LIVE: Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial — MA v. Lindsay Clancy — Day 17

show support for Lindsay.Her children and I hope she gets the help she needs.Massachusetts failed her and we need to stand and show people that mental illness is a serious thing and more women need support.

Rude!

Emotions good.No trick questions.You can just say what you want to say.I won't even ask you any questions.You just tell me why you're here.If you want to tell us your name though, hang on one second.

I don't want to say what happened, but I can say that she was looking for help and she didn't get the help that she needed.downplay and this is this is what happened oh i cannot deal with this right now because we have to as a woman as a mom we always have to be there regardless nobody nobody will be there ohlet me, let me take that out of your back.So I don't want to say what happened.I know that she needed help.

What do you think is going to happen?

I hope she get the help that she needs and that the world get educated and informed about mental health and a woman mental health because that's real.Do you mind telling me your first and last name and spell it for me?Jamila Rosa.D -J -A -M -I -L -A -R -O -S -A.

Is there anything else you want to say?

The system needs to change.Listen, if you let this girl talk, she's like anyone.I'll talk to anyone.

Anyone and everyone.

Well, do you want to start off with just telling us your name and spell it?

My name is Jessica Ginetti, J -E -S -S -I -C -A -G -I -N -N -I -T -T.I'm just here to, my sister and I are here to support Lindsay.It is not a protest, not a rally, just a silent support to let her know that she's seen, she's heard, but she was not seen or heard by the medical system, by her doctors, by her light on postpartum for women, because unfortunately, that is the reality.overlooked a lot.

They're all heading to the end.

Here.Oh, OK.

Let's go.We're going to walk and talk.We are going to see Lindsay, I think.I'm not positive.I think that's what we're doing, though.So here we are with everybody.

We have to listen to the police first.We've got rules.We're listening to the rules.Understand that the jurors do have a job to do.But I do think that there is different ways to go about it.I do not think that they are being tactful in the way they're going about it.

They're being rather aggressive.And I just don't see this being done appropriately.I really don't.I don't think that it is at all.

If you could say anything to Lindsay, what would it be?

Lindsay, we see you.We hear you.We wish that you were not failed, hon, and you were.And at the end of the day, I know nothing is going to bring those children back.Nothing.Hopefully this, again, will shed some light on postpartum.

And maybe that's all I really can hope for you.And you, again, you're seen and you're heard.And we hope that you find peace someday.

Is there anything else you want to say?

No, just that we're here to support you.

very moving for them.They don't forget it.

Mr. Reddington, what's your message to all these folks who are here today?

Thank you.That's all I can say.It's amazing.

Kevin, are you surprised at just how much attention this case has gotten?I mean, people are coming from Maine.

It's the message.It really is.It's the message that just has reverberated throughout the whole country.What is that message?

Reddington's fighting for women's rights.

No, I think that it's the mental health system.I hate to use the word health care, because unfortunately in this case, we can see it hasn't been health care.And I think that it shines a light on this issue.I mean, when a woman is going through what so many people do, and they go to a doctor and the doctor says, you know, here, take this pill, take that pill, take this pill, and then they basically... ...sympathizing with a mother who killed her three children.

What do you say to that?

I think it's almost like when you're picking a jury and sometimes somebody will say, well, I don't agree with, you know, this allegation of murder.I mean, none of us do.But that's what we have juries for.They pass between the government and a defendant to see if they can prove their case.I'm going to go in and see her right now.I'm sure that she is.

And if she isn't, she will be.

What do you think about it?

She's so beat up and just.

What do you think about you being the advocate for all women right now?

Don't worry about it.

We're going to be in a short recess, so we're going to bring the.

All right.

What our schedule is today and for the rest of the week.All right, so first meeting from any source about any aspect of this case that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial is to bring to my attention at this time.Again, thank you for following those instructions.You're allowed to kind of roll your eyes because I'm going to say we're going to have kind of a short day today.All right, and that is, as I talked to you yesterday, all right, it's just.something we're going to work out.

And I anticipate it will be worked out so that tomorrow could be a short day, but also gear up for a longer day tomorrow, okay?And so with that, you're not to hold it against either of the parties in regards to this, all right?

If you're going to hold it against any - I just ask you to speak into that microphone and keep your - And what town do you live in?

I live in the town of Melville.Well, to become board certified, you need minimally a master's degree in theology or divinity.Those hours are in a classroom setting where we study various additional clinical training before we can even apply for board cert.

And before you obtained the board certification and me, I was a senior vice president at Fidelity Investments in Boston.And how long were you senior VP at Fidelity?

16 years, because we adopted our fourth child while I was in graduate school.She was a 14 -year -old girl from Bogota, Colombia.

And how long have you been working now as a chaplain at Brigham and Women's Hospital?

Seven years.

In the course of your duties as a chaplain, were you in contact with Lindsay Quincy?

Yes, they did.Over the pager shift, which went from 9 to 1,p .m.,m., although I was working a full day.

You've got to object, so you can't say what someone told you, okay?Oh, okay.Okay.So I can say, as a result of a conversation with that person, what happened?

Spiritual Cares office.

Did you have a conversation with her?

See, in the tower building of Brigham, to meet with Lindsay Clancy.And unit there was freedom security, but the unit itself was concentric circles of law enforcement to even get to the room.I was fitted.She had bandages.She had a neck brace equipment that enabled her to breathe.

I'm showing you exhibit 121.Asking this may be so sure it could be bringing along but is this indicative of what she appeared to be when you first saw her That looks like it's from South Shore because when yes Similar very similar.

Yes, very similar are her the next day again.She could not speak she was intubated as well and That was the first week that she was hospitalized.

Her boob had been removed.She was able to communicate and that was on January 31st?

I believe she was extubated the weekend of Tuesday, the 31st.

All right.Tell the jurors what you observed and what, if any, conversation you had with Lindsay on the 31st.

And let me know what she said to you.She continued to look like the photoclat affect.But I remember vividly the first thing she said to me.Now, she had heard me for a couple of days.I heard her.I am so glad my children are safe.

I replied theologically.She did.She eluded me.having heard a voice did not follow the command Neither she nor her children would be safe Did she indicate any further conversation that you recall about that not about general things?The voice conversation came up several times during several of our visits now after Lindsay was transferred to Perhaps around the 23rd.

And did you continue to see Lindsay at Spaulding Rehab?

I did.

Do you know when she left Spaulding Rehab?

In the late March, early...

Yeah, Spaulding Rehab are under the same umbrella of hospitals, is that right?

They are General Brigham Complex.So for me to visit Lindsay in Spaulding, I was still within the same hospital complex.And her psychiatrist at Spaulding...

When she was discharged from, when you saw her in quality rehab in Brigham and Women's, you were, yes.How many times have you seen Lindsay at Tewksbury Hospital?

Perhaps 200 times.

You would see her at Tewksbury.

Yes.

When Lindsay was admitted to, so that, that, that opinion would be stricken.So did she express anything about her children?And their loss over that period of 200 times that you saw her thereabouts.

Lindsay talks frequently about her children.She loves them deeply.She carries.

Does that continue to your observation?

It continues presently.

When was the last time you saw her?Lindsay in Tewksbury?

Just prior to the trial starting.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Direct examination and you said that there were a lot of police officers in the area, correct?

Correct.

But you mentioned that some of them were security personnel from the defendant and from the belongings that she had at the hospital.

No, I was not aware of that.

Were you aware that that collection of the search warrant required state police in person?Were you aware that following that at any given time, there were only two officers, either Duxbury police, state police or Plymouth County sheriffs at and they were out stationed outside of her her her room, correct, in the hallway?Yes.So the only time you saw this large amount of officers present was on the 25th when there were security from the hospital and search warrants being executed, correct?

Perhaps.

notes that are contained in the Brigham and Women's Hospital records regarding your interactions with Lindsay Clancy, correct?

Correct.

And you never once wrote about any of it in any of your very detailed notes, correct?

Well chaplain notes are not verbatim transcripts.I bear witness to their suffering.

Okay, but the question was you did not document those statements.For example, on February 6th, 2023, in a note that you wrote regarding your interaction with the defendant, you said that, or you wrote, Lindsay welcomed the visit and shared her fears of, quote, not being able to walk again, end quote.She continued to express her fears of how her inability to walk may make her vulnerable to others in the future.Do you recall writing that?

Yes.

9th, 2023, that the defendant was sitting in a chair adjacent to his visits.Do you recall that?

Yes.

You also wrote in that note, Lindsay spoke hopefully of being discharged when the time arrived.And in February 13th, 2023, you wrote in your note that Lindsay also expressed hopefulness in relation to her physical progress.She feels she has gained considerable physical strength and agility despite an inability to move her legs.She didn't quote in light of recent events.Do you remember writing that?

Yes.

that you wrote in a note that the defendant expressed hopefulness with the news of her anticipated discharge to Spaulding and seemed uplifted that she would be cared for in a facility with an excellent reputation.Do you recall writing on that Paula, the defendant's mother, and Lindsay, the defendant, were playing a card game as they communed quietly, and that Lindsay expressed hopefulness with the news of her anticipation.And again, you've got all these details about her feelings and her thoughts and what she's doing, but that's folding that part of her physical therapy, she was working out with a yellow exercise band.

Formed for SSDI, were you aware of what expenses to the paralysis and being in the hospital?

from my experience with thousands of patients.

Her appearance and her feelings, thoughts, correct?

Correct.

Tell the jury what effect as a chaplain.

Because I'm not a medically trained clinician, I, a patient interacts with a chaplain, the conversations are confidential.

Do you put them in medical records?

No.

The words like Lindsay.Her words.Thank you.

I think it's an understanding and it's a conversation that's held.in confidence with the patient.

Then where it says Lindsay welcomed the visit and shared her fears of, quote, not being able to walk.I would move to have these submitted as the next exhibit, the notes of the witness in her interactions with.

Any objection?No.All right, they may be admitted.

I have no further questions, sorry.

It was straight, okay.

I have no further questions, thank you.

Okay, thank you.All right, thank you.All right, counsel, can I see you?And that includes reading it, talking about this case, watching it.Just don't do it, all right?And when you leave here today, just drive, go home, wherever you're going to go, and plan on being back here tomorrow morning at 9 o 'clock to plan a little bit.

I appreciate that.So we're able to do that.So I hope everybody has a longer day.And just remember those instructions from the moment you leave to the moment you come here tomorrow, okay?Again, thank you so much.All right.

All right.Council, what I kind of wanted to do is generally do is after we have the discussion is then kind of distribute a draft to council so we could have a more focused charge conference next day or so.But I just kind of wanted to get everybody's thoughts or kind of suggestions that they would be seeking the court to instruct the jury on.So kind of would all be jury instructions.generally the model jury instructions from the March 2026.Let me kind of hear what your thoughts are and then I'll hear from the defendant.

So for individual instructions we listed opinion I don't think there are too many but there there were some on the in terms of what we're looking for in for the charges we'd be looking for an instruction on first and second with the In terms of the criminal responsibility instruction, we're asking that the instruction regarding intoxication not be given because of alcohol.During the killings, there's testimony and I think there'll be more testimony about the defendant taking pills after killing the children.And before killing the children, she was on low dose prescription 10 milligrams of amitriptyline that was recently And then it was a low dose of Trazodone with her mother.She said that she was still waiting to actually feel effects from those so the there's no evidence of intoxication from those drugs and then the only intoxication potentially could be when she tookpills after killing the children.And even those amounts from the toxicology are low level amounts.

I'm going to ask the defendants as well, because I did read through those.And mission of intoxication as it applies in the homicide instruction with the OUI statute, chapter 90.And trying to find the real definition in regards to that.Is it the commonwealth's position that the intoxication is beyond what was the considered effect of the drugs?Do you know what I'm saying?So if it takes prescription drugs and it does create some effect, would that be?

I believe so.I think in the instructions it talks about being intoxicated to the point where it affects your state of mind or ability to control yourself.I think intoxication, especially where there's not a specific definition given in the Homicide Instructions, I think you go to the general definition of intoxication.which would not just be taking medication as prescribed, but it would be overtaking medication or combining with alcohol or other drugs.It's similar to the instructions in OUIs operating under the influence of alcohol and drugs.I think you would have to go to that definition or to the general definition of intoxication if it's not specifically defined in the instructions.

And I think the general definition in excess and to the point where it's affecting your ability to think and to act and to control your behavior.

So I've got opinion, prior consistent, prior inconsistent, redaction, stipulations, consciousness of guilt, first, second.

extreme atrocity, deliberate premeditation, and the criminal responsibilities without the... presented whether or not it's the, what we would argue is the over prescription of the medications, whether or not it's the side effects of the medications, whether or not it's the titration or the termination or the immediate cessation of the medications against what normal medical advice would be, all of those factors contribute to the state of mind of Ms. Clancy that was expressed to a lot of people, family members, people that knew her.She had indicated, I think Ronna knows the evidence, repeatedly indicated that she was affected by the benzos.She was affected, felt that she was being addicted to the benzos, trying to get off the 25 to 50 milligrams.And then subsequent to that, when there's additional SSRIs prescribed.to suggest that there's no basis to give the jury the instruction.They may determine based on the evidence that is as a result of the involuntary intoxication from narcotics, not alcohol, obviously, from the prescribed narcotics, not illegal.

Drugs so from the prescription drugs that's on all fours with a with a valid defense That they should be instructed as it relates to involve model jury instructions on criminal responsibility Obviously if there's any nuances that I would pick up I would bring that to the court's attention, but I I have tried to write a case recently with the model jury instructions.And my memory is that I was pretty satisfied.It was Judge O'Shea, I think.Yeah, actually, in that case.a year ago with the instructions on lack of criminal responsibility.I would, at some point, ask the court to charge on involvement with a component of the impact of the intoxication.

Try this case in a vacuum.You can't present the case to the jury.I know the government would like to present the case only on cruelty and atrocity.They probably don't like the statute that allows a jury to determine the degree of murder, which would be first and second, considering whether or not we're talking about involuntary manslaughter based upon the evidence that's permitted.So I would defer to the court on the instructions on cruelty and atrocity, premeditated malice of forethought, second degree malice.I would ask the court to consider instructing an involuntary answer offense and anything else that I can think of.

But right now, that's what I can.

The evidence is that there was a specific intent to cause all of the medications, most of the medications that defense counsel talked about that the defendant was having.reactions to and side effects from were before her hospitalization at McLean Hospital, and she was weaned off of that last one, the Seroquel, while she was in McLean Hospital, and then she was without those medications, and they're out of her system for three weeks, and she's just on those other three medications.So the intoxication that matters is not what happened in the fall and before McLean, it's what happened on the day of the incident.Similar, if it's an OUI, it doesn't matter if you were drunk in November, it matters if you're drunk on the date of the incident.So what matters here is that January 24th, 2023, and those other drugs and the effects that they cause to her aren't relevant to what happened on that day as they've been out of her system for at least three weeks at that point.

All right, so the Commonwealth's position would be that the relevant analysis...Yes.Yeah, good.Sure.

It occurred to me, again, as I said, it's only fresh in my mind from the case ofhad here last year.I know the model jury instructions indicate, and I'm trying to find it in here, that there's supposed to be consideration of a chalk for the court to write out the elements.Highlights, if you will, in simplistic terms, premeditated malice of forethought, I think You and I, we just had a murder case last year on another matter.And I mean, I heard your instructions, your tricks, or whatever you want to call it.And again, I did object to that with Judge O'Shea.

We did not submit the instruction list, cookbook, or whatever you want to call it, to the jury.So I think that the court's instructions would be sufficient.I would not want to have that chalk that is referenced in the model instructions.That's discretionary checklist.But I don't think we should reduce instructions on a murder case to a checklist.Consider it, and they just do exactly that.

It's a checklist.So I would ask that you not do that.

All right, so, Counselor, my general practice is not to have that kind of list.I generally don't, but I also generally full copy, and they can follow along, because the three of you know, they're lengthy and kind of dry.So they'll have those with them, but I'll Like I said, I generally don't do that chart.All right.So, anything else in regards to the instructions?All right.

So, my plan would be to have at least a rough draft available for council tomorrow.So, you'll at least have that.And, you know, depending on the timing and where we go to review those, go over the draft, and then any kind of objections or suggestions you want to make, we'll have a chancechance to do that but so you'll have again it's a rough draft that's all I could tell you and nothing's in stone but at least give you an idea kind of where I'm coming from if the parties may need is you know I'll leave we can talk about that but you know my old experience there's been a lot of evidence and there's a lot of witnesses And so if the parties feel that probably Monday or Tuesday, we could talk about that tomorrow, all right?Anything else we need to address you think?All right, and so tomorrow we'll be in recess, Dr. Resnick, and then, correct?

Yes.

Yeah, all right.You just kind of looked, I thought, uh -oh.Yeah, so that would be the thought, and then we'll just, if it's not done by Friday, it may go into Monday, and that may mean to set up the Zoom.So you're not going to trust me to set that up this time?No.I think that's a good rule.

All right.All right.So thank you, everyone.And so we'll be in recess until tomorrow.Thank you.Thank you.

All rise.