Is Everything Really As Bad As It Seems? | Molly Jong-Fast

One of my goals is to bring you access to the top experts and thinkers in the country to help make sense about what is going on in politics today. And today's guest, Molly Jong Fast, well, she's a good friend, but she's also one of the sharpest political thinkers around. As an opinion writer for the New York Times, a political analyst for MSNOW, and a media veteran who knows our political landscape inside and out.

She joins us today to break down the real history behind Jeffrey Epstein, how Republicans and billionaires are destroying legacy media, and she gives us a sneak peek into the 2028 presidential primary field. But before we get into it, please leave a comment below and tell me, who do you want to hear from next? Molly Jongfast, welcome back to Defending Democracy.

Thank you for having me.

What people don't know is Molly and I regularly communicate off air. We're friends and we often, it usually begins with one of us saying, this is really bad.

Or, is this as bad as I think, or is this worse?

Right. Yeah.

So in that vein, I want to start with something that I think is bad, but, you know, like has it's, is causing Donald Trump trouble, and that is the Epstein files. And I want to start with that with you for a couple of reasons. First of all, because I know you have followed it. Number two, you'll have witty and insightful analysis of it, but also what people who probably all know you know about you.

You kind of grew up in like New York City royalty. So you probably better than almost anyone like understand what the fuck is going on with all these people. So what do you make of the latest in the Epstein email releases? Donald Trump's now desire to have the Epstein files released, the House is about face, the House is about face, the House Republicans about face, that they now all want to release the Epstein files.

Like, what do you make of all this?

I think you're talking about the cast of characters that we find in these emails are very much the New York of the 1980s, 90s, 2000, 2010s. I mean, these emails go up. What's shocking is they go up to his death. So there are emails here about like, and again, a lot of them are, you know, this was like a mega dump of emails that the Republicans did. And they, I

think we both can agree they did this because they saw they couldn't get ahead of it, so they decided to drown. You know, there's a word for this, right, in legalese, where you try to drown the other party in documents?

Yeah, you try to bury them.

Yeah. Yeah, whatever.

There should be some great word for that.

There should be, like, a Latin phrase, yeah. Right, because... Or maybe I may have missed that day of law school.

Yeah, so clearly, they were trying to get it. So in this dump there are a lot of emails that we don't really you know they they may you know so that maybe he spent Thanksgiving with Epstein in Palm Beach. We don't know. While while president of the United States. While president of the United States which is shocking. But so but in these emails are these people who were very much of the characters of New York society and, of course, they're friends with Trump because Trump was very much one of those

people too. And they are. And, you know, it's funny because I was reading the Times had a piece with a bad headline, but I think was a very interesting piece about all the people in there and the world that no longer exists that they lived in of media moguls. And then the ethical questions of Michael Wolff,

maybe covering, you know, this sort of blurred line between comms, crisis comms, and covering someone, which is, by the way, those lines should never be blurred. So there were some real ethical lapses there for sure. But I actually read there's a very smart New York Times reporter named James. He's very old school.

I can't remember his last name now. But he's very old school and smart. And he talked about how he had gone to interview Epstein about the Elon Musk Tesla stuff, and how he had been in the townhouse, and he had just seen what a sort of serial fabulist Epstein was. And yet also, these men were also involved in this,

and also probably guilty. So we'll see more of that. But yeah, it's a world that doesn't exist anymore. It's businesses that no longer throw out magazines that aren't real anymore, people who all, the Woody Allen dinners and the,

it is a pretty good advertisement for not being in the cool kids crowd.

Can I ask you two geography questions that people from New York may not understand? Number one, where was the townhouse and what does that tell you about the townhouse? Because when people think of New York, they think mostly of skyscrapers, like powerful men and skyscrapers.

Yes. In fact, I actually want to look up this article that I just read because, okay, so the article is written by a guy called James B. Stewart, who is like a longtime New York Times business and very venerable and smart and old school. So it was on 71st Street across from the Frick. It was now Epstein, again, so much with Epstein, you have to say like Epstein said this,

but it's not necessarily true. He said it was the largest house. You know, it's like one of those big limestone buildings that could be used for an embassy. And Stewart actually talks about how the woman who answered the door looked like she was 18 or younger.

Was this like a part of New York society lives? Or is this like off the beaten path?

No. So it's the Upper East Side, but the very fancy part of it, most fancy, the fanciest part of the Upper East Side, in a big limestone that, you know, billionaires have these kind of, you know, they would sell for maybe somewhere upward of $20 million.

And they're humongous, and they look at it on the museum, and it's very quiet, but it's also very tony, and they're, and, you know, and Woody Allen lived down the street. And all of his life, when you see in the emails, he goes to Palm Beach, he goes to the Ham— well, I don't know if he goes to the Hamptons, but he goes to Palm Beach, he goes— you know, he has a private plane,

he flies a lot of politicians on his private plane. What I think is interesting is the idea of a person who says to you— because this is a New York thing I've seen before, he says to you, I am a genius money manager, and that is why I have so much money. And in fact, when Stewart comes in, he says, I'm doing currency trading. And that is something I've seen where, you know, and the truth is, I mean, you know, he probably was running a blackmail scheme

because his, the answer for why these people paid him so much money doesn't make any sense, right? He says that some of these billionaires, and again, we know Leon Black, we know Les Wexler, those are like the names we know, both of whom are totally, have not had any kind of accountability, but those guys paid him

millions of dollars.

And those are big New York finance names, right?

Right. Well, Leon Black started Apollo and Les Wexler started the Limited and now lives in Ohio or something. But both of them say they paid him for like for state management, right? Like there's no world you pay what

you pay a hundred million dollars to an estate. You know, like you just get a lawyer, you pay him eight hundred dollars an hour. It's not cheap, but it's not a hundred million. I mean, that's an estate right there.

My other big geography question that I want to talk about the new, the more current news is the connection between New York City and Palm Beach is what? Because like, I realize Donald Trump has a place in one place, one in the other, but it seems like there's, like, a lot of going on between those two locations.

Palm Beach, and I say this as someone who spent very little time in Palm Beach for any number of reasons, but there are a couple of things that happen with Palm Beach. People, when they get older, they live there, and then people live there because the tax structure

is much better than New York. You have older people, and I know a lot of people's parents now just, you know, so they do I think it's, I don't know, 286 days, 300 days. You have to do a certain number of days in Florida in order to have those taxes. They are very, if you, you know, if you're spending 250 days in New York and pretending you're spending, you've, you're fucked, right? Like you cannot do that. In fact, they know because they can see your plane, they can see your E-ZPass. So, you know,

there are the, there are a lot of rich people just live in Florida, you know, do Florida and the Hamptons, so they don't have to pay the taxes. Got it. OK. It's the heartwarming story. I was going to say, so that's the relationship between the two. Because the thing is, if you're a rich person in New York, you pay like a 54% tax rate.

And if you're a rich person in Florida, you pay a 34% tax rate. Because New York has a 10% New York City tax.

And I assume that's going up now.

I would hope. I would hope. I would hope. That's what we signed up for.

What do you make of the New York City elections and the New Jersey elections and the Virginia elections and everything you've seen? Obviously, I assume you vote in New York City, so you probably pay the most attention to that. But the New Jersey elections were just the same media market, like just across the bridge.

Yeah. I mean, I was actually, I went to New Jersey to cover the New Jersey election and talk to Mikey and went in her car and talked to all our staffers. So I think I know probably more about that election than the mayoral, believe it or not. I mean, the mayoral, I thought, was the I think the lesson from the mayoral was is that Mom Donnie is a very charismatic politician. And if you run charismatic people, you can win. And if you run them against people who have no interest in the job and just have a fancy name, you can win plus, plus, plus. So I think there's a real case against like, don't run people just because you

think they're famous. But New Jersey and New York, again, I, it's a very, being mayor, no one has ever survived that job. It's a, it is a cursed position. So, you know, I, good luck to him, but it's not, it's not a job anyone, I think it's the worst, I think he'd be much better off if he had gotten a different position because that position is just, it's such a nightmare.

Explain why that is such a hard political office to hold and succeed at.

Because it's such a big city and it's a big city filled with a lot of different kinds of people, all of whom like to complain, and all of whom have very different needs, right? So you have people who live in Staten Island who are living in a completely different world than people who are living in the Bronx.

You know, Staten Island is Republican. It's a lot, you know, it's actually now it's more of a mix, but, you know, it was originally a lot of Italians. Now you have a lot of Caribbeans. You have just a completely, like, you know, varying degrees of businesses. And it's just very tough.

We have a police department that's a billion, you know, that's several billion. I think it's three, four, five billion. I mean, you know, that several billion, I think it's three, four, five billion, I mean, billions of dollars. It's the biggest city in America, and it is spread out and diverse and just impossible to govern. You also have these union contracts you have to renegotiate.

I mean, it's just... And you have the effects of climate change. So you have, we're an island where the water is rising, and we have these, I mean, the thing we've been really dealing with are these, these micro flooding, you know, where it just starts pouring. And then that has been, you know, we just have a number of different problems

that are very annoying. I mean, so we'll see. I mean, it has never been, there has never been a mayor who has survived the job. You don't think Ed Koch did? I mean, yes, but it was like 10 million years ago. I mean, when we were kids, I mean, yes, when Ed Koch, Ed Koch did okay.

I mean, he was a complete weirdo in any number of other ways. But yes. But you said you followed New

Jersey. So what did you, what is your takeaway from that? Maybe a little less, also, by the way, not an easy job being governor of New Jersey.

Oh, yes, for sure. And in fact, the first time since in like 29 years that the party has stayed Democrat, because usually New Jersey people are so mad, they're like, kick them out. I think that what more than,

because Virginia and you know about the Virginia and Spanberger, but like Virginia was, you could see how the government shut down and Doge had radicalized, and I mean radicalized in quotes

because not really radicalized, they're Virginians and it's government employees, but where they had, those people had really seen the worst of Trumpism because Trump, you know, remember, this is an administration that had wanted to put the Fed, this is to quote Russ Vaught,

put federal employees in trauma, right? So that's a state where it's a fait accompli. You knew Spanberger was going to win.

Yeah, and Winsome Sears was also a particularly terrible candidate.

Oh, oh my God. Can we just have a minute on Winsome Sears? I mean, who even found that person?

So she was, remember, she runs as lieutenant governor, which in Virginia, and this is no disrespect to the lieutenant governor elect and all the past lieutenant governors, does not have the most robust portfolio as in the Virginia government. Does that, you know, has relatively limited responsibilities.

And she runs as the Lieutenant Governor, and they run separately, but, you know, effectively with Glenn Youngkin. And Glenn Youngkin wins in a surprise, somewhat surprise, post-COVID, kind of like, please reopen the schools, please let's everyone, let's, you know, and in a model that is really the only way Republicans win in Virginia, which is like this very moderate pro-business,

you know, sort of mindset. And he doesn't wind up governing that way. But she winds up running as the lieutenant governor as kind of the movement conservative, kind of the resident wackadoodle on the ticket to balance out Yunkin, who himself turned out

to be much more of a wackadoodle.

Yeah. My favorite part of the Yunkin story is he wins by twoin story is he wins by two points and he's considered to be presidential material. So Spanberger won by like what?

Twelve?

Oh, I think more than that. I think it was more. Yeah.

Right. So does she get to be president next? I mean, does she, you know, like,

are we going to, can we have a talk about that? I'll be right back with more of my conversation with Molly Jungfast in a moment. But you know, I founded Democracy Docket in 2020 to shine a spotlight on Republican efforts to undermine free and fair elections. And today, the Democracy Docket team is working harder than ever before. They track the anti-democratic groups working to undermine free and fair elections, Republican voter suppression tactics, and much, much more. But in order to keep up this important fight, the team needs to grow and it needs your help. Support their work by

becoming a premium member now at the link in the description below. I'm glad you raised that because you know, having worked for a number of a lot of female candidates, including Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris at the presidential level, it's a it's a real good question. I mean, like, you know, I mean, and this is not a knock by the way on Mondani and what he did in New York City, but like, honestly,

the amount of fawning national attention on him relative to these two women, both of whom just won absolute landslides. I mean, and by the way, with big coalitions, I mean, coalitions that span from the furthest left of the Democratic Party all the way

into the center of the Republican Party. Like, I think there is a legitimate question why in American politics we don't look at those women and say, you know, why aren't they immediately in that tier?

Yeah, no, I agree. And Mikey's a great example of that. So that race was interesting to me because I went there because it was a feeling that it was tightening, that the polls were getting closer and closer and closer. That turned out to be just a complete bullshit media

narrative. By the way, I went to Moncler. I heard her speak at the No King's Rally. I, you know, I, again, this is like another moment of, like, me, I sat there and I thought, well, this is pretty good. I mean, they were as excited for her, all this, you know,

Moncler is her home turf, right? But everyone there, everyone else, I was like, you know, they were pretty bored. And Andy Kim, who I love, who's this wonderful senator from New Jersey, anti-corruption, ran against, you know, jumped in the primary to run against Menendez, very honest guy, had a kid who had a heart problem, which is why he was involved in Obamacare. I mean, you cannot do better than Andy Kim.

But he's very sleepy. You know, he's not a — you know, he's a senator. He's not going to be president. I love him. Sorry, Andy. But, you know, she got out there, and she was like a rock star, and people are screaming her name and chasing her to her car. And I'm thinking to myself, this woman is somehow unable to deliver and

that's why the polls are tightening. I was pretty sure she would do well. And we did

see that.

So, look, I think that there is a type of candidate that the that the media falls in love with. And I think that Jack Cittarelli, as crazy as he is, and I kept saying he's a fringe right-wing candidate. And people who are in politics and in the media were like, no, he's actually connects with voters. I think that he actually plays a type that,

unlike Winston Sears, by the way, who I think that a lot of people in the sort of center left media establishment, they kind of like look for him. And so I think they overestimated his appeal.

For sure. I mean, I also think, and this was the thing I kept saying to people when they were like, and he's really connecting with black voters, is I was like, my man has been running, he has run for governor three times.

Like, it's like these people get married and then get divorced and then get remarried. Like, that's never gonna work, okay? Like, if you are mad enough at the person to divorce them, then you are not gonna, like, it's just never gonna work, okay? And that's what this is like.

You know, you've run for governor three times, and every time, America's, you know,

New Jerseyans have been like, no thanks. So you mentioned that you're taking Andy Kim off the presidential list. There's another senator from New Jersey who I think, like some people have on that list, Cory Booker, really dynamic speaker, can be really compelling. Obviously,

we've seen several governors around the country, Gavin Newsom, JB Pritzker, Gretchen Whitmer, although Gretchen Whitmer seems to say that she doesn't want to be president, which may make her pretty qualified for the job.

Josh Shapiro.

Josh Shapiro looks like he's potentially Wes Moore in, in Maryland. And then of course there are other senators, Molly. You know, we have a history of senators running for president in this country. John Kerry ran Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama were both senators. And then in 2020, we had a lot of senators run, including former vice president of the United States who became president, but remember,

Elizabeth Warren ran, Amy Klobuchar ran, right? So what do you, I know it's really early, and I'm not gonna ask you to pick who's gonna win, but like, what do you make of the field?

So, I mean, the good news is we've now seen what happens when you don't have a primary process, and it's not good. Certainly what I feel from being informed over the last decade of just watching Donald Trump somehow manage to get elected, not once but twice, is that you have to have a really fulsome primary field

and you have to let primary voters just hash it out with these people. Like, you can't, you know, so does that, I mean, there are people in that list that I think are very talented. I would put Wes Moore on that list.

I would put Gavin Newsom on that list. I would put Josh Shapiro on that list. I would put, Corey is very talented, too. But there are, and there are senators that are very talented, but Newsom is termed out at 26. So he will no longer be in office in 26.

So that, I think, will be a problem. That is a problem for him. I think being able to add those five seats was a game changer. And the fact that he could do a special election in two months, raise all the money for paper

and paper.

Over $100 million, yeah.

Right. And then just-

And he won in a landslide.

In a landslide. I mean, if you want confidence, like, you know, I live in New York and my governor's like, well, we have to look at the thing and maybe, you know, like we have to talk to the like fucking, you know, I think it's worth seeing that kind of effectiveness is pretty good. And that's a real question. So so so the answer is, I don't know. But I certainly see some things that I like in just effectiveness. Politically, the thing that the worst thing Democrats can do, I think, and again, it's real early days, is make this about ideology

and not make this about effectiveness. Like, it doesn't matter, you know, I mean, I think it matters that they have, like, broad strokes of what, like, I don't think they should throw trans people under the bus.

I don't think that's worth it. I think, like, that, or or gay people or, you know, like I don't think embracing racism or sexism or xenophobia is okay. But I do think that the primary should focus on effectiveness and not on ideological purity.

What about, you know, something you haven't mentioned that used to be one of the defining features was geography. And you have both the House and Senate leader of the Democratic Party from New York, right? Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer. You mentioned, you know, Cory Booker's

from neighboring New Jersey. You have Gavin Newsom, obviously, from California. Do you think that it matters that it is, that it would be so coastal? Is that an argument in favor of like a Pete Buttigieg who's from Indiana and now lives in Michigan or J.B. Pritzker's in Illinois or maybe Josh Shapiro, I guess, because it's not exactly

it's a more of a swing state. It's not a coastal state. Like, is that an argument? Or do you just think like all politics is national now, and this whole obsession about what state people add, remember the primary, like everybody tried to add states, that that's just not true anymore.

I don't know, because when you look at the Harris underperformance, and again, I'm going to say something that women say to each other, but not publicly, which is, did they not vote for her because she's a woman? We all say that to each other, but not publicly, which is, did they not vote for her because she's a woman? We all say that to each other.

We don't say it publicly because then men yell at us, right? I've said it publicly before, and people have been like, that's so stupid. There is no misogyny. What a dumb bitch. And I'm like, yes, you're right.

There's no misogyny.

Tell me how there's no misogyny. Look, I've said this. I think Hillary Clinton would be president of the United States, but for the fact that people wouldn't vote for a woman.

And James Comey.

Yeah. But I think that she was the victim of it. Absolutely. All the people who say, you know, they didn't find her likable, you know, I mean, one of the, I will just tell you, having met all everyone we've discussed, I've met, I've met every one of the candidates. I've met, I've met John Kerry, I knew, or met, I knew John Kerry, I know John Kerry well, I knew him at the time. I knew Barack Obama very well from before he was a senator. Hillary Clinton, one of the warmest people you'd ever meet. You know, one of the most down-to-earth, just normal people you'd ever meet. Yeah. One of the smartest, just, you know, straightforward.

She's a Midwesterner. Yeah. And, you know, but anyway, I could go on and on about it. But yeah, I think that that's an issue. And Michelle Obama said recently, I think, something about this.

Yeah. So the question is, so when we look at geography, like, would, you know, did she lose Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania has never had a woman on the top of the ticket?

Right.

Right. They never have. Or did she lose Pennsylvania? I mean, so that I don't know. The one thing I will say about Pennsylvania, which I think definitely is a sort of in the Shapiro camp, is that he is still very popular in Pennsylvania.

Yes. Yes.

And, like, very. And so that is something, like, when you think of, like, I really like Gretchen in Michigan, but she's not as popular as he is in Pennsylvania.

I also think she said she doesn't want to run.

I don't know what exactly has happened. Michigan is such a complicated state. And I don't, and you know, now there's this weird, there's a weird three-way race for the governor, no, for the governor. Governor, right, yes, there's a very, that's right, there's a very three-way race for the governor. No, for the governor.

Governor, right, yes. That's right.

There's a very odd governor race setup.

But then it's a guy who's maybe not... He's maybe an independent, but he's maybe a Republican. I interviewed him, but then I got some information that maybe he's not. He said he's just an independent, but maybe he's a secret Trumper.

I don't know. Speaking of your interviewing people, so you have a very popular podcast, now a very popular YouTube channel, and I hope everyone checks those out. You are also a contributor at MSN, I'm sorry, MS.

MS Now.

MS Now.

MS Now.

MS Now. Oh, it's not MSNOW, MSNOW. MSNOW. MSNOW. MSNOW.

MSNOW. Oh, it's not MSNOW.

MSNOW. Yes. My source for news opinion world.

Got it.

Swear to God. Swear to God.

You got that down. And you also have a sub stack. You are literally covering the entire media landscape. And in all seriousness, I hope everyone subscribes to her YouTube channel and her sub stack and her podcast is really excellent. And you were for a fairly long period of time, you're gonna tell me it wasn't that long,

you wrote for Vanity Fair, which is-

Three years, three years.

Which is like a-

For what media world is forever.

Right, which is also a famed brand like in media, as is obviously the New York Times, which is like the most famous brand in media. So you kind of like run the gamut. You've got like the most prestigious establishment media print. You've got Substack, which is the most entrepreneurial and the place where right now a lot of the energy.

You've got traditional linear television in MS Now and also YouTube. And then in the middle of all that, you've got a podcast. So what do you make of the media landscape right now from all of those perches?

So this is the thing you and I talk, we actually talk about this the most in our, well, we, I feel like we have two tranches of conversation. One is, are they coming for the Jews? Yes. Which we have to talk about more because we need to talk about Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes and how the new Republican Party may, has a moment where it could really embrace anti-Semitism in a way that it hasn't in since.

You think they haven't yet? where it could really embrace anti-Semitism in a way that it hasn't in since World War II. You think they haven't yet?

No, they haven't. I mean, they have. Yes, they have.

This is usually how it goes. I am definitely in the, they are coming for the Jews, and Mollie is in the, no, they're coming for Democrats.

Right. Or some, but yes. Right. No, it's true. There is... Yes. Okay. So back to the media landscape question, because I'll just do that for a second. I don't understand. I think there needs... I think that there will be a 24-hour news network. That seems like that's something people want. I don't think it can live on cable because most people don't have cable anymore. But I don't know where it lives so that you can watch, like, I would like to watch 24-hour news on my computer. I mean, like, why can't that exist? And where is it? And why is it having so much trouble getting on there? That's my big question. That's my biggest question.

So I think Google has an answer for you. And which is what? Well, I mean, I think their answer is a combination of YouTube TV, right, which is like their competitor cable, right? Right. And then regular YouTube. And now how they're going to manage those two, I don't know.

But I think that they figure they want to own that video experience. And I'm curious, you know, in some ways the print stuff, you know, Substack versus New York Times is kind of like been explored a million times by a million people. But I'm just curious, like how different do you prepare or do you approach video when it's, you know,

Nicole Wallace or Morning Joe, where you've got, you know, big television cameras, sort of on dollies, you know, going all around the studio, and you've got hair and makeup, you know, versus when you do your own YouTube show or you're on Talking to Me on this channel.

So I don't wear that much makeup in real life. I don't even actually wear any makeup because I'm just like, oh. You know, but, and I also feel like, and it's a lot of work and you break out. I don't know.

I, you know, I, it's such a weird thing for me to be in a business where how you look matters because that is not where I come from. I come from writing, which is like, nobody looks at you for days and you just, you know, have twigs in your hair. So that has been very, has made me a little crazy

in a way that it wasn't crazy before. But I don't, you know, what I do for everything is that I just read, I try to read everything. It's funny because I was actually thinking about this today, it's like, there's less to read now

because there's less places. Really? Even with all of the substack and all that?

Well, I read the New York Times, because I think I don't necessarily need other people's opinions. What I need is reporting. I mean, sometimes I'll read, but it's not. What I need is reporting. So I'll read the Times, the Wall Street Journal, again, owned by Rupert Murdoch, their editorial page is like brain worms on...

Like, do not read their... Don't even look at their editorial page. It will make you so angry. Just... But the reporting is really good. It's really good, yeah.

No, they've broken a lot of news.

So, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, ProPublica, and I like The Economist a lot. It's really good. That's good to know. Yeah. And then I read the reporting in The Washington Post because it's so good.

I'm one of the 10 people who still read The Washington Post.

I like many others canceled my subscription.

You know, I just can't, I just feel like I have to see everything. That's why I stay on Twitter, too. I mean, I just need to. The value for me is more in just seeing it, despite the fact that I'm part of the problem, just being there.

This is a true story. Democracy Docket, a few months ago, crossed 50,000 premium members. It has several hundred thousand free subscribers. And there is nothing that drives our subscription or membership numbers like the Washington Post. Whenever the Washington Post does something terrible, we see, and there are people who

unsubscribe to the Washington Post, we see a huge jump. It's really remarkable. Like, so, you know, I sometimes think that, you know, and I don't want to speak for the bulwark or the contrarian or any of the other, but I sort of think like the Washington Post for a moment had an opportunity to roll up basically all of the people who subscribe to us into a pro-democracy like news outlet, you know, a editorial page and pro-democracy news.

And like literally Bezos was like, no, no, no, let great tragedies, because that newspaper was an incredible newspaper owned by a really great family that focused on, you know, the Katharine Graham legacy, you can't, nothing better, than sold to Jeff Bezos, who, for a hot minute, is like a guardian, right? And you think, oh, this guy really gets it.

And then he divorces his wife, marries a sportscaster, I don't know, which is sort of a local news anchor, and then they just go off into the sunset to have foam parties on their yacht, and he just owns it and wants it to die.

It's bizarre.

Yeah. So the other outlet that I feel that same way about, and you may disagree with me, is CNN. Like, I'm not under contract with any cable news show. And so you oftentimes see me, I'm on Nicole's show, because I think Nicole Wallace's show is really excellent.

But I pick and choose. Like I don't have to do, you know, like I don't have to do. And I used to do Jim Acosta when he was on CNN, like back in the day. I actually used to do Pamela Brown. She had a really good show back in the day.

Is she gone?

No, she's there. She's in a different, she's in a different, a different place. Now, I feel like CNN also, like for its own, like ownership reasons, has also kind of like gone in this weird direction. They're not like the Washington Post, but I mean, do you, I mean, I guess it's to the good for MS now, right?

I don't know. And that is a big question about, like, that is a real question is, is it to the good of MSNOW that CNN is bad? And, in fact, because there are people who are mad at MSNOW. MSNOW, it's so weird. MSNOW for various things they feel the anchors have done or not done.

So I don't know. I think, like, as someone who has now recently done two events with Scott Jennings, OK, one was this PBS breaking the deadlock where I didn't know who the people were, so I showed up and I was like, oh, right. And one was I gave a paid speech with him about disagreeing better after the murder of Charlie Kirk.

And I said, let's really disagree better. And then he said, we're at war with China, and that's why we have to build lots of power plants. And I thought, oh, you don't want to disagree better. You just want to antagonize the liberals. I think CNN just strikes me

as there's just not a lot of news going on there, right? I mean, there certainly are people there doing news, but the clips that I see on the Internet are people yelling at each other, which doesn't do anything for me.

It doesn't do anything for me.

But also, I mean, you know, this is like the way I felt about the Washington Post and it's the way I felt about CNN. And far be it from me. I mean, they are media geniuses and I'm just a liar. But like, did they never survey who their audience was? Well, that's... Did no one ever be like, oh, who is currently watching CNN under Jeff Zucker? Which was like a pretty forward-leaning pro-democracy tone to a lot of their coverage.

Who was reading the Washington Post? Did they never survey that audience? Because they basically, in both cases, alienated that audience. And it's not like Fox News viewers, it's not like National Review readers are going to come pouring in to either CNN

or to the Washington Post.

This is the fallacy of light MAGA, that there is a voter, that there is a reader who is MAGA but reads, who loves Trump but also wants to read, like, real reported stories on Trump's corruption. And I just don't — I don't — I think that's a false binary. And I don't think that there's a way in which you have those two things. And so what is happening right now at CBS, which a really good example, CBS, the crown jewel of

broadcast, right? 60 Minutes, so much talent there and they're more just talent, talent, talent. Barry Weiss, who I've met before, who lives in New York.

I was gonna say, if ever there was a figure who would, you would under, whether you know Barry Weiss specifically, you must know like every, every Barry Weiss fan.

Like, right?

Because they're all like in New York City in the same sort of cadre of people.

The story with her is she is, she wrote a newsletter that was able to appeal to very, very rich, powerful people. And I know this because about two years ago, one of my friends was saying, you don't understand, in Barry's newsletter, it says this, it says that, da-da.

And I said, I can't talk to you. I said what I say to all my friends like that. I say, I can't talk to you about I said what I say to all my friends like that. I say, I can't talk to you about this.

I want to be your friend. But are these Trumpers or not Trumpers?

They are a very small section of, and they are the richest section, and they're the donor class. And here's what they are. They are Zionists. They are often Jewish, but not exclusively.

They are very wealthy. They do not want to pay more taxes. Really, it's about taxes. And also Israel. Now, they hate woke culture because they feel it discriminates

against wealthy white people. They don't — they're not racist. They just don't want other — you know, they don't like — what they don't like is this thing where they're, what they don't like

is they don't like people getting, any kind of anti-racism. Now, you say, how can someone not like anti-racism and not be racist? And that, I don't know. So maybe they are secretly racist,

but that crew, you know, they don't like feeling that other people are getting their stuff, right? They feel they have for so long, you know, that's part of it. And they all really subscribe to the Barry Weissism. Now, here's the problem for that group. That group is about 20 people.

It's not about 20 people. See?

It's not millions of people. The rest of the country is not Zionist, wealthy, blue state living, liberal. You know, they are fine with homosexuality. They're, you know, they are socially liberal, but financially don't want to have to pay taxes.

That's not, I mean, that's, you know, at best that's 100,000 people. are socially liberal but financially don't want to have to pay taxes. That's not, I mean, that's, you know, at best that's 100,000 people.

Right. Not enough to sustain CBS.

Yeah. And so I think one of the big problems that Barry's going to have, and quite frankly, well-deserved from my purview, is that she's going to have to figure out how to make socially liberal but fiscally conservative appealing to a broad swath? And again, what you saw, she did a streamer. One of her first things she did a stream with Hillary Clinton and Condi Rice about the Israel peace in Israel, which, by the way, there's, in case you're, in case you want to follow up on that, there's no peace in Israel. That, that thing didn't work, but, or I guess it sort of worked, but there's still, there's still fighting. I mean, it's what it was before. But, but yeah, and nobody wants it because nobody gives a fuck about

that.

No, that's, that's exactly right. Well, Molly, you and I are going to have to continue this for another day. I can come on your podcast. We can pick up the Nick Fuentes Donald Trump connection.

And so much. You're going to come on my podcast. And I will. We'll talk about it. Yes. All And so much. You're going to come on my podcast. And I will. We'll talk about it. Yes. All

right. Molly, Jon Fass, the amazing one. Thank you for joining me. ♪♪