KITA BUAT UNCENSORED‼️- AIMAN WITJAKSONO - Rakyat Bersuara

I don't need to talk about TV, whether it's TV, YouTube, or wherever. Do you think that this is also entertaining the audience?

If we only talk about substances, it's called a seminar. But because of politics nowadays, you can't do it if you don't have a lot of money.

So, in your opinion, no money, no winning?

No. You can't.

You can't.

You can't. Are can't? You can't.

Are you a neutral person or not? A journalist can't be neutral. Can't be neutral? A journalist must be on the side.

Aiman, bro.

Hey.

You know, this is...

My veins are losing.

This is an under. Not as dry as before. But I think you practice every day.

Well, the side effects, that's the side effects. But, practice every day, yes. But I don't dare to do it too hard. Why? Because I've been injured a few times.

Oh, yes. I've been injured a few times too. Yes, it's called age. What else? If it's about age, we can't talk about it.

Sorry, I'm going to continue.

Okay.

So, I have to admit something. I'm a big fan of yours. Seriously. Every morning, before I go to the gym, I read a book in the morning.

I'm stressed. My audience is the people who are loud.

Why? I was stressed. My audience is a noisy crowd.

Why?

It's entertaining.

Sorry, I'm not underestimating you. And I don't underestimate anyone there. Sometimes I watch their debates, and suddenly I can their debate. Suddenly, they could speak Japanese.

Japanese, Javanese, and Salawat.

Salawat. And then, there was someone who brought the evidence. And the evidence was repeated. And then, the other one said, this is just a joke. I can't imagine what it's like to be you.

But... But that's democracy. be you. But that's democracy. That's democracy.

That's democracy. As for entertainment, it's a side effect. Your body has a side effect. Because of training. That's a side effect. There's a debate.

People even say, this is a split. Because people are busy. It's a tough debate. It's not avoided, hard debates. But don't let it come out of the customs.

The question is, that's democracy. Why? Because the basics of democracy, the disbelief in democracy, in democracy, is debate. Debate. Debate. Because with debate,

the truth can be found.

Does debate have to be adjusted first with the audience? The context is like this. Debate can be between two smart people. Debate can be with a debate rule. Or debate follows that our audience in Indonesia mostly... Sorry, I'm back again.

In terms of thinking, maybe it's going down. So, is it made so that it can go down? Or what?

The question is, can they remove the information that comes from outside? AI, any information, scrolling, scrolling, it can't. It can't. Suddenly, it's about this, we have B topic.

Meanwhile, the debate that opens up the dark tabir in a balanced way, then we lose it. It's impossible.

It's impossible.

It means, now, when social media is 100 km per hour, with all the information, hoax, there are some that are true too, and all kinds of things. with all the information, hoax, and so on. So, the mainstream media, the main media, with the debate, also have to go 100 km per hour. It can't be 20 km. Why?

They will run to the social media.

Which is post-truth.

Post-truth. And remember, social media has an algorithm. The algorithm is, the more people hate, the more people love.

Okay.

Meanwhile, when in the mainstream media, both are shown in a balanced way. In a balanced way, in the sense that the number, if the capacity, we can't evaluate. Wait, can't you choose who to invite. I can, but now, both of you are professors.

Okay.

You're both professors. Do you have the same knowledge? It's not certain. It's not certain. Especially for the professors and non-professors.

For example,

because of this, we do curation. Curation of source material, content, and so on. Even in the voice-over, this is one of the advantages. We imagine, in the meeting, we imagine, where will the speech go?

Where will the speech go? Oh, it means we have to have a speaker from here. Because it will definitely touch here. This will go here. So we already have a support.

So you will look for it, it means this a plan. So, you will look for the one who will be tough here, and the opponent will be tough too.

Correct.

Where will the issue be? For example, the issue is A. So, we have to have an issue A, not one person, but two.

Yes, the same toughness.

Yes, if it's tough or not, it depends.

We have to be able to answer. If we know this person's character is like this, At least there's a substance that he can answer. Now, when you do that, when it's done on TV, I don't have to talk about TV, whether it's on TV, YouTube, or wherever. Is there a thought that, okay, this also has to entertain the audience? Or not at all because this is a political issue?

Number one substance.

Because for me, entertainment. For me, okay. Because for me, it's entertainment. For me, it's an idea. Is there such a thing?

If we only talk about substance, it's called a seminar. It's called a talk show. But it doesn't dominate. It's the same as this. You want to get bigger, but your goal is to change your body.

To get bigger. Is it wrong?

It's not wrong.

I think it's wrong. I think it's wrong. Why? Because our substance is healthy. The side effects of the body change. But that's the first thing.

But there are people who want to get bigger, just because they want to get bigger.

Well, in the end, it all goes in. Doping, steroids, and all that. Life is not long.

But you can't say it's wrong. If he wants to, it's his personal choice.

If it's his right, he has the right. But if we talk about everything he did to get that, he's doping, he's on steroids, and all that.

We're talking about the context.

Finally, I have a friend who is like that. For example, he has a good body, he won the contest first. 30 years old and he passed away. Exactly. We don't look for that. It's the same as this. When we look for the controversy, we only look for the sensation.

Believe me, it won't take long.

Okay.

If it takes long or not, it's still not certain. Why? Is there an intervention?

Hopefully not. What's the matter? Is there an intervention?

Hopefully not. At this point, no.

Okay, let's say that... But as a viewer, I'm entertained. It's my right, right? It's okay, right? And TV is still entertaining, right?

You're also in charge of entertaining. Side effects. Your body, bro. Right?

Especially, I'm the most stubborn, when I'm debating, debating, debating, debating, he's suddenly a coffee. Shit, shit, shit. Man, I have a few questions, man, that are in my head. First, is it outside of the shooting? When it's a break or in the waiting room and so on.

Do they behave the same or when this breaks, the waiting room, etc. Do they behave the same, or when the TV breaks, they laugh at the TV? Because some people say that politics is only hard on the outside, after that it's also a greeting, after that it's also a little bit of a pinch. Or what you experience is different, Sir?

We deliberately have a room before we talk, we make that room one, we don't separate conversation. We made that room into one. We didn't separate it. You made it into one? We made it into one and it was open. That's why the context of democracy is a bit of a struggle.

But don't forget, there's an openness. That's why even before the show, we opened it. But we had to have a membership. There's a membership at the's not expensive, it's around Rp. 110,000 a month. We put them in a room, they talk, and all of them are members. Of course, it's a membership. They can see what's going on there.

That's before the debate. Before.

After the debate.

Next week, they can meet again. The issue is the same. We can repeat the same issue several times. After the debate, they can meet again. The issue is the same. We can repeat the same issue several times. After that, they usually go home. Sometimes there is a debate in the supporters. Okay, that's normal. But only a little bit.

But the individuals don't debate after the break?

No. Never. So far, since February 2024, it's been almost 2 years.

So they behave. Yes. They behave.

As far as I remember, there was never a police report or anything like that.

Oh yes. You, Man. You, personally. Do you have to be neutral? I think it's a bit difficult. In my opinion, if I were to be personal, maybe I would try to be neutral.

But I'm a human being, right? I can also judge. I mean, I'm wrong. Are you neutral or not?

There are many people who are wrong. Journalists should not be neutral. They should not be neutral? They should not be neutral. Journalists should be on the side. Where?

Value. Not people. So, for example, A, at stage A, they have bad policies. We have to criticize. But on the other hand, they have good policies.

We have to defend. That's what sometimes the democracy, I'm sorry, our citizens, is not like that. They say, if they criticize, it means they hate us. You with us or you against us.

Right? But it's not like that. What we take is value.

Value.

So, the reporter can't see the character. Whoever the character is, if the value is good, they support it. Whoever the character is, if the value is bad, they criticize it. Whoever the character is, if the value is bad, they criticize it.

But if you talk about it as a journalist, if I talk about it as a host of a talk show, you can't criticize anyone, right? Or is there one or two things that you instinctively criticize?

So, at the beginning of the voice, if we talk about two diametrically opposed opinions, if we defend the values too much, it will affect the debate.

So, it's one-sided.

That's why now, there are more middle ground. Even though I don't agree with this. Like yesterday, there was a release when it comes to the service. Because it's actually a value, right? When for example there is...

There are words that you said that are disappointing.

It's a very basic question. And frustration. Because last week, the scan was shown. The scan that was said to be original. Then, a week later, the analysis was done. But it wasn't from the original scan.

But from the scan from Dian Sandi.

And you were disappointed. That's it. It's value.

That's value. It's just a flow. If you want to check, it's not from the original scan. But from Dian Sandi's posting.

I understand. But as ethical, can you do that?

Of course. Because it's the truth. The first journalistic obligation is to the truth. To the truth. Because it's not a debate, right? No. There's something wrong in your opinion.

There's one thing that needs to be solved or at least asked. To the truth. Because, once again, the first journalistic obligation is to be truthful. And always say the truth. That's the most important. Even though there must be a police report at that time.

What about the people who say, this is definitely the media is not independent?

That's perception. The media is not independent.

That's a perception. With this, I was told that I was against Mr. Jokowi's supporters. But when Rocky Gerung came out, I was told that he was Mr. Jokowi's supporter. You have seen that scene, Rocky Gerung came out and walked out. I'm On one side, we are called pro there. On the other side, we are called pro here. That's the right path. That means we are right.

Yes.

You are right.

Yes, it's true.

They also mean that you are in the middle.

Yes. If you look at it, they are also confused. Where is Aiman going? Actually, the pro is not to people, but to values.

To values. Okay.

But if the attack is to you, is there? Do you have any political attacks? Like a medicine attack, doxing attack, or anything like that. I'm not talking about political attacks.

Yeah, yeah.

I've never been doxed. Because I have... I've changed my phone for 6 months. But if you dox, the data can... Especially since the data is spread everywhere. I've been getting comments,

it's a bit difficult for me to read my DMs. Because there are so many DMs. DMs on TikTok, Instagram. Even though the followers are not as far as your world. But there are so many. And there's a pro-contrast.

The content is solid. If it doesn't praise, then praise. Okay. And do you enjoy that? I've never imagined that in my life.

That's what I mean.

I've never imagined.

You're an S1.

Economic Engineering.

Industrial. I've never imagined that you would suddenly enter a world full of debate, politics, mafia, oligarchy, etc. You've never been in engineering, right?

Yes, I studied industrial engineering and economic engineering. So, I want to be a technocrat.

Wait a minute.

Actually, I used to register... I used to register for Akabri. Seriously? Yes, I still keep the list of candidates. You were still in Akabri? Yes, I was still in Akabri in 1996.

If I passed, I would be in the leading.

The leading in 1999. That's right.

That's why to remember that, my phone number is 99. Okay. The point is, it shows that I love Indonesia. But, okay. At that time, it was still Mr. Harto's era. Mr. Harto's era, right? In 1996.

Mr. Harto had an extraordinary industry blueprint. I was interested in that. From high school, even if I didn't go to the military, I went to the industry because I had to build my nation. I had to build my nation. I had to benefit my nation.

So, you took S1 with the context of the country?

Yes.

Oh, wow.

Back then, Mr. Harto, remember, we're gone now. You had a blueprint of the industry.

Yes, I know.

A blueprint of of industry. Yes, I know. A blueprint of industry. Yes. I think it's gone now. And our industrialization was shaken.

So, you can say that you're a citizen now. If so, you should take a college. The goal is not to make money. You should take a college, but the purpose is not for money and dreams. You took a college, but the purpose is to build a country.

I went to a state elementary school. State elementary school in Ciputat. State high school, state high school. I know the conditions. Even in the context that Ciputat is still a city. I went to Tangerang district, not Tangerang Selatan.

I even remember the district. I remember... I forgot the name. I even know the anthem. Satya karya kertara harja... Tangerang district.

Tangerang district is so far. I was in Ciputat. Ciputat, part of Tangerang. And I know my friend... I was playing at that time. I invited my friends to my house. I told you this story. Maybe I haven't told you this story yet.

So, my father worked at... and then he became a media compadre.

A media compadre. Okay.

He went home at one point. He went home around 2 AM. But he came back later. He usually went out for a walk. Then he went home near his house in Ciputra. He was angry.

Because he brought his friend.

He brought his friend. He was angry. Because he brought his friend. He brought his friend and he was angry. He was angry because... ...at that time, he was embarrassed. Because his friends... ...the whole house...

...smelled like sweat.

It smelled like sun.

And his friends... not what I expected. I mean, it was a state school, right? Back then, the shoes were bare. What do you call it? They were put outside. They were bare.

And there were more than 20 kids. Back then, one class was for elementary school. I still remember, 62 people.

62? Me too. State? No, I wasn't school, I still remember, was 62 people. 62? Yeah, me too. Countrywide? No, I wasn't in a country, but 50 people.

One class, 50 people. So, one classroom, three people. One classroom, three people. One classroom, 62 people. And there was no AC like now. Yeah, right. We played with the AC, and all kinds of stuff.

Right, right. We went to the gym, to the gym, to the gym. We went home, and there were 20 people in the gym. It was smelly. So, he was embarrassed. Next time, he asked his friends not to go too much. So, he said, he wanted to let his dad go home

if he wanted to eat at home. My mom also works, so she's not at home. So, we were free at that time. We went in, and I was not embarrassed. Oh, yes. In my heart, I thought, -"Dad, if that's the case..." -"Don't send me to school there."

-"Yes, please. Send me to a good school."

But that's also the case, sir. There's no AC. There's no AC. It smells, too.

But I was grateful. Why? I asked him, why did you send him to study abroad? And I really appreciated his answer. He's still around, 82 years old. So that you know the condition of this country.

Sorry, I cut it. Wow.

So, basically, your father is capable.

Well, not too much, but we don't lack anything. But he can manage it in a better place, basically. Yes.

He can, the private sector can.

But the words are, so that...

So that you know the condition of this country.

Why?

Because in the country, everything is there. Even though the half, there are a lot, there are more below.

But what is it that you do? Why would he do that to you?

And I learned a lot from that. There are still many difficult things in this country. And it's still like that. I went to my friend's house, a friend from elementary school. I didn't want to drink the water. Why? It tasted bad.

It's like a stink bug.

It turned out, after I found out, it was all made of iron. All made of iron. I didn't know that back then. Oh, it turned out that it contained iron. Imagine. Maybe he drank it's a metal. I imagined that he was a baby.

He drank it.

He drank it. I don't know if he's still alive or not.

I can... Sorry if I'm wrong. I'm sorry. But when you told me about your friend who played at home, and your father, and so on. If I'm wrong, correct me.

I saw that when you told'm wrong, correct me.

I saw when you told that story, your face changed.

You were a bit sad, you felt something. Why are you sad when you said that? If I'm not wrong.

Because I see that now, not much has changed. I also sent my son to school in elementary school. Junior high school is also a country. And I saw the same thing. The difference between now and then was that we were poor, but we were generous. But we tend to be stingy. In the family, for example.

What about now?

Now they are having a hard time. And the majority are divorced. I'm afraid of the kids. There are some, I don't know. I told my wife, if there are any, I can help from my children, my friends...

...come, we'll look for them. We'll look for them. If we can still help, we'll help. But if there are many, we'll look for them. There are many people in need, Boss. We're talking about Jakarta, you know.

And the surrounding area, Jabodetabek. We haven't talked about outside Java. Back then... We used to talk about food. We used to eat out, but it was not clear. Now we understand. But I often asked my students, what did they eat?

They did not eat. It's so clear, right? Now we understand. But I often asked my students, when I was in school, what did they eat? They didn't eat anything. They were just given some money, and they bought soda, with lemon, soda, and other things. How can they be healthy? Then I learned that we have to know what we eat.

That's what I told my children. And I told my children, you have to tell them, I mean your friends, that what you eat is important. What you eat is important.

So don't just, have you eaten yet? Yes. But what do you eat? It's not clear. Chemistry and so on. And there should be a fatwa, maybe. Because there are so many now, if we look at it. Just drink. I'm sorry, but in the mini market, for example, just take one drink. Drink it every day. It's dangerous. But that's industry.

It's okay. But there must be a warning. Warning. Like a smoke. Minimum, for example, in a week, you can only smoke a few times. Like a cigarette. Minimum, for example, in a week, you can only smoke a few times.

Like a cigarette.

More or less. And it's very dangerous. Very dangerous. We just talked about sugar.

This is a small thing. But this is a generational thing. Sorry, I'm not wrong when I say it's a small thing. This is one of the small things that people don't pay attention to. That it's a dangerous thing. But I was born in a family that was down-to-earth.

So, I can say that I was poor when I was young. My father was a micro-lead supplier.

Seriously? I didn't know that.

So, I was poor. I was poor in food. But I'm interested in what you said earlier. When I was poor, I was in a difficult situation, I was happy, I didn't feel like there was something wrong. Do you understand what I mean? But now you say that when people are in a difficult situation, it's different from before.

And what changed? It was hard at first, but maybe the family's resilience was stronger. Now people are having a hard time. And I'm sorry, the discrimination is high. So, if the child can do it, there is no problem. But if, not no problem, I mean no problem. But if they can't, then they...

They don't have parents?

That's the generation. It's scary now. Not to mention... Social media? Social media that are all kinds of things. A, B, C, and so on.

Do you agree that if there is a rule like mine, I don't know if it's in Australia or where, but it's also in China, I think. How old children are not allowed to play social media?

It's a must.

Agree?

Agree. Okay. Agree. I agree. Now, how many people, especially those in the lower education level, they give their TEP to their children instead of their grandchildren?

How many? Almost all.

The problem is, in the old days, TEP was expensive.

Now, the new ones are only 1-2 million.

The new ones.

I haven't talked about the old ones, maybe hundreds of thousands. It's a new one. I haven't found the old one. Maybe hundreds of thousands. It's not a difficult thing to get. And it happened. I've been to Sabang and Merauke. I've been to all provinces in Indonesia. I've been a journalist for 24 years. And I saw that the kids who were born in the early stages

were like this. They were wearing a cap. The kids were 4 or 3 years old. Even though they were only set up...

In the beginning.

They were only played. But the rest were the same. Which said, there was a positive. But up to them. Which is a positive thing. But there are more negative things for children below the age. Even now, for example, there are YouTube kids and all. They don't want to.

My children, for example, watch Netflix. They want to watch it. I said, we have provided it for those who are suitable for their age. Even if it's suitable for their age, it's different.

It's standard with us. Yes, that's right. That's right. If we talk like that... Now, let's forget about the politics first. What happened with the society itself? With what happened from the netizens, from the people...

We don't have to talk about the netizens, from the society, etc. Facing problems like now, even everybody needs to be fake, I think. We don't need to talk about the netizens, but the people. So, we face the problems that come to us. Everybody needs to be fake, I think. Here is an example, a very easy example. Yesterday, there was a natural disaster.

I made a content, and I helped a lot of people. Which is I don't put it anywhere. I was attacked. I didn't help, I didn't contribute. My question is, is it in the age where someone has to pretend? Is it when a time where we have to pretend?

Is it possible that when I help someone, I have to post it? Is it possible that we can't be an individual anymore? Because for me, it's dangerous. The world changes very fast. I can't say that someone I see on social media... I even talked about it yesterday. I had a podcast with Radit.

I said that psychologically, I can say that everyone is bipolar now.

What you see is not what you get.

Yes. Because what you put there is a filter. You got to be with... You got what I mean? Now, what do you think about it?

If it's just a filter, it's okay. Do you use filter for this too?

No.

If it's a filter, it's okay. But if he's not acting with himself, I think that's a problem.

Okay.

And I always... When I make content, I'm always taught from the journalistic environment. From the beginning. And where the originality of information, not the skin. If it's different, it's different. The originality of information is number one. That's what we shouldn't be betrayed.

Because once we are betrayed, once we lie about it, then we have moral hazard.

This question actually gonna go to, is politics playing like that?

It shouldn't. Is what that how you see it? So, fake it till you make it.

Either fake it till you make it or some of the things that you see is not actually true.

It shouldn't be.

No, I know it shouldn't be. But do you think it is like that?

Look, when politics is built on the basis of lies, it will cover one lie with another.

And the energy will be exhausted.

When politics is built on originality, then believe me, the universe will support us. In the sense that the human nature, the basic of human beings, is to give benefits. And when he thinks for himself, with all his lies, what happens a destruction.

Sure.

And that... It's not certain yet. And it's written in the Bible. At least the Quran that I read.

But is it certain? If we run to the Asia Valley, we run to the Nishe,

or Hitler. Is it destroyed? Yes, or Nische.

Or Hitler. Did they all go down?

Yes, Hitler. But most of them didn't survive.

All of them went down. Machiavellian was remembered as a bad person and was a reminder for everyone who did it. Even the smallest of the characteristics is then considered as a negative connotation that must be thrown away.

Okay, then my question is going to be, is it at this time when a politician who is pure, he says what honestly and so on, pure, without any games, honestly, can win without any games.

In this imperfect world. Because what you are talking is in a perfect world. This is not a perfect world. Right. What can we lie about now? Everything is open. We don't give 100% information, yes. Let's say it's only 1%. But make sure that 1% is an honesty.

The rest is 99%. We have to hold on to it by our way of speaking. Our language, the way we convey it. That's back to whoever will speak later. But what comes out of our mouth cannot be a lie. The question is,

we talk about digital track, we talk about anything, it will be exposed. No one can be lied to.

But you can put fake things on digital.

Yes, say it. A thousand lies that are constantly being said will never become the truth. We forget that there is a thing called the Nurani. And that is where we can evaluate. That is the highest level of a journalist

who, when he works, he uses his Nurani. Actually, God gives it to us, including to find himself, God.

Okay.

What about the risk?

The risk is always in our mind.

If you say that...

In fact, everything is God's domain. We always think that we will chase it and we will get it. That's our shadow. I never believed that. That's God's handiwork. Not us.

But in this imperfect world, there are not always good people.

And bad people will open up in time and they will be a bad lesson for civilization. That's the only choice. What does it mean to live 70 or 80 years in this world, but then in history, in the history books, we are written as a bad influence.

Now I ask, if you were the grandson of Machiavelli, would you be ashamed?

Oh, he ran there.

You would be ashamed to be the grandson of Hitler. It's recorded in history, it's only in the world, not yet in life after the world I believe in.

Yes, yes, yes. That's an option, once again. It's only in the world. Not yet in life after the world I'm in. Yes.

That's an option. That's an option.

But it's also true that not everyone who is good can win.

Not everyone who is good can win.

Definitely.

Maybe even harder. Yes, maybe even harder. In this world. Logically. But at that time, he will always win in the heart of humanity.

He is himself as a whole human being.

And other people who have a clean soul. And shouldn't civilization be built with that? If we talk about how lies can win, how manipulation can win, what kind of civilization will we imagine in the next 50-100 years? If it happens now, it will be worse in the next 5 years.

In the next 10 years, it will be more progressive. In the negative. In the next 100 years, it will be destroyed.

Okay. If you see it like that, I will go back to this not perfect world. What should we do? What should we do? What should the people do? What should we do?

Voice the truth. Never be tired of speaking the truth. Who do you think the truth is? The truth is in Nurani. And we can feel it. There are many people, but where is the truth?

Where is the public? It doesn't have to be far away. God gives us. I said it earlier, Boss, Nurani. Do you feel that when you want to do something, you say, don't do it.

Because there is something that is not good. Because it's like this. It's not your logic that speaks. Yes, Nurani. Nurani. Then it is translated into logic. Oh yes, that's right. Because when the logic is spoken, it's right. Because when you talk about logic,

it's already mixed with lust. Whatever it is. But when the nurani speaks, then you find the truth. And it's really beautiful when people, in every step, in every breath, what he took was his neurons. And for someone like that, he said, I don't care what I become.

What matters is that I have benefits for others.

Okay, explain to me about the corruption that has been done by people who are rich. Where, does that mean there is no money.

No. If a corrupt person steals, If he speaks logically,

he is rich.

by harming others. For example, the bridge, it must be reduced and so on. For example, the previous one was 10 years, the previous one was 50 years, so it's only 30 years.

30 years later, the technical age should be 50 years. It's a robbery. It happened in Kalimantan. And so on. Road construction. So that there is be continuous projects. Keep on adding. Keep on adding, so that there will be continuous projects. The allocation for education, for health,

will be sucked there. Indonesian education is not progressing. Indonesian health also has problems. Education. Health is not just about medication. Education as a preventive is important. What can we expect from that?

So, when people talk about corruption, Nurani has said no. But his logic, if it's mixed with the lust, it's okay, it's just a small amount. Not for me, I will also send it to religious institutions,

to the prayer house, and so on. Or I will send it back to the community. I will take the rest. But I will do it often. But they don't realize that there are other things that are affected. Don't just think about one person. The value is not just one person, but many.

Yes, of course.

And when there are many, there is one thing that we forget. They are closing each other's doors. Because they are locking each other. We never think about that. That's where Buddhism comes from. And the circle of the devil is still there.

Do we want it to be like that?

But this thing has been happening for a long time.

It's getting worse.

How?

It's getting worse. Because it's a massive issue. It can be debated. Because corruption is below. It's about how you perceive it. Or there's a value that's been dismantled.

Then you can see the value. If it was bigger, maybe. Maybe it's not visible. Because it's not visible.

If you have the context and the concept to think like that, and we know that this has been happening for a long time, it's not something new. It's not a new disease. It means that no one has ever been able to fix it.

You need a lot of energy from all of us to fix it.

Who? Who's energy?

Starting from the leader. Starting from the leader who declared war on corruption and walk the talk on it. When the leader declares war on corruption, his opponent will be very tough. And the people will help him with everything. And when he becomes a martyr, for example, he must be remembered as a person who has values that he keeps and he has benefits,

not only for Indonesia today, but civilization. Because the values ​​he fights for will be remembered forever. I don't know, maybe I'm different from others. Our goal is not to become A or B. Our goal is to become A or B, to do something. The important thing is to do it.

Oh, it doesn't have to be A or B. The important thing is to do something and give benefits.

Okay. So, the base is individual, right?

Individual for the whole. For the surrounding. From the smallest.

Because if we want to debate, I can debate again. If we talk about it earlier, when Amit Amit became a martyr or something, but he will be recorded as someone like this.

It's not certain, Pak. Sometimes history is the winner. History is the winner. But the value that is carried, the consistent struggle that he conveys, he does, he struggles, will never die. And it's not important, actually, for me personally, it's not important to be recorded in humans.

Because it will definitely be recorded in our books of our actions in our book of deeds in the heaven. And that's what we should pursue.

With your character like this, how do you hold a political event?

Because the truth is... After I talked to you for almost an hour, I think you're not right there. I like the way you think. But what you think, with what they're doing there, your head will explode. I do too. I smile a lot. Sometimes, even the DGG smiles because of stress. But I enjoy it. Why? Because I get a lot of new knowledge,

new perspectives, and all this time, I felt that I had this belief. But it turns out that I don't. It could be like this. But one thing that can't change is our conscience. Conscience to find the truth. And from that debate, it came up.

Sometimes I laugh, but I can't talk about it directly. Like I said, I can't cut it right away. Unless it's too much, I have to straighten it. But if it's still there, please debate. So that the public also knows, even though I don't hide it. But the point is, sometimes it's disgusting.

Disgusting doesn't mean disgusting. But disgusting means you want to laugh.

Funny.

Funny, funny.

Okay, like that. Glee doesn't mean disgusting, but it means you want to laugh. It's funny. Funny, funny.

Okay.

Do you have any stress?

Not at all.

Not at all? Not at all.

Not at all.

Not at all.

And I think that's something that needs to be built. With manners, once again. A healthy debate needs to be built. Because debate opens up dark spaces, opens up...

...that have never been seen before.

...that have never been seen before. And it leads to a truth.

So why?

Because people who thought, with a brother like that, he's right too. How many of us, after hearing the people speak, he's right too. What I thought was right too. But the audience is balanced.

But there are people who are right, they can't debate. A lot.

So what?

That's why it depends on our team. We have to balance the people's voices. He has substance. He has substance, but he also has to have the ability to articulate.

Okay.

When you're done doing that, for example, one episode, one episode,

there's no moment when you're really stressed? No, after that, usually he takes a slice of it with either a buzzer or whatever, or a clipper, and cuts it. Well, you know, it was fun last night. Even though I was there, I don, it was fun last night. I wasn't that excited at that time. But when I saw it, it was funny.

Because there was Japanese, there was Salawat, I laughed by myself. But if I laughed there, it was not good to enjoy it.

So, I just did it.

But the smile was there. But it shouldn't be too much. I was told to say A, B. I'm being told to smile, but I'm being told to smile. If I smile or I'm frowning or I'm a little bit cut, I'm being told to smile. It's wrong.

Yes, of course.

I'm being told to smile, but I'm being told to smile.

Yes, of course. Because you smile here, but when you face Sonoh, it's wrong. You have to do this. Yes, that's right. But is there anything from your heart, when that's happening and so on, you say it in your heart,

it's so dramatic. To be honest, often.

I can't even talk.

Poker face.

Flat.

And then, what do you do daily for relaxing and learning new things?

I never stop reading the news. 24 hours.

Seriously?

You're sick.

It's true. Because I have to know what the condition is like. Because, let's be simple. If we don't know, we can't analyze. If we know, we can analyze. And then we can see what is right, what is wrong, what needs to be straightened, what have to be able to see the development.

Like this. Then B says this. Then C says that. We have to see all of that. But in the current situation, there are a lot of people who send it. Even though...

Info, info, info.

Even though it's oversaturated. But we already have a view, right? So, if there's information about A, I can answer it. Because every day, I see it. Now, there are more on the handphone.

Or the tablet. I see information. Either it's a cut, or it's a dialogue, or a long dialogue, like 10 or 30 minutes, for example. Or other things related to the issue.

Or I do a research.

And do you do it daily? Or is it a routine? How do you get entertained?

Sport, exercise. Sport, exercise.

Sport, exercise.

Yeah. I have a little equipment at home, but it's not as sophisticated as yours. Cable cross, bench rest.

But you train at home?

At home and outside, because at home I get bored.

Oh, I see.

What about watching movies?

Watching movies? Honestly, I rarely watch movies. Rarely? Rarely. My son loves watching Korean movies. What about the audience? The audience... To be honest, it's rare. Rare? Rare. My son loves watching Korean movies.

You don't watch Netflix, right?

Rare! Rare? No, it's rare. And if I watch Netflix, I don't like watching fiction movies.

It's the same if it's like that.

I watch non-fiction movies, Oliver Stone.

It's the same if it's like that. Non-fiction, Oliver Stone. Back to that.

Yes, maybe.

I mean, you don't have any entertainment that makes you laugh, watching comedy movies or something.

When I was on the air, I was laughing. Me too.

When I was hosting a radio show.

As a host, a political reporter, etc., if you look at the phenomena of our society, even outside of politics, you can get examples. For example, the tumbler issue.

Why is it so big?

Well, you didn't follow it.

I was confused, what's the problem? It's so big, and it's made into a train, the shape of a Tumblr. You didn't follow it? I followed it, I know. Because there's a meme,

the shape of a train, a Tumblr, and all that. I'd rather see... what's it called? see cat content. It makes me laugh. That's right. Even though it's AI. I have three cats.

So, okay. What's next for you, bro? Are you going to go to politics?

No. What?

Politics? No?

I'm a coward.

You're a coward? I'm a coward.

I'm a coward.

I'm a coward. I'm a coward. I'm a coward. So, okay. What next for you, bro? Are you going to go to politics?

No. What?

Politics, no?

I'm not going to.

You're not?

I'm not. Not because of the reports and all that. Yeah, okay. But because of politics nowadays, you can't do it if you don't have a lot of money. And it is definitely, yeah. It's definitely, yeah. It's definitely, yeah. It's definitely, yeah. It's definitely, yeah.

It's definitely, yeah.

It's definitely, yeah. It's definitely, yeah. to a certain area. I had chosen East Jakarta. We need to go on a picnic. 5 buses is enough.

Wait a minute.

Who said that? It's not a device. It's not RT. But it's a group of people that can gather many people. We need a picnic.

We can go to Pelabuhan Ratu. It's enough to spend five bucks. They don't say anything about money. They just know themselves. I don't have money. We have 8,800 TPS.

We don't have any witnesses. But that's the phenomenon. So, if I count, for the DPR area alone, we need at least 50 billion.

Minimum.

Do you know how much I spent?

How much?

15 million. Just for gas.

15 million from pocket.

It doesn't make sense.

15 million is from your own money. Whether it's helped by a party that you don't know, your party can help you, right?

Most of it is from my own money.

From your own money?

15 million is from my own money. From my own money. No, no, I know 15 million is from your own money. But is there any other cost that is helped by your party, so you don't understand and you don't know? 15 million by yourself? By yourself. That's small. It's huge. It's almost nonexistent. Well, for...

Your voice is not bad, right?

12,000 and then it dropped to 8,000.

Okay, let's say 12,000. Your voice is not bad.

Yes, Alhamdulillah.

It means that...

The market that is not in the... It means that you can do politics without money. That's what you said. Because I was crowded yesterday, Boss. I was like, how many people do I want to report to the police? I want to be arrested first.

At that time, the news was amazing. That's a privilege.

It's a privilege. You can get that.

Even though my wife's child was nervous.

But I said, it's okay.

So, in your opinion, no money, no winning?

No.

No way.

No way?

No way. No way.

This...

And now we're talking about 50 billion for... More or less, right? I'm just calculating. For the witnesses. Yesterday, one witness, for example, I tried to ask, one witness asked for 500 thousand. If the TPS in East Jakarta is 8800 TPS,

it's almost 10 M. There must be a coordinator and all that.

10 M.

That's just for the sake of the witnesses, not to mention the campaign. How much do you want? That's about 50 M. So, the definition is... How much do you want to go back? How much and when? So, the definition is that

in politics, if there is no money, you will not win. You will not win. You will not win. Definitely.

Definitely?

Yes.

How to do it? How to choose? How to be chosen? I can say, regarding the media from the media side that has the most coverage, from Cale, maybe Aiman.

Yes, of course. If it's outside the press, it's okay. Because there are always problems.

That's not a win.

Only 12,000. The one that was reduced to 8,000. There are some that are reduced, I don't know where they are.

And if we say that the politics are running like that, the money has to go back.

That's human nature. How can it disappear and never come back? Right? Some people might have heard it, but only a few. Only a few, the majority. So, where does the question of whether he can bring back 50 billion? That's the minimum standard, I think, 50 billion. Where does it come from?

If we count his income, does it reach? No. He has other needs, and all kinds of things. And we want to talk about eradicating corruption and all. In that context? That's where we talk about

when we want to eradicate corruption, the biggest corruption is political corruption. Because it's a very high cost.

Can we change that?

We must. How? Because it's a very high cost. Can we change that? We have to.

How?

One of the ways is, the country, but this is controversial, the country is financing the political party. But how big? Of course, it's about the future mechanism. But when there is corruption, corruption, and so on, the law is as heavy as it is.

If we talk about the law as heavy as it is, then the enforcement of the law must be improved. This is already multidimensional, it's everywhere. If this is the only thing, it can't be. Like now, for example, the police reform, it can't be. There is still the judiciary, there judiciary. Everything has to be holistic.

It can't be the police who are reformed. Everything has to be holistic. Even the prosecutors. And so on.

Okay.

So, the last question. In your eyes, in the next 10 years, Indonesia, what do you see?

What I imagine is that in the next 10 years, education and eradication of corruption, these two things must be done. Education and erad to end corruption. Because from there, we can cover up the things that are leaking, the things that are leaking, and we can allocate to the things that are more productive. Education. Do you remember? Indonesia is independent because of the Dutch.

Because the Dutch school certain people in their country. And when they came back, they realized it.

They realized it, that's why they started the struggle.

That's education.

Change everything.

If they didn't go to school, they would be made a fool of by the Dutch. We still think it's them. But there is a quote, the Dutch mistake increased the educational standards for some people.

Some children in Indonesia.

And it became an agent of change. Then the day that finally brought us to independence. A simple example.

Yes.

Corruption eradication is about value. It's about energy, power. Because the power that was distributed by the bad people is now focused on the energy to build the nation. Through productive points. Those two are quick wins.

And I think that's a synergy. If corruption reduction can be done, the money can be used for education.

Corruption can go anywhere, right? Of course. If we talk about quick wins, if we talk about the blueprint, there are many.

Yes, it's not over.

Quick wins, what should be done? Education and eradication of corruption. Education and eradication of corruption.

Education and erad eradication. Education and corruption eradication. Education and corruption eradication.

Do you want to change?

Those two things need to be changed.

It has to change.

This is not the same as when Japan was bombed. That was the first thing that was done, if I'm not mistaken. The teachers were gathered first. The important thing is that education must go on.

The hospitals, education, first. The education should be carried out first. The hospital should be the education of health. And health is not only about the treatment. It's important. But prevention is much more important. Can you imagine? I'm sorry if we don't talk about prevention. How much burden the country has to treat people. In the future, our demography, demography is still in a triangle,

it will be straight. What does it mean? In 30 years, 20 years, we will be a lancia. And that will be a burden to the country. You may have a lot of astrology.

I understand. There are people who become a burden to the country. Majority. there are many of them. I don't know if there are people who become the majority.

There are not many people. They are not productive, unproductive, but they have to be treated and so on. It's not added with the young and unhealthy people. And high-income.

High-income and so on.

So, here we need an agent of change here, Dedy Kobusyar.

Why are you running away, man? Thank you very much. I'm very happy to talk to you. At least I know the way you think. I'm happy with everything you said. It makes sense. There are many dreams, many hopes,

in your head, in your mind, in your brain, from your father's story until now, you've become like this. I don't want to close my eyes, not everyone can close their eyes, that our country is not perfect,

and there are many things that need to be improved. And maybe with people like you, with events like what you do. Even though for me, it's a bit entertaining. But the good thing is, we can enter from any path, sir. In my opinion.

Oh yeah. And once again, I'm consistent. I say, it doesn't matter what I become.

What's important is that I can give benefits to others. And we can enter any path. For example, there are people who are interested in your show... ...because of your show. One of them, in my opinion, is... ...this is a really bad show.

But I watch it, and then I learn something.

Even though it's a praise.

And there are many.

But I learn something. I mean, the entrance can be from anywhere. Yes. You want to make it, sometimes people make it, like, the thumbnail is too provocative. Or sometimes I make a thumbnail like this. Yes, but that makes you go inside the show.

And then you get something. And then you learn something. And the context is, if it's for something better, why not?

And that is part of education.

And that's part of education. So, thank you for coming. It's such an honor. And I was going to say, wow, there's still a lot of spirit there. But he's enjoying it. Maybe if that's the case, I wouldn't say that.

Bro, watch a lot of Netflix comedy many. Your life will be calmer. Thank you, bro. Bro, watch a lot of Netflix comedy many. Your life will be calmer. Thank you, bro.

Thank you, sir.