yeah, I think that 100% that you can't make that assumption. But I also think that UFC potentially can grow an athlete the most out of anything that we have right now in grappling. And if they could grow their page and everything that gives them higher chances of getting

paid more in our limited sport already.

Paid to exposure. That's the motto. That sounds familiar. No. That's your plug for the UFC.

Pay for exposure? No, no, but I'm saying, cause you were saying about CM Punk, that yields and again, America's capitalist, right? So.

He came in established though, right? CM Punk came in.

He came in established. And I, like I said, that was like my biggest gripe back in the time when I was fighting, where if you're truly the best athlete in the world in your division and somebody who comes on this scene, the first time ever fighting in the biggest organization in the world and they're making more money than an eight-time defending champion, that doesn't make sense

to me. That's a fucking click, right? Yeah. Champion that doesn't make sense to me. That's a fucking click right? Yeah But for some reason the UFC can make that happen and better than that So that's where my gripe was with that whole situation when it comes to if you're the best athlete in the world Competing you should be paid like you're the best athlete in the world competing. But now you're bowling out I'm on now baby. What service for carrying your boy?

Okay, but you have seen reverse reach right to make like crazy money like that and they help grow your brand I'm your boy, all right? I gotta apologize, I gotta get the fuck out of here, data. But UFC gave you the reach, right? To make like crazy money like that and they helped grow your brand. Would you say that they helped grow your brand at all?

When I left UFC, I felt like my brand went through the roof because now when you look back on the time I did fight in the UFC, like everything I did was, you know, I showed up five. Legendary. I guess you say legendary. And so I feel now I'm more popular now than I was when I was fighting. Like they always said, they're going to appreciate me when I'm gone than when I was there.

Right? And so I felt like, and here's the thing too, I've done so many campaigns. Like I remember USC 197 when I was fighting Hiroshi Udo. We did a sick fucking commercial and all that stuff. And then when Jones got in trouble doing whatever Jones does, they scrapped the whole fucking project. And I was like, what the fuck? I put three hours of shooting,

but since Jones is gonna be on it, you're just gonna scrap all that, right? They could have used it, they could have turned it, they could have done different things to be able to market me, but they don't do it. It's funny now, then you have the athlete. It's the promoter's job to promote the athlete's fights.

But nowadays, they throw it more on the athlete to promote the event instead of it's like

– Not a DJI.

I sacrifice all self-respect for these guys.

You're a better promoter than Dana White. I'm going to have to – Thank you. You're killing it.

Hairline's on the way.

You know, good for big shoes to fill. And that's where I feel like, I agree with Craig Jones, when you're attached to UFC, doesn't mean your brand's just gonna grow, right? I mean, you look at, I mean, you look at Murab Davalishvili, I mean, at the very beginning,

eight consecutive title, excuse me, eight consecutive wins, maybe 10, you know, Sugar Sean O'Malley, he's getting all the buzz, they're hyping him up. And then, you know, he's doing all these skits with the girls and all that stuff, and he finally wins. And then now he's built his brand so big. So I think being attached to the UFC, there are some perks,

but I think just because you compete with the UFC doesn't mean you're set and you're going to be good to go.

No, that's too strong of an assumption. Yeah. the opportunity on that platform, right? We can't, like everyone won't, like, it's not like, okay guys, you sign with the UFC, you're set, like you're gonna become famous. Absolutely not, I agree with you guys.

That's what they tell you on the pitch, though. True or false? That is part of the pitch.

I mean, I don't know for other people, just myself, and they delivered that they grew my brand and I know that they would grow your brand too because we are both very marketable I would say I think other people aren't as marketable as us that's why you and me are some of the biggest faces in jiu-jitsu in terms of I think that's accurate to say right I thought unfortunately yeah unfortunately yeah at least you get more love than me I get majority hate probably 80 hate 20 love 90 hate 20 10 love, you're like opposite.

I give you nothing but love.

On text messages you do. He texts very lovely when he's texting me. He's the nicest guy, like really loving and texting. But then when he gets a camera in front of him, I'm screwed. Like there's a new cap and he says, I'm sorry, Mikey. I still love you.

Well, you lied to me, you don't finish your shot. What do you expect? What? Well, you're going to need to finish this. You're going to have to take a sip of this. This one's directed towards you, Mikey.

Okay? Do I sip?

Do you want me to sip?

I think you might want to sip.

This one's going to be real. Finish it, finish it.

Come on, finish it. I missed those days. Not really. Okay. Mikey, now you're the face of UFC BJJ. Do you support picking easy fights to drive viewership? How do you feel about that? Do you, since you're the face of UFC BJJ, do you support picking easy fights to drive

viewership?

So my response to that is first of all, Craig, you were fighting Gable Stevenson, right? In CGI.

Steveson, yeah.

Did I say it wrong?

Did I say it wrong, really? Steveson or Stevenson?

Stevenson.

Stevenson, I believe.

Oh, I said it right!

Steveson, Steveson.

Steveson. Steveson or Stevenson?

Steveson. Steveson. Steve said oh, it's okay. I fucked up too. It's all good going. So fuck that guy Fucking turf toe so I think that If you were fighting someone that doesn't do jujitsu for the main event of CJI, which is one of the biggest tournaments in the world I think that the credibility on that is already showing like sometimes there will be matches like that in our goblin space I think that if we get long-term,

I'm saying again, not short-term. Short-term, maybe it'll be hard for me to get the best opponents, like Baby Shark, Diego Pato, these people that come to UFC. But I think long-term, if we look a few years, we'll be able to.

And I wanna compete a lot more years. to just retire now. So I'm investing in the long future of UFC being able to do that if they deliver everything that they've said. Again, if they don't deliver.

Yes, go ahead, Craig. But I would say from my perspective, yes, I'm doing that. Like obviously I took a big sacrifice taking the difficult match of Gabby Garcia, but that was the hook for the mainstream audience so that they had tricked them into watching real grappling. Gable Steveson was meant to be the hook until there was some alleged sabotage in the works by allegedly, potentially, someone else's organization to sabotage the event. So that was a hook, but still that would have been a difficult...

Honestly, people think that'd be easy. 265 pound man that could do backflips, obviously it's tough. Turf toe is tough too, though. Turf toe is no joke. But yeah, I'm using my platform as a hook to promote all the other athletes and help build their socials and help trick regular people into watching grappling.

I'm done, clearly.

You know what I mean?

Well, not after that half shot, but like tomorrow, maybe. Glass half full, glass half empty.

You know what I mean?

So it's like, I think different positions, different goals. Yeah.

And I was going to say more, piggyback on that, where yours is an event once a year and you aren't the main, I mean you are the main attraction but you are putting on the event. You're like, just, that's how I see it, right? You are the main event but you're also trying to build the sport to a point where it's,

you're giving back to charity, it's not about you, right? Like you're out here doing banners and getting tattoos where the other athletes are out there working hard Ready to go out there try to win the cash prize, right? So we're for on on your perspective of it It's like you are one of the best in the world and I think people want I think I'm gonna be able to give the best Yeah, yeah, I think people want to see me challenge. Don't let mighty about, dog? I think you are one of the best in the world. And I think people- You're giving me praise, Craig?

Really?

Honey, if you finish the show.

You already gave the praise.

He took a little bit of the extra credit.

It's sweaty in here.

I'm sorry.

We have to keep the AC up. I want to see you guys be intense. But I feel what people are getting at is that you're truly one of the best in the world, but by you going this route, you never get the opportunity to face, like, you know, the only way you're going to face someone is if they get an exclusive contract where they're not going to, it's just like the guy who was on Dana White's container series and he actually beat Alex Pahita.

And then when it offered him the contract, he there. I know that story. Well, yeah. Convenient. No. What's that?

I said convenient.

Yeah.

He was like, I'm not taking that shitty contract. I'm not being locked down. So we're never going to see that fight against Axby Hayter versus Abigail the Gentleman's name. But for you, it's the same problem as Routolo's, Takya, and Mika.

They're all exclusive in the three.

My argument would be that-

So then CGI is the middle ground for all three. That's your argument, right?

Well, that's what I'd love it to be. CGI to really go hard on the investment. Had they seen the potential at an earlier stage, then they would have been in a position to lock down all the best athletes in the world. I think that's the greatest error they've made here. And I think CGI is providing an out because we got athletes to sign contracts early because anyone, like say, for example, the Grappling Reality Show, they asked those athletes, they said, are you doing CGI?

Yes. Sorry, you're out of the show. So I think they're trying to start the ball too late based off the success they saw off my event. And that's my biggest personal gripe with them. And it hurts.

And I think, I'm going to hand it to you, and I think every athlete should have the choice to be able to compete at everywhere else, right? Because I remember me and you were talking about that when you're in one I was like dude You should be able to go compete if you can go over here Go compete at ADXE and Nagui and make 20 G's why not? If you go over here compete in this event do this you should be able to do it, right?

So I think you should be able to do especially when the event it's one time a year, right? Right, so I agree on Craig, especially if they're like, are you doing CGI? Yes, okay, you're fucking out and then that's like the same time. Maybe they can maybe they have that part they can do that

So I think that If it wasn't that the exclusive company was building somebody's brand like investing money into the person I agree a hundred percent But they're doing a long-term investment in someone spending Hundreds of thousands and marketing like if they actually do put that effort in, I'm not saying that they will guaranteed,

you guys said that to me before, but I'm saying that if they do do that, and then you go to another place, they built up somebody, and then they go to another place, and then you help other people build up that are also exclusive in another viable organization,

what did you just do? It's like they're donating publicity to somebody else. And I think that that's a big problem. I think it's a problem with exclusive contracts. I don't think it's just UFC. I think it's all of them, which is why I said IBJJF before was nice because all the best people would compete.

But there's just no money in IBJJF, right? And that's why I stopped doing Gi. I like Gi way more than no gi. I'm a gi person still forever. But I do think that that makes a problem. Like if you invest money in somebody, then you don't want to just donate them to help other people.

That's why UFC and MMA has that problem, right?

Yep. I mean, that's just the biggest thing when it comes to scusi, because they're trying to pass all the act and mixed martial arts. They won in mixed martial arts, but it's going back and forth.

And now with UFC TKO trying to get into boxing, they're trying to change the wording of Ali Act. So that's just the one thing that scares everybody. It's just the monopoly of UFC practices in different sports, essentially.

I was interrupted.

I stopped myself.

A burp's an interrupt.

Come on, man.

I didn't interrupt. I didn't even make a sound.

I think that's why-

I didn't hear any sounds.

I feel bad for you because you take heat because people think you're, they say, oh, Mikey's dodging tough opponents. I think just you can't get them because of the contracts you're stuck in. You want to face them and And that's why I think a middle ground like CGI,

that's charity based, live and free off YouTube, that's taking years off my life, not to mention this, is a perfect middle ground where it's like for a greater good. And if the UFC BJJ has the best athletes, then they will win this event.

Obviously they will take risks with injuries, but the athletes, like build your events around it. You know what I mean?

Like.

So here's a question. Why don't you think they will do that? Like your honest opinion, like why? I don't understand why they wouldn't do that.

You were pettiness, but I respect that to be honest. You know, but at the end of the day, that's what I think it is. Cause we were on good terms until I turned down the financial offer they offered me.

I agree with Craig that I've been trying hard to fight the best opponents, you know. 80 CC is a heavier weight class for me, being a lighter competitor, like doing multiple matches with people heavier and stronger is very hard. You agree with that as a competitor, right?

So I tried very hard to fight Baby Shark for like almost two years now. I think like six, seven times the match went through, I fell through. And then I fought Gabriel Souza, who got second place at ACC because of that. So I've been looking to have hard opponents. Definitely Craig is one of the best in the world. It would be hell for me to fight Craig.

The Routolos, all these people were very tough people for me. But yeah, the exclusivity makes problems, right? Tacketts, Rutolos, Mika, they all have this problem as well. And that is a problem right now in the short run. So I think in the short term of Jiu-Jitsu, right now, because of those three exclusive platforms,

there will be problems with us setting up these matches. I think in the long run, maybe hopefully by then, everyone's in one place like IBJJF. That's why I keep bringing up IBJJF. That's the only place where, and ADCC probably too, where everyone got together and has those hard matches. I'm not against having a hard match. I would love to compete with anyone in my weight class. I'm not the

best in the world outside of my weight class. I just do the best I can in my week class. But you're prohibited based on the contract, right?

Because I would say that the other two organizations allow their athletes to do a CGI type event in which they could potentially face the best in the world. So the only organization out there that isn't allowing their athletes to potentially face the best is UFC BJJ.

You love a saloon? No. Is UFC BJJ

You know

No, I really want to show you guys I'm trying

This is the best I've done so far ever in my life like not interrupting people

Proud of you, but no I agree that right now UFC was the only one because they're trying to do what they did in MMA and They went from 2001 being almost bankrupt with their organization to building the powerhouse that it is right now. I still have this drink, but I think that they have a business plan, a long-term plan, and I think that that's something cool that could happen in grappling. Is it the best thing? We'll see. I just think from my experience, I'm willing to invest in it and see how that turns out. Can I be wrong?

Of course. I hope for everyone that Craig's event succeeds and consistently succeeds because you keep growing grappling. And that makes our sport grow in general. I just want our sport to grow

so more and more people do it. And the exclusive thing, yes, I agree that some people from other organizations, UFC is the only one that won't let Whitflow and won championship, right? I talk with my hands a lot. It's a New York team. New Jersey, New York. But I think that UFC, that's just their policy in general. You know, they're following their policy from MMA, which made them successful. And I do think, like I said before, if they're putting so much money into marketing someone and building their brand because they have a

bigger reach I think that that's the perk and that is You have to sacrifice that in order to be what UFC that you can't fight out of their organization But if they could guarantee the things that we talked about awesome if they can't then that's a problem Then you're in a bad position like I agree with you 100% But I think that they deserve to have this trial run to see if they could grow other athletes. Right.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And if they can, amazing. If they can't, awesome. We made a mistake. And there's other organizations like CGI there that will be there that help other grapplers grow.

Hopefully. Do you think they've put the best people possible in charge of UFC BJJ? Do you think they're put people that genuinely care as much about the sport of jujitsu as you do?

I think-

That's a fucking good one.

That's a good question.

I think that you and me are jujitsu nerds. We definitely know the sport better than anyone cause we're both competitors deep inside the circuit. Me, Gi, and No Gi. I definitely had some input with everything they're doing. And again, every time I had input, I was like, guys, CGI was so successful. Like, Craig did an amazing job. Like, every interview I do, I praise this guy. I just want love from you publicly too.

But he didn't give me love now. That's the most love he's given me. Because everyone thinks that he hates me publicly.

That's why we're doing this.

So you show the world that you guys love each other. Off the record, we're like friends. I really think that we have a cool relationship. We can hang out and mess around.

We're good vibes, off the record.

He sleeps over once in a while.

Yeah. But I think that, I'm getting chunky. Wait, wait, what was I saying?

You were talking about the love hate relationship you guys had for each other.

No, no, no, no.

No, before that, before that.

Do you think the UFC?

Oh, the people, yeah, I remember now. Sorry, sorry, my ADHD. I do have ADHD, that's something I'll admit. I have really bad ADHD. That's why I interrupt and like, yeah, that's added in.

Like, yeah.

I think that, again, this is the beginning of UFC and they're learning. I think that in the deep platform of like the nerds, like Craig and me, they're definitely not the competitors like Craig and me in the platform. So they do have some learning to do.

There is a learning curve for them. But let them try. Why not let them try, right? And if they can't, so be it. I'll say you were right and that's it.

But do you believe they genuinely care about the sport of Jiu Jitsu or they genuinely care about the potential money-making opportunities and the monopoly of controlling all of martial arts?

So I think that the people that are working actually do care. I think that it's just taking them time to grow the knowledge like again, like you and me have from all the years in this field, right? I don't think anyone has more knowledge than us like being in the circuit, like being with all these crazy organizations, the pop-ups, all of that. I think that they definitely care because they're hired, like they definitely, I think

that these definitely care because they're hired. Like they definitely, I think that these people care. I think long-term they want to grow the sport. I think that if they're able to make a yield of a return from what they're doing, then they were successful. And I think that if they do that, that means everyone's making money, right? Because if they're making a return in grappling,

like you said, you could have potentially done this time. That means that you have a successful event, right? So I think that if they're able to pull that off, that means they're doing something right and grapplers are going to grow from that, they're going to make money and the sport will grow as well like your event.

Would they have offered someone that maybe put on a very successful event that grew the sport of which they learned a lot about Jiu-Jitsu from? Could they have made him a legitimate offer to be the promoter of the sport and been in a better position today than they are currently. I think that you do a great job

promoting. Oh, was I not supposed to say your name? Like that person? Should I just say that person? No, you're all good. I don't know if I'm legal. Like it's legal stuff. Like, is that why you're saying like hypothetical? Oh hypothetically. Okay that person That um could have been a great promoter as well I think that you know Jiu Jitsu very well and you know the industry, you know how to grow and sell things as well But I do believe that UFC has the experience all these years with MMA and their team. Is it new to grappling?

Yes, but I do think that they'll learn over time, just like they did with MMA, how to grow the sport. Again, this is just a test, right? We'll see if they can or not. I could be wrong, just in my personal view, I'm willing to test it and try that for me. And I could be wrong, that's why I keep saying-

For the right price, for that Moneyberg money.

No.

No. How much they paying you?

Who Moneyberg or UFC? UFC. How good is it compared to one?

I think that both organizations took care of me. Like I am grateful for one, how they paid me. I think both of them did well and they both grew my brand, right? So I have nothing bad to say in that respect that one did grow my brand so much, you know?

And it was just another option at the time. And I love Asia, so Asia is the best place in the world.

I know about you and Asian women for sure.

I'm not just kidding.

Okay, I have one more question to close it out. And I want you guys to get your last statement on this whole thing.

Because I feel-

Go ahead.

I'll finish, I'll finish. I don't know what I was wrong. Marty?

I'm good, sir. Thank you.

I'll take a sip of this.

I mean, I'm going to be careful what I say here legally, but the meetings I have had with UFC staff, they do not give one fuck about grappling whatsoever.

I think at the end of the day, I agree with you because it's almost like if they're not gonna make any money, I mean, look at my black ass. I wasn't making any money. They shipped my black ass out. I was like, you know, you ain't making money. Even though you're the best in the world, get your black ass out of here, right? So, I mean, at some point you could look at it that way. Right? Like you look at a guy like Muhammad Mukayyaf, Let's get him out of here. Where you have guys who aren't the best fighters in the world and they might be making the money. Right.

So who's on?

Oh, fuck.

There's someone under the bus, so we know.

So such as those.

Who do you think?

Who do you think should be kept in the UFC, Michael? But they're super exciting. Oh, there you go.

Right there. Fair enough.

Right there. Fair enough. Right there, right?

It's like Tai Toa Vasa. Like he, like-

Where's he fighting?

If you did a shui-

What?

If you did a shui in honor of Tai Toa Vasa.

A shui?

Yeah, fill your shui with a beer and drink it.

Oh, that's a shui, okay, having the best, like if you're solely focused on having the, it's like, that's why my biggest gripe is like, it's not a sport, it's more of a fucking entertainment, where if you truly having the best athletes, right? I don't care if they don't bring you a fucking dime. If he's the best athlete, you should have him on the roster

in order to fight, right? So that's where it's getting at. They're more focused. That's where Craig is like, I truly believe from the meetings I've had with him, they're only solely focused on making money.

I mean, they told me that. They told me I fucking hate grappling.

Yeah. Yeah. So they tell you that, right? has that conviction where it's like, dude, like I've been in there, I feel, I've heard him, I feel it, where they're just here for the money grab. If there's no money in it, then they might just, and that's where I think you're coming from, was like, if they do fail, they do it for two years,

like this was a waste of fucking time. And I don't care, I'll sell that I sold out. But not only did they not care about grappling, they offered me shitty money.

Craig, do you think I sold out because I wanted easier fights?

No.

Do you think that I genuinely want to compete and be good, right?

Yeah. I just feel like that maybe they they also felt that they through the UFC branding would be able to secure you better opponents. And now they've had roadblocks in doing that and now you're getting attacked online because people are thinking that you are choosing these opponents but you're choosing the best of a bad bunch.

I get stuck yeah.

Yeah so it's like unfortunately for you, you become the focal point not the organization and I do feel bad about that.

I think again that everyone deserves a chance. Like by their actions, we could see, I agree that you can't just assume, oh, this organization is doing it. They're going to make everyone stars. I think that's ridiculous to assume. I'm not that naive.

I'm a bit naive, but I'm not that naive.

One more shot, maybe.

But I think that let them try and let's see what they do. I think there's nothing wrong with a big player coming into the industry like this. And I think that, will they guarantee making stars? No, but if you wanna fight some of the best people, I consider myself one of the top people.

Someone like Craig and me, if somebody beats us, they definitely could grow their brand, right? So I think that me being there might make more people in my division go to that organization and I'll have more potential long-term, not short-term, short-term we're kind of screwed,

to have those higher level challenging matches. I do love the concept that Craig is doing, trying to bring them all to one at his organization. And I do respect that, but I do hope eventually we have that IBJJF concept where we're all together in one.

And I think UFC deserves a chance to prove if they can do it or not. Maybe they are for money, but if they are for money, then if we're all making money and growing our brands also, so be it. I don't care somebody's angle,

if they are making us all grow, if we're all gaining from that angle as well. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know my angle. I actually genuinely want to grow the sport. Craig agrees that I do want like actually good things to happen for the sport. That's why I supported CGI his first event. I really tried.

And I blackmailed him.

Blackmailed?

Yeah, we caught him coming over to the massage parlor. That helped a lot.

He massaged me.

Who, Dan Dana did? No, no, no, Craig. Yeah, we were actually there right before this. You know, I just left earlier. But no, I just think like, let's just give them a chance. Let's see what they do.

If they fail, awesome. I'll say to your face, okay, we messed up. I tried something cool, but if they do well, at least if you see them doing well and you see someone grow and stuff, then you could be like, Mikey, they are doing a good job. Good for them. Like, I think that's a fair thing. I think it's too early for us to even talk about that, but I do think guys that CGI2 is a great event and I hold the UFC BJJ belt at my event? You want me to bring it?

Yeah.

We can, if you want.

Did you design the belt?

Of course not.

So you don't like the belt?

Okay, so I love it.

Here we are, here we are.

First, first, I didn't like the belt. Like seeing a picture of it, I was like, oh, it looks weird. It grew on you. It grew on me. It's actually really cool, the red and black. Like when you, in person, it looks a lot cooler. But I grew, you agree, right? I saw it, it was pretty dope.

It was pretty dope.

That's what I said when I sent a picture as well.

The day after the match, I brought it. Sorry I talked over you. No, you're out. But it definitely, first I was like, oh, that looks not that cool. But then because-

I understand after two shots, it looks better.

No, but then in person, it actually is pretty cool. Like I actually like the belt now. At first I wasn't such a proponent of the belt. So it grew on me. So I agree with you, but it got cooler as you look at it. Maybe a few shots.

And the belt does look cool. Because me and the producer were like, ah, we're like, oh, what the hell is that?

The picture's not cool.

Yeah, and then when we actually got to hold it up.

I'll show you it in person.

Like after this, I'll show you it. And then like, you can see if it's cooler.

You brought it here?

No, no. Oh, okay. I'm gonna put you on the envelope. Yeah. So he goes, this is my fucking belt. Well, at least if you steal my belt, at least sign me after this. Imagine, imagine this, the plot twist. I signed with him right now. And then we just like bail.

You go to Australia with, yeah, you're from,

you live in Australia.

I'm homeless, kind of, you know.

That's unfortunate.

We'll take care of you. Gentlemen, closing statements. I'll give you an opportunity to do a closed statement. I'll give you an opportunity to do a closed statement. Then we'll wrap this up. I appreciate your guys' time. And I think a lot of people appreciate you giving your viewpoint of what you think is going on with UFC BJJ and how you feel this is the best path to get to where you want to, not in the short term, but in the long term, right?

And I think a lot of us, you know, obviously you know more behind the scenes than we do, because you've done business with them. Well, not really, you've been offered to do business with them, you're like, nah, mate,

I'm not gonna take that on the path, right?

Get fucked, mate. So, close the statement, go ahead, Craig Jonesy. I think we both have the same goal in mind, we just have less different faith in the organization structures as they exist today. And again, I just firmly believe I am not competition to UFC BJJ, but I am being treated as such. And there's a lot of things I can't say even out here, legally, that have happened leading up to CGI that I would say.

One or two?

Both.

Many things have happened leading up to the CGI that's like, we've definitely been treated as competition. I firmly don't believe we are a competition. We are a charity-based organization trying to grow the sport. But I also believe Mikey signed with the UFC

with good intentions, thinking they're gonna sign the best athletes, they're gonna compensate the athletes. So I do believe he's well-intentioned as well. And I believe he's just, when I attack him online, he's a representative of an organization I'm attacking,

more so than the person himself.

Thank you. Cause as a person, I'm cool, right?

Okay.

Too cool.

Or the Korean heart.

Your closest statement, Mikey, please.

No, I agree with Craig. Like we both are trying to grow jujitsu. I'm trying this one thing. I think that UFC trying to grow our sport, if they attempt to grow it, amazing. If they don't, I'll go to Craig.

Like, dude, you were right. You know, I think that it doesn't hurt for them to try. I think that we're both trying to grow the sport the same, and I'm just happy our sport's growing. Like, we are making progress, you know? Since 1996, there were a lot of random things, and there was just no money in Jiu-Jitsu right now

is to move the sport up a little more as much as we can, right? And I think that let's give UFC a chance. Let's see by their actions. I don't say, don't just go by their credibility or anything. Let's just see what they can do.

If they can do it, I'll completely acknowledge that, guys, you're right. If they can, amazing. Then we did something good. Right. And if they can't, there's other organizations like Craig that's growing the sport as well on the side, which is, it protects us. Right. And I think that's great. I'm a side piece. Side piece. No, but I think that we are doing a great job growing our sport and we both get a lot of hate online, Kai gets more love than me, but we both have the same intentions.

Show some more nudity, you know, like get it out.

Yeah, show your ass cheeks, dog.

I gotta go to the Philippines with you.

You're big in the Philippines.

I'm tall there. I'm more tall there, right?

Yes.

Compared to here.

But yeah, I think that, I think he was really productive today and we're both working hard to grow the sport and let's just give UFC the benefit of the doubt. Let them try and we'll see what they can do. That's all I ask you guys to do. And if they do well, you'll acknowledge they did well.

If they do bad, I'll acknowledge they did bad. There's nothing wrong with another competitor in the industry trying to grow the sport and

we can just see what they did. Do you feel that giving them the opportunity to try could actually hinder the sport even more? That's what I feel like from you. I'm like, I feel like we're allowing these guys to get an opportunity to try to grow our sport. And I feel like from you, you're like, they're just gonna fuck it up.

They're just gonna come in and be like, ah, it wasn't that good. We're good, we're, they can just tax right off. All right, let's move on to something else. Let's go back to slap fighting. Let's go back to this, right? That's why I feel from you, like, we're given this platform, the opportunity to build something

when you know, and you've heard from their mouth, they don't give a shit, and that's kind of really rubbing you the wrong way, when it's like, guys know, give me a role where I can actually make a huge difference. Like, let me fucking do it. I've been in this bitch for X amount of years. You just got to this motherfucker, right?

I successfully put on an event by my fucking self. Another event, I promoted every fucking thing. You guys haven't done anything, right?

Exactly, I'm committed. You're committed, You're in it. I got a BET tattoo for Gable Steveson and he betrayed me. You know what I mean?

Like I'm- What is it tattooed for? Sorry.

It's Black Entertainment. It's one of our greatest channels ever.

Wait, that's what the tattoo, what is the writing?

You don't like Tyler Perry?

I don't know anything about it.

It's okay.

This task more.

Another thing. Yeah. I mean, definitely like, I think CGI1 was one of the biggest moments in Jiu-Jitsu history. And I think messing with CGI2 by prohibiting some of the athletes is definitely like, we have a moment in time where we've just been robbed of mass exposure for those athletes in the event. Like imagine Mikey in a super fight at CGI2, like what that would do

for the growth of the sport would be huge.

Yeah, that sucks. in a super fight at CGI too, like what that would do for the growth of the sport would be huge.

That sucks, but it is what it is, business, you know?

Yeah. No, I agree.

That's where I feel the energy from you. It's like, you mother, like, that's how I feel, right? And that's where I feel like you have this, not I don't wanna say vendetta, but you like to use the word petty where it's like, you motherfuckers, like you guys just here just a money grab, where I actually love the sport of Jiu-Jitsu. I'm actually passionate about going on my, you know,

giving all my energy and soul to give Kade and those guys athletes opportunity to make a million dollars, where you see the other side, it's like, you guys are just here for a quick grab.

And that's what I feel with Mikey. Mikey is one of the best athletes in the world. I wanna see Mikey face the best athletes in the world right now. You know what I mean?

But it's, and that's, and I always laugh about it when it comes, like all the monopony is like, you look at fucking boxing. How long has it taken us to get Javante Davis versus Chris Stevenson, right?

Like you're never gonna fucking see that fight. You're never gonna see it. or how long it take to get Javon Davis taking on Ryan Garcia or fucking Deontay Wilder taking on, we haven't seen Deontay Wilder take on Anthony Joshua. It's like, it's double edged sword, right? It's like, you do exclusive, you don't do exclusive, but it's like yours is one time a year where you can potentially get the opportunity

to see the best athletes fight each other.

He needs to broker the peace deal. You know what I mean? Mikey needs to broker the peace deal. CJI, UFC, BJJ, all three organizations together.

If they were to do, cause I know you've been talking about-

CJI, UFC-

CJI, one, flip.

Oh, shit!

Wait, why are you giving me alcohol now?

Give me one too, I'll take one for the team.

I'm sitting here trying to finish my thought,

now I gotta fuck around and say. That's why he drinking too. Now if you can sit on that. Thank you. If I know you talked about like, you know, we talked about on the podcast, you said that, you know, CJI too might be the last one, right? Because you don't want to, you know, want to do, you might want to do throwing. If CJI too is going to be successful, I have no doubt. We get past this.

If the UFC and Craig Jones can come to terms and make love.

Who's the top there in those laughing cheeks?

Who would you like to be?

You want to be on top or bottom?

Depends who it is.

Is your catcher?

Dana Wynne, Dana Wynne, right? If you guys come to terms, you guys are on good terms, and they allow UFC athletes to compete at CGI3, would you do CGI3?

100%, I'd promote the fuck out of UFC BJJ if they just come to the table and be kind people. You know what I mean? Like, it's a charity organization. Must be nice to win a million. It sucks to give away a million.

You know what I mean?

No, I agree that giving away a million dollars is very hard. Like, props to Craig for even getting funding to give a million dollars to people. Like that's very difficult to do. You know, that's where, yeah.

Get out the knee pads and socks.

Jokes on everyone, that's Craig's new sponsor. He comes in right now. Guys, CGI. That's the plot twist that everyone's waiting for. But no, I think that I agree that it would be great if all of us could do like compete with each other.

I think that there's so many exclusive events now with who's number one, one championship and UFC. Yep. Who's number one and one championship both agreed to let their athletes do CGI. And that's great. That's going to grow the sport in their way, but again, UFC has their own business plan,

and let's just see what they can do. I understand that it's not the same as the other organizations doing it, but again, what do we have to lose trying their business plan and just seeing what they can do?

Again, in the short run, maybe the best people will be difficult difficult for them to sign the UFC. I concede that a hundred percent. You're right. But I do have a lot more years of competing and I do believe eventually UFC, if they stay in the industry again, we'll see actions will tell us. We can't just go by assumptions. I'm not naive like that. And I promise you I'm not trying to do that. Let's just see what they can do.

Can I corner you at your next UFC BJJ then? If you want to. I think I'm banned but if you can make it happen? If

you want to corner me sure. I'll ask you some cool Jiu-Jitsu questions

before you. Hey we got it on tape he'll come back for that receipt he'll be like hey you said I can corner you so you you know next time you're about to compete you're gonna have to go in there. Steven Tetchy, Claudia Gadelha, Let me in the building, ladies and gentlemen. If you corner me, you got to show me some cool things

before I ask you Jiu-Jitsu questions. I'm a Jiu-Jitsu nerd.

I've forgotten them all. You teach me, man.

No, no, okay.

That's the only.

All right, well, ladies and gentlemen, you have it. Before we let these gentlemen go, did you get a new opponent for Saturday? I'm sorry the turf toe hurt the man, but you know, obviously- There's a turf toe epidemic.

Yeah.

Do you have a new opponent for Saturday?

No new opponent.

No new opponent. Sorry to hear that.

Might have to be Claudia Gaudelian.

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe.

Organizations that are really trying to grow the sport and they want more people to do the sport, there's no one that does that better than CGI, because we're actually building schools for people to train Jiu-Jitsu for free. So the more people that are able to train Jiu-Jitsu from a starting age, that means there's more competitors, there's more families invested in their kids

watching the sport, and there's more people that see something free on YouTube, where they can look up to it and say, I can make big money. I could pursue this and I could fill a void in my life, whether it's not being a professional athlete or all the things you get from Jiu Jitsu, that's truly growing the sport. So a big marquee brand say, oh, I'm trying to grow the sport. They're growing it for their engine. We're trying to grow it for the community.

They did show up to our Guardian Academy in LA with a promise of a donation and then not

give up.

And I agree with you. Right. It makes it, I think, I think when it comes to organizations, they're afraid that let's say you have their best athlete go there and they get fucking kicked the shit out of some nobody like Chuck Liddell in pride and pride. And then it's almost like, okay, well, there's

no point going to watching him because he's got his ass kicked. So it kind of waters down. And it's the same thing with any organization. I know there's organizations like, we have the best athletes. Put my athlete against your best athlete. And if our athlete loses, at least we got their exposure of theirs, then vice versa. Mikey are you guys asking? Marky replaces Gable Steveson,

he'll hooks me on Sunday.

Yeah. Can I talk?

You can interject.

No, everything you said I love, and I really do want to grow our sport and help people change Jiu-Jitsu. Jiu-Jitsu has done so much for me in my life, you know, helping to grow the sport. I just want, I want to know that you guys could do this another 10 years. I want you guys to make it. I don't want kids to have the goal of doing CGI.

Call Moneyberg brother.

We add him in as funding.

He actually did fund CGI one and two.

I know. No, but I want, so does that make sense? I just want us to have a platform that's sustainable. And if you guys could have another 10 years of this where kids could be doing Jiu Jitsu right now and like, okay, in 10, like when I grow up,

I could do CGI and I could be a great athlete and I have that platform. It won't just disappear. And then they have to look for somewhere else, which it's so volatile Jiu Jitsu, amazing. Amazing. You get sent to Asia. You know what I mean? I've been supporting you guys the whole time. Every interview in UFC territory, I praise this guy.

So I think that CGI is great if they could sustain it long-term. I just have, again, everything's actions. UFC has to show with their actions that they could do what they're saying. CGI has to show with their actions

that they could sustain it.

If they could yield a profit, I'm so happy. That would be amazing. I think they can yield a profit, but they choose not to because they want to give back to charity and help grow the sport.

It's like people said they want to grow the sport. You talk about it, but be about it and put it back. So if the UFC or someone came back and said, you know what? We're not gonna work with Guardian. We'll make our own because we're a $20 billion industry and they go do it, we won.

Like, I don't care if they take it.

It's like, hey man, Jiu Jitsu wins.

And give Mighty Mouse his fucking Hall of Fame.

They'll do that when they're ready to, but you know.

He deserves all the fame for sure.

With all this backlash I'm doing, I appreciate that. I'll show it to them. It's fine to be a black man in jujitsu, just getting his bitch and getting all of that, woo!

Yeah, respect.

Yeah!

Yeah!

I saw that and I was like.

What did you think of the Laranja video?

I thought they were great.

Look at that, huh?

He's a woman, it's humorous, huh?

I love that. What kind of kids are you like? I grew up watching Renato Alondra. He's hilarious. Man, I showed my dad. My dad goes, why has he got a fucking robe? And I was like, dad, that is a fucking gi. Have some respect on it, man.

A denim gi.

Yeah, exactly.

Are you going to compete in a denim gi?

No, I got a black, nice shorty robe. Only shorty robe touches his body. I got offers. Come over to CGI then. I'm to compete? At that pay rate. You know man, like I said, I just I'm not good What about the kids, you know?

And Gabi Garcia? We need a new main event.

Nah. She don't have turf to. Would you face Gabi Garcia?

We were talking about that. Remember that fight pass? It would have been cool me and her in the E. Would have been romantic, honestly. But I think that again, I think that we all see we have good intentions.

Of course, yeah.

Like, I don't think anyone has bad intentions here. And, um...

Mighty, maybe. I don't know.

Oh yeah, he has bad intentions, of course. But he has a nice chair. You and me are sitting on this chair. Must be nice with that chair.

Hey, you guys turn the fucking chairs back where your backs are being supported. I want to hear that bullshit. You had our legs spread facing each other, man.

That's dangerous.

You guys grapple all fucking day. So when you guys lay down, I'm like, yeah.

I'm not very flexible.

That's a real athlete over there.

You are a real athlete.

Oh, what I wanted to say is, because I'm drunk now, so I forgot, you and Ren Brazilian now, right? You are. Yeah.

OK, gentlemen. Well, before I let you guys go, here is opportunity for you to say.

We already did that.

Well, he didn't.

He didn't say make sure you guys follow me on, you know, Instagram and also check out CJI too. So this your opportunity to. I'll endorse it too. I've been endorsing it you fight. It's his turn. Oh I didn't come on, but I interrupt you had it you kind of did it and I I was talking and you're like

If you finish it I'll do a UFC BJ plug right now But you're cornering me anyway company Company's on the line, brother. If you finish it.

You just want me to get wasted on here? Sip, one sip, is that a fair compromise?

If you do the whole thing, I'll go all out.

But a nice plug.

Oh.

I'll do a shot for you guys helping kids start jujitsu. I think that's amazing.

It's all a lie.

Fuck those kids.

Nah.

Mikey Musumichi will be competing on UFC BJJ when?

October 2nd.

Against a legitimate opponent. You guys should all watch it live and free on YouTube.

Yes, sir.

Which I respect, which they copied from me, but I respect it. But I'm excited to see that and I'm excited to see Mighty Mouse face Gabby Garcia this Sunday in a Turkish oil wrestling match. And he's agreed to do it absolutely free.

You want to promote CGI too?

Yeah, I'll promote it for you if you want.

Yeah, you go for it.

Because he promoted me, now I'll do it.

And also, shout out to Turf Toe.

Oh, Turf Toe?

It's a serious injury.

And the tattoo you have.

BET. BET.

Yeah, okay. Black Entertainment. Black Entertainment. Shout out Black Entertainment Channel. Shout out Black Entertainment Channel. And guys, please tune in. It's 29th and 30th?

30th, 31st. 30th, 31st. Okay. Guys, please tune in to CGI2. August. August, right? We're in August. I'm drunk right now, guys. August 30th and 31st, CGI2. It should be an amazing event and please support Jiu Jitsu's growth.

What do you mean should?

What?

Oh, it will.

Okay, you want that direct? There's really cool fights. As a Jiu Jitsu nerd, I'm really excited to watch those matches and please tune in and support our growth of our sport. I'll definitely be watching.

Mikey will be there front row with the UFC belt with the UFC belt until I steal it.

Well, there you go, ladies. Gentlemen, we just had a great debate between Craig Jones and Mikey. I believe these gentlemen are all in the pursuit of trying to make Jiu Jitsu the best it can be. So please give a like and a follow to the channel. Subscribe as well and go follow Craig Jones on Instagram and also Mikey missy Michie makes you check out

CJ I to free a live on YouTube and you can also follow Mikey when he fights No, excuse me. He will also be competing at UFC BJ. Who's the opponent? Who is it whisper I can't say that he can't say contract

This part. I'm already getting sued. Oh can't say. Contract. We don't want to get sued. We got this far.

I'm already getting sued.

Fuck it.

You want me in the lawsuit with you?

Make sure you check out UFC BJJ.

You better give me matches if I get sued now.

You got Zucks, Lewis, brother.

Come on.

It's okay.

UFC BJJ. That is it for this episode of The Mighty Cast. Please leave a comment down below if you agree with, who do you agree with more? Do you agree with Craig Jones or do you agree with Mikey Misimichi? We'll see you guys in the next episode of The Mighty Cast.

Good job, gentlemen.

Good job, good job.

Good job.

What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of The Mighty Cast. And we just had a mighty debate two of the greatest grapplers to ever grace this earth, Craig Jones and Mikey Misimichi. And I'm gonna recap everything I took away from that discussion, the debate. With Craig Jones, like I said before,

I feel like he's been, he feels that the UFC should've gave him an opportunity to run with building UFC BJJ, just because he's been in this sport for a very, very long time. He's proven that he can do it. He's done it on his own.

Obviously, he had amazing help from his team. Whereas, Craig has stated that he's had conversations with the UFC BJJ where they're solely in it to make money. And I feel with Mikey, I said it before on the Mighty Cast, where I feel like Mikey is a man finding the best place to help build Jiu-Jitsu and he believes that UFC BJJ

is going to do that. Now, obviously they both have mutual respect, they have a lot of respect for each other, I don't wanna say mutual, they truly look at one another as one of the greatest athlete in their own division.

And I think what Craig Jones is doing, how he feels that the UFC views him as competition, when in reality he's really not. He only competes, he only has an event once a year, right? Where he allows everybody to come to the event and compete. Everybody's gonna get paid with inflation, it's $10,00 and two dollars and the team format that team's gonna win a million dollars

We're UFC BJJ. They have events maybe six or ten times a year. They have division they have belts You look at one championship you look at who's number one you look at flow grappling They're allowing their athletes to be able to compete at CJI But since Craig Jones didn't do the UFC BJJ and coach against Mikey Misumichi, they're kinda shutting all the doors

and kinda excommunicating the athletes to compete in his event. Now, on Mikey on the flip side, Mikey wants to give UFC an opportunity to prove that they're able to build UFC BJJ and give athletes the opportunity to make more money.J, and give athletes

the opportunity to make more money. Now, the biggest thing with UFC is that they have exclusive contracts where when you get inside of that network or you're in that banner, you cannot go compete anywhere else

where there are some other organizations that have exclusive contracts that won't allow them to compete anywhere else, but they'll allow them to compete at CJI now I think the exclusive is a very it's a hard problem to solve because Mikey it does make sense

Why would a company want to spend all this money to invest to build this product and then that products able to go compete anywhere? Else the best way to think about it is you look at how the streaming services are now with Hulu Disney Plus You know Amazon HBO max, you know a it is you look at how the streaming services are now with Hulu, Disney+, you know, Amazon, HBO Max, you know? A good example, you look at Hulu, they have Alien Earth. If you wanna watch Alien Earth, you have to have Hulu. If you don't have Hulu,

you're not gonna watch Alien Earth. So it's the same thing when it comes to the athletes. If you wanna see Mikey Mishimichi compete you have to watch UFC BJJ If you want to see this athlete compete you have to go watch him on that platform So that's what the exclusive does and it you know something I think it does Handle the sport because you're not gonna see the best compete against the best But when you see the best compete against the best does it grow the sport or does it make the sport look boring because they're so

Both evenly match that's something for you guys to leave a comment down in the section below. So it was really fun to do this debate. I have both those guys on the Mighty Cast on their own and to have them here together and hear both sides and have them go back and forth. I don't feel like they went back and forth but I felt like they kind of got their differences on the table and I want you guys to get active in the comment section, let me know what you guys think.

Do you side with the savior of Craig Jonesy? Or do you believe the path that Mikey Mitsumishi is taking is gonna be better for the sport of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? Let me know in the comment section down below. As always, I am your host Demise Johnson, the man behind the scenes, Michael Manzo and Nick Pappas, they're behind here right now, getting everything looking nice and sexy for you guys.

Shout out to our guests, Craig Jones and Mikey Misimichi. As always, we will see you guys in the next episode of the Mighty Cast. Oh, don't forget to like, subscribe, also hit the bell to know when we drop another one. also hit the bell to know when we drop another one.

Peace. Thanks for watching!