MAHFUD MD: KORUPSI KALAU MASUK RADAR SAYA SEJATINYA MASUK RADAR JOKOWI

Joko Candra was running away. It was Buronan to Jaksanagung. Buronan to Jaksanagung. But the one who picked up Polri to Malaysia was Mr. Alistio Sigit. Because this was Buronan, according to the rules, 24 hours, 24 hours after being caught and arrived in Indonesia,

he had to be handed over to Jaksanagung for execution. Do you know that? When he was brought to the police station, Joko Candra arrived at 11pm and until the next day, at 5pm, he was not handed over to the police. He was not handed over to the police. He was supposed to be handed over to the police station.

The police station called him and said, please, Mr. Minko, please tell the police that we will take the case and hand it to them. Because according to the law, the Nantuk people, if they are arrested, for the longest time, 24 hours,

they have to be handed over to the Jaksa Anagung and the Jaksa Anagung will hand it over to the police. And they handed it over until 5 o'clock. I called Mr. Idham Aziz and Mr. Jagsa Agung at that time. As a minister, I said, if you don't give the order at 11 o'clock, for the sake of the law, Joko Candra must be released.

Finally, at midnight, he was taken to Jaksa Nagung, which came to Polri, to accept Joko Chandra's surrender, and then he was officially arrested by the police. Remember, Maria Pauline, the one who was involved in the BNI case. She ran for 18 years, in 2003.

In 2003, she was punished and ran away. She lived in the Netherlands. Well, in 2021, we were arrested in Serbia because there was a movement that this person would go to Serbia. Mr. Menkoem Ham called Serbia. There was no extralogical agreement, but MLE, we called each other, and we had a plan to enter. The number was already set by both countries, and we knew that the Minister of Justice was going there in secret. The Minister of Justice went there in secret, and was arrested and brought there by the Minister of Justice.

At the airport, he was immediately taken by the police. So, the arrest was's just right and left. President Jokowi entered the radar at that time, sir. Of course he did. Of course he did. But he never discussed with you?

He just came to me, he just came to my radar. Polri, since the replacement of Mr. Prabowo, Mr. Jokowi to Mr. Prabowo, I don't think there's even one. In fact, Polri's hand is the one that should. Prabowo, Mr. Jokowi to Mr. Prabowo. I don't think there is any. In fact, the one in the hands of Nipaldi, who should be corrupt, is not corrupt. If the president is good, it's good. If President Prabowo asks a question or offers this question to the UII Supreme Law Teacher,

Supreme Law Teacher, what if I give amnesty to Noel?

I disagree.

I disagree.

Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Sobat Madilok, the last sentence from my narasumber is disagreeable. This indicates how my narasumber seems to have a double standard related to amnesty to those involved in cases of corruption. Let's try to ask for an answer from my narasumber, which is Prof. Mahfud MD. His status is long. He is a judge, an academic, a minister, and a professor. I'm sure all of you know Prof. Mahfud MD. Thank you for coming to this discussion.

Why didn't you agree to give Noel an amnesty? Why did you disagree with the nomination of Noel?

The nomination process was far different.

With?

For example, I agreed to the nomination of Tom Lembong. Abolishing Tom Lembong? Abolishing Tom Lembong and the nomination of Hasto and other friends. The establishment protests are different. In Emmanuel, there is no political debate, there is no issue that he is politicized or criminalized. While Tom Lembong and Hastto were more active in that way,

and the strange process of the trial, which did not listen to the evidence and did not consider the evidence or the legal logic that was proposed, for example, the judge did not want to listen, the judge didn't want to care. The court was clearly wrong. While for Noel? For Noel, he was suddenly suspected and he didn't deny that he received it.

But he said, I didn't receive the money, but I didn't receive the OTT. I did not take it accurately. It's not that I don't accept the money, but it's not that. I do think it's not accurate. I don't quite believe what I heard, Mr. Mahfud. If you are a political teacher, I can understand the reason why you are a political teacher and so on. As you said, but since you are a law teacher,

what can you say that you don't believe in the process of legal action against Tom Lembong and Hasto, but you believe in the legal action process that was done to Noel. Because the process, if Noel was taken immediately and then immediately given the ceremony,

there was no debate, no objection. If this was done first with preconditions, for example, Tom Lembong, it has been said many times, why should Tom Lembong? There are other ministers before and after him. During the trial, Tom Lembong had a key witness named Rini. She was not present, not forced to come.

Many times Tom Lembong also said, I was ruled by the President, why should I be responsible? And after Tom Lembong got the abolition, the president admitted that he was the one who ordered it.

Right? Why wasn't it investigated by the judge? So, in my opinion, if it continues, it will be lost in the end. The same thing, I think, the same with Hasto.

We all know that the HASTO event happened in 2020, in February. If it's a problem, why didn't it happen at that time? It means that the one who blocked it was not HASTO. Actually, the KPK itself works with the political power, of course, no need to mention anyone, that this has to be protected at that time. Now that there is a political conflict, then it seems to be targeted.

Everyone knows, right? Therefore, in my opinion, please. That's why I started by saying that abolition or amnesty doesn't need my consent. It can be done by the president. The people can understand. I am one of those who understand it too. In other words, Mr. Mahfud wants to say that the process of justice for Hasto is a failed process of justice?

Failed.

In other words, Mr. Mahfud also said that Hasto did not do the swap. He did the swap. Still. So, it's a betrayal if he did the swap. No, it's like this. Doing the swap,

I said it was a long time ago. And it was actually rejected in there, but it was decided by Mr. Swap. The obstruction of justice, no. I know the obstruction of justice. Why was Hasto released from the obstruction of justice,

in my opinion, because if the obstruction of justice is properly carried out, and proven by the judge, he will surely rebut the obstruction of justice to others, because Hasto himself has been identified with the same case.

The same case at that time, exactly what is being done now. Why didn't it happen before, all of that was already in the KPK? Why didn't Mr. Mahfud use legal argumentation? It means like this, if the trial process against Tom Lembong was considered as a misjudgment, there is a comparison mechanism, there is a mechanism to compare, there is a mechanism to question, and so on. That's how it is with Hasto.

If, for example, Pak Mahfud or even Hasto himself believes that Hasto did not commit a corruption crime, why didn't he consistently fight for the law to remain on the legal path? Because from the beginning, it was already misguided. Of course, in the end, it was already lost. It will definitely be lost in the end. That's why, I think the President came down here.

Now what is the controversy about Noel? Nothing. The legal process that was started in a lost way, is believed to be lost in the future. Yes, if it's in court, in the judiciary, it will definitely be forced too.

In a way, Mr. Mahfud said he doesn't really believe in the judicial system. Since long ago. Since long ago, I don't believe in cases involving politicians. Since long ago, not now. And I don't think it's just me, the people who don't believe in it. All the activists of the law enforcement always find cases where the court cannot be trusted.

For example, you want to ask about the case of Zarof, it shows that the court cannot be trusted.

The Supreme Court?

Yes, the Supreme Court cannot be trusted either.

The Supreme Court can't be trusted?

Many of them cannot be trusted. That's why I say in many cases, not all cases, in many cases, and it's very easy to prove it. How can a judge be arrested?

Now I understand. The calculations of Mr. Mahfud, Mr. Mahfud's prediction, the process of legalization of Noel,

will it be trusted or will it still be an untrustworthy trial? Let's see the development. If I believe this, maybe I will get a good judge, the process will be good, because it's hard to deny. We can feel every case, what's behind it, where will it end? Now, the political situation, in my opinion, Noel doesn't have a political party that can defend him now.

And the KPK will really give a legal amendment to the construction. to give a reasonable ruling. This is an analysis. Since when did you put high skepticism towards our law enforcement agencies? It's been a long time.

Since I put skepticism against law enforcement agencies outside of KPK, I have been putting skepticism for a long time. But if it's for KPK, since the replacement of the Angkatan Agus Raharjo with Saud, Laude and so on, it's still good. Since then, it has become chaotic. Since the era of Firli Bahuri? Since the era of Firli Bahuri, yes.

That's KPK. What about Polri? Why?

What about Polri?

Polri has been around for a long time. Since long ago? Yes, since long ago. In many cases, except for the pure criminals. For the criminals, I salute Polri. That's why I said Polri should be protected.

It's good. Its performance is outside of corruption. Regarding KPK, you can mention the era when KPK was still trusted, and when KPK was totally bankrupt since the time of Firli Bahuri. What about Paul Ri? Since when? Can we use the same way of thinking? Who is the leader that made Paul Ri become a saying that can no longer be trusted? I don't mean the leader, just my experience.

When I went to the IMK, I was criminalized by the police. Okay, I have a small question. You are highly skeptical about the legal system, about the KPK, about the police, about the Constitutional Court? About the Constitutional Court, as long as it is arrested by Akhil Mukhtar.

As long as it is arrested by Akhil Mukhtar, I'm still skeptical. Until now? Akhil Mukhtar. After Akhil Mukhtar was arrested, until now. What else? Until now, right? Because of Pak Manusman. Yes, what else?

Since then. But I'm sorry, Pak. So, if you have always thought that such institutions cannot be trusted, then allow me to ask, how effective were you when you were the Minister of State? I will ask you again. If you were the Minister of State, what could you do? If you know that the polarization is not correct, what could you do? I can.

I will go a case. I will file a case. I have already done that in certain cases. If I don't report to the president, I can't do that. If I don't report to the president, I will be fired. I can't. But if the case doesn't come up, it can't be structurally.

Especially if you are a minister, even the president doesn't come up, it can't be done structurally. Especially if you are a minister, even if you are a president, you can't do it. If the case doesn't come up, how can you solve the problem in Polri? What I do is, I go to the public. So, I can solve the problem in the community.

Case by case, right?

Case by case. It can't be done by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Polri has its own laws. Menko doesn't have its own laws. So, if you see Menko from the past until now, he doesn't do anything because he doesn't have the power. I'm the only one who does that.

So, if you ask me that, I'll go back. Try to be Menko now.

Can you imagine how hard it is for me? It's really difficult, Pak.

A Minister of State must be backed up by a President. If the President is just a guy, he won't listen to politics, he won't listen to the great job.

That's it.

Okay, let's go back to Noel now.

The last moment, Emmanuel Ebenezer. You are predicting that the legal process against Noel will be a mess. Can you believe it? I feel like this because Noel no longer has a political pattern. He doesn't have a political background, as you said. Yes, so he will be forced to take credit from the KPK will take credit from there. I'm really like that, right? There will be no excessive slander.

Who wants to be a political bait for Noel? Now I'm back. Does it mean that Tom Lembong and Hasto were told by President Prabowo that they will get the National Police? Because they both still have political bait? The political bait is public.

Who is Noel? The political bait is public. If it's Nulil, who? The political parties are, for example, the PDIP. Then there is, what is it called, he can build an opinion that, Tom Lembong, the public also knows that he is ... He is not a purple voter. Yes, he is not wrong, but he is Nulil.

Then the president who is down, right? Not a political issue. Maybe the political interest of the president benefits him. And I agree with that. Because if it is left, in my opinion, until the end,

it will not be able to defend Lembong or Hasto. According to Pak Mahfud, why did President Prabowo point to Noel as a mannequin? I don't know. Because of the competition? No, not because of the competition.

I always think like this, Reza. I never question who Prabowo pointed out. Because I know that the use of the president and issues can be a political trade-off that is normal for a president. Maybe he has a duty and we can't challenge him,

unless we face a case like this. Well, that duty is really behind my head, when I asked the previous question, why do you think President Prabowo pointed out Nore as a traitor? I'm sure you know, Prabowo is a mania. There are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of supporters

who are ready to give their voice to Prabowo-Gibrat's duet, who is the commander of Prabowo-Mania?

Noel, Prabowo.

It means he still has political influence. Yes, political influence at that time. It's not certain yet, Prabowo would be a political party. Right? Because he knew that Pak Prabowo was, I think it can't be hidden,

he was the person who hated Prabowo the most, Emmanuel. Suddenly he joined Prabowo. If I were Prabowo, I would be the first one, the first person to be hanged. Is there a contrast between, say, Mr. Mahfud's reason for targeting abolition and amnesty against Tom and Hasto.

Mr. Mahfud said, yes, because more or less, the law enforcement agencies are not trusted. Yes, in these two cases. In these two cases and since a few years ago, it's been a long time.

Meanwhile, the president gave abolition and amnesty for the sake of unity, harmony, restoration. There is no legal argumentation. It's okay. He's looking for excuses, but in my mind, abolition and amnesty are given the right to the president to do that, to intervene in a process that is subjectively determined by the president himself. Including, it is allowed based on the personal considerations of the president.

But if I mean, the president when it is subjectively can see the public reaction, it's not good. I can imagine, Pak Mahfud, if you become president, maybe it will be a bit royal to give the police the power. Because I will never do a political trade-off that will make me angry. Right?

People who can do that, maybe because they have political trade-off, something, then something else happens, they can do that. I know that the abolition of amnesty is an extraordinary situation, with extraordinary considerations. It can't be just casually discussed like that. Therefore, it is predictive, not a legal analysis.

What does it mean? Predictive means we can estimate the politics. Well, because of this politics, the president's policy can be lowered. It can't be a poly-abolition, it can't be with legal measures. According to the case of so and so, that's the president. Well, when we see the president will do that, we do the assessment of political configuration

in the middle of the community, that will affect the president. Mr. Mahfud, frankly, I try to change my mind with so many judges who are still active and retired judges related to amnesty and abolition for Hasto and Tom. I'm sorry, can I believe it? Not a single judge, both active and retired, is happy with the existence of amnesty and abolition from President Prabowo.

Until then I draw a conclusion like this, more or less. Perhaps amnesty and abolition are only beneficial from a political point of view. But from a legal point of view, this is a very bad president for the eradication of corruption crimes. It's possible. People with that opinion can do it. I'm not a happy person, but I understand why it has to be done by the president. Why does Prabowo have to do that?

There are many factors, of course. That's why I say, amnesty, abolition, don't look for the cause. Why is it that people are based on the law, the cause is this, the evidence is that? No, that's the subjective right of the president.

For every derogative right, there is a subjective consideration. Because of that, people can agree or disagree. You can ask the judge, there is no one who is happy, but there must be other people who are happy, who may not be a judge, or a police officer, or police, or whatever.

It can be all kinds. That's why amnesty and abolition are not the basic issues that can be made when it will be dropped. There are many reasons. That's why there are no basic reasons for amnesty and abolition. When will it be implemented? Is it because it doesn't fit the research? No. So, during the time of President Jokowi Dodo, there was an amnesty to Baik Nuril.

Mr. Mahfud was already in the Cabinet at that time. Not only Baik Nuril. I gave amnesty through President Parabowo his name is Saiful Majidi, a lecturer. Baik Norel was also in the era of Mr. Prabowo. Sexual education? No. So, he wrote and wrote his faculty through MSOS.

Then he was fired by the dean. He was promoted to the highest level to the Supreme Court level in Kasasi. It was about to be dissolved. Then, there was a civil society movement that came to the office. They said, it's not wrong, but they criticized why it was fired. If it's done, the government will lose its position as a state official

because it can't be amnesty to the DPR on behalf of the President. I was a full-time MP. At that time, the letter was not read by you, because you were in France. But I called Mr. Dasko.

If this is not broken in this week, next week he will be finished. There can be no amnesty for the violation of the law. But you have to ask for an aggression. If he asks for an aggression, he can't return as a state official. That's the truth, Pak. In the DPR, at that time, it was decided in the plenary session, Mrs. Puan Daadir, it was decided that on behalf of President Saiful Maddi,

he will get an amnesty. That day, the amnesty wasnesty. He is now a state official. So, it's very subjective. So, there are people who ignored it. Okay, I'll correct it first. It means my memory is a bit messy. Because the one who is related to sexual harassment is like a teacher with his head of school.

If I'm not mistaken, he also got amnesty. Yes, that's the good thing. For example, Pak Mahmud, So, what is your initiative? Communicating with the DPR, is it a request from President Jokowi Dodo or is it your initiative? My initiative was to refer him to the president, Jokowi Dodo. Because he was in jail, but about to end his term in prison,

but his case hadn't been closed yet. If he had gone out, if he had committed a crime, he could have done it again. It means that the punishment that could have asked to the president, only the grace. If it's grace, it means that he has admitted his mistake.

Right? He admitted his mistake and apologized, asking to reduce the punishment. If he has admitted his mistake, he can't return to being a state official. Right? That's what I did. Then I came to the president,

he said, Oh yes, please help me. Then I wrote a letter to the DPR. But the DPR didn't have the letter. So, the letter was about to be recessed. The last part of the letter was about to be recessed, but it wasn't read. I said, if it's not read, I'll wait for it to be read.

I said, it's already a law enforcement. They said, sir, it's finished. I called the DASK it, and went out. That day, the amnesty letter was also there. So, this is not the first one. Do you still remember, Mr. Mahfud, when you were a minister,

how many names were asked to get amnesty? For me, only Saiful. Saiful Mahdi, who before me was Baik Nuril. That was before the end of the first period. We want to enter the second period. So, actually, there are a lot of amnesties. The most people ask for a grant.

Almost every time we are asked for a grant. But because there are too many, it doesn't become a news. I can see how much of the inheritance, if it's an amnesty or abolition is given to those who have political problems. So the reason for the unification is in my mind.

The perpetrators of the riot and so on. But when it is narrated as amnesty, abolition for corrupt actors, it doesn't sound good to me. It's the same with me. But if there is a political element to the case, even though it doesn't sound good,

it's still drinkable. It's a drinkable, it's not good. But it has to be drunk. For example, it's okay. And that's just a matter of perspective. How do you view corruption as an individual or systemic crime?

Individual through systemic. Yes, the bad people are individuals. But they go through the systems that are available, through the wide network. Because of that, when the abolition was given to Tom Lembong and the amnesty was given to Hasto, does the corruption case also mean to stop? In my opinion, if there is an amnesty, there is no longer any demand.

Against those who are involved? Against those who are involved. But what about the case? Regarding the case, if there are other suspects, it's okay. If it's related to A, B, C, D, for example, you might ask Harun Masiku,

he should be chased. He still has to be arrested first. It's the same with Tom Lembong. If you want to be honest, the court, it must be reopened. Tom Lembong has been given amnesty,

but for Tom Lendong's personal, the others have been reopened. So, the benefits of the work of the government are not included in the budget for the same period? No, I think it's still open. There are many other options. Amnesty, except in the same boat forever. No, I think it's still open. There are many other options.

Amnesty, except in the riot, amnesty usually happens individually. It's called this, this, this. But if Bung Karno gave amnesty to the rioters, you are the rioters, the PRR or whatever, come down from the mountain, come join the Republic.

You don't have to mention the name. But the figures are also in prison. But the people who participated are free. There is no one who is recorded one by one. I agree with Mr. Mahfud. So, amnesty and abolition are related to the individual, but the case, the legal record, should not be included in the long-term PTS. It doesn't go into the PTS for a long time. Because it will become more political later.

If this time, it's left alone. It becomes more and more proven that it is political. But it becomes a double-edged sword too. If the case is continued, the evidence is expanded, until then there are people who are involved in the TV Corp case,

they will definitely hope to get amnesty and abolition. Yes, please. That's why the amnesty and abolition are the subjective rights of the president.

Right?

The subjective rights, please. That's okay. That's why we elect the president. That's also why the constitution in every country gives the president the right to do things like that based on his subjective rights. Right? My subjective view is like this.

It's okay, Mr. President. He will be responsible for the implementation of the constitution. I always see a double face in the politics of President Prabowo's law, like in the TV Corp. On different occasions, he said the 50 years of prison for corruption. He was imprisoned in the smallest island. He ran away to Antarctica, and I chased him. But amnesty and abolition actually show a face that is a contrast

with that rhetoric. For you, it's just like that. But if I look at the cases, it's just one case. It means that the Prawowo Swear to attack corruptors like Harvey Moes, to imprison the smallest corruptor, is one thing that still happens. But still, in a casuistic way, he can look at this case, whether it should be given amnestynesty, it's up to them. Isn't it that the policy, if it's called the president's policy

related to the amnesty and abolition, will break the KPK's banner and the labor union? They are very enthusiastic in hunting down the corrupt. Is it useful for us to work hard until we are exhausted, if in the end there is anti-climax, there is amnesty and abolition? Maybe, but I don't think so. Because the president is in charge of the protection of the law. And I think, maybe the protection of the law is even felt to be helped.

Oh yeah?

For example, if the Tom Lembong case is to be continued, there have been attacks in various ways, in legal terms, it's not logical, because you are backed up by a group. Then, the Nagong's surveillance, maybe there are people who are afraid of this group. Then, the Paraboh who gave up, he was fine with it. The President gave up.

I let go of the public attack, let go of the effort to explain things that actually don't make sense. It depends on the political configuration. I think we are happy sometimes if our tasks are intervened because we can't go there, then you have to go down. It's not easy. It's possible. It's possible in the legal field, even though it's not the institution.

Personally, I believe there are things like that. Because you're talking about institutions, now I want to ask you, Pak Mahfud. In Indonesia, there are three law enforcement agencies that can deal with corruption issues, right? There is KPK, Kejah, and also Paul Ring. If I ask for Mr. Mahfud's help to evaluate each of the keynergy, especially related to Tipikor, how is it? Who do you think has the most fantastic keynergy?

For Tipikor?

Especially for Tipikor.

Do you want to evaluate now or during its history?

Oh, not now.

If now, in my opinion, the best one is Kejaksanagung. Kejaksanagung is the best. It doesn't hide anything. I think in the last survey, it is also the highest in the compass. And it makes sense to the people.

If I see KPK, it is just about to move forward, it is moving forward. But I believe that KPK is now starting to let go of certain political parties. Why is Mr. Mahfud saying that he is starting to dare to look at KPK? The indication is that he is daring to arrest Emmanuel, who was said to be a jokomania, then a parabowomania, and so on.

He dared to let himself go. Now, ministers have also been called. Ministers in the era of Mr. Jokowi, I heard there were also some governors, so I saw that the KP have also started to... So I saw that the KPK has started to get involved.

And in my opinion, let's support it, including this Emmanuel case. Why? There are three interpretations of the Emmanuel case. The first interpretation says that it is Mr. Prabowo's determination. Because when Mr. Prabowo left, the DPR arrested the corruptors, and they were arrested immediately.

But there is a second interpretation that said, Noel would not be arrested if it was not under the government of Jokowi. There is such an interpretation, right? Why? Noel betrayed Jokowi. In the past, he was an amazing supporter, and now he is defending people who attacked Mr. Jokowi,

which was Munarman and Abdul Samad. And finally he defended and attacked Sylvester. So, Mr. Jokowi was arrested. It's easy to find the evidence. So, it's also a criminalization. Yes. This is the second interpretation.

The first interpretation was because of the effective indictment of Mr. Prabowo. If I look at it now, the third interpretation, the KPK has started to rise now. If I look at the movements in the last few months. So, that's why, Mas Tirajah, I said, it doesn't matter if it's because of Prabowo's statement

or because it was ordered by Jokowi. For me, it's not important. The important thing is if the corruptors are caught.

If I make a ranking,

it means that Kejaksana Agung is in the first place, sir.

Right now.

Right now.

In the TVCORS breakdown, right now.

It's ordered by KPK. It's ordered by KPK.

What about Polri, sir?

Polri hasn't. We don't see Polri now, how many cases of corruption have been filed. There is a corruption crime directorate. Yes, there is. What makes it seems like Polri hasn't been able to fill the report? It seems like it's a mess. Because if we look at Polri,

handling small cases, I think it's good, cases that are not corruption. But Polri, since the replacement of Mr. Prabowo, Mr of Pak Jokowi to Pak Prabowo, I think there is no one. In fact, what is in the hands of Polri, which should be corruption, is not corruption. For example, what? For example, in my opinion, Pak Garlaud.

Pak Garlaud. Okay.

What do you think, Pak? Yes, the common sense is to say, how can people, it is clear that it violates article 33 of the Constitution that the sea cannot be done by private business. That's clear. 264 certificates can be issued. If it's not a crime, it's impossible. If the crime is said, it's just a document violation, it's impossible. A document violation, how can it be up to 264? Moreover, there are corporations that clearly have it.

Mr. Mahfuz, do you agree with the assumption, or there are some people who have a theory like this, that the corruption eradication depends on the president? It could be. It's true. If the president is good, it's good. But back to the issue of the sea, hasn't President Prabowo spoken out since the beginning?

That's what I always say. Why? Mr. Prabowo is not a very strict person, but why is the sea so backward? Even though he was the one who pushed it. But it feels like it's a joke.

That's why it's a question. I once said, the mafia network is too strong for big corruption cases. So, it's too late. It's like this. If it continues, it won't work. It's like when we talk about the sea,

the public has gone down, the logic of the law has been lowered, activists have gone down, the media has talked, but in the end, there is no news.

Until now.

Do you believe in President Prabowo's commitment to fight corruption? I hope I can believe it. You hope you can believe it. I hope you can believe it. Yes, I still believe it. But we see that there are problems that cannot be solved

in a serious way. Including the sea. It's easy. If we have the same position, that we put our trust in President Prabowo's commitment to eradicate corruption. But in the case of the sea mine, it turned out to be a mere rumor. So, the problem is not with the president, right?

Not with the president. So, I said ... Who's behind it? The mafia, sir. The mafia is behind it. The mafia is heavier. I mean, back then, for example, Prabowo or Mas Reza, when he became the president, there must have been political processes. How he gave support, etc. Well, when it happened, this Malacca coup,

it turned out that this person was not good if he was directly attacked. That's what is called political terrorism. It's not good if you get hit directly. That's what we call political terrorism. It's not good. I'm like this, and I have to be punished. You can't hide that. If it wasn't for that,

what would it be difficult for a president to tell the sea guard to follow the order of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? What is the order of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? That's corruption. But the police don't want to. The case of Judol.

It's clear that the brain is here. But it's directed to the small people who are doing ordinary cases, the general case. But the brain is here. It's hard to guess, and it should be guessed. It's related to the news that can be studied now.

President Prabowo's thinking is not as long as Pak Mahfud's. Why do I say that? Because the president said our energy is good.

Yes.

So there is no problem, Pak. Maybe. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not wrong. The issue of title defection is over. Let's assume that. Because there is no problem. Well, maybe Prabowo thinks like that. It's not my right to say,

you have to change, Mr. Prabowo. That's up to him, right? Well, we as a people have to speak up. This is not right, right? Yes, Mr. Mahfud earlier placed the Agung case in the first place, at this time, in the border of corruption crimes.

The government had to ignore the news related to Jampitsus, the special criminal youth vigil. It was picked up by Dens 88, the Agung's vigil building was surrounded by, it surrounded by a certain union from Polri, then the event at Borobudur Hotel. What can I understand, sir? I really don't get it. What is this Jampitsus problem with Polri?

Is this because of Jampitsus the embezzlement? I don't know the truth. Of course, I don't know the truth. Because the police themselves don't explain it clearly. The embezzlement is also not clear. But the problem continues. And after that, suddenly the Ministry of Employment just wanted to work with TNI.

They don't want to work with Polri anymore. Even now it has reached the regions. It's actually not in accordance with the law. It's not allowed. The current laws are not allowed. The police law, the law of law enforcement, states that if the police want to ask for TNI's help, it's okay. But those who ask for the police,

not the police themselves, but the police, because the police feel that they are not able to do it, they have to give up. Well, based on my experience, I also experienced some disharmony between the police and the government. In many cases. What was the cause?

I don't know. Was it a case of conflict? I don't know. Whether it was a case or something else, I don't know. Or maybe I just wanted to feel that one was superior to the other. I don't know. If there had been a conflict between these two institutions, coincidentally the color of the suit was both brown.

Old brown and young brown. President Jokowi was on you get into his radar? Of course I did.

Of course?

Of course. But you never discussed with him? He just came to me. This is how it is, Polri. I don't think I need to report it. He must know it himself.

Oh, you mean the president must know it himself? I just acted. In the things that I have to solve, I did it. I solved it. There are many cases.

For example, do you still remember Joko Candra? Joko Candra was running away in the forest. He was the one who took Polri to Malaysia. Because according to the rules, he was supposed to be caught for 24 hours and then he was supposed to and arrived in Indonesia, he had to be handed over to the Jaksa Agung to be executed.

Do you know that? When he was brought to the police station, Joko Candra arrived at 11 pm, and until the next day, at 5 pm, he was not handed over to the police. He was not handed over to the police. He was supposed to be handed over to the Jaksa Agung.

Well, the Jaksa the police called me and said, Mr. Mahfud, please help us. Excuse me, who was the police? The police was already Mr. Burhanudin. He was from Joko Tandra. Joko Tandra was my time. I see.

When he was there. I was in Malang. Mr. Mahfud, Mr. Minko, he said, Please tell Polri that we will take it and hand it over to them. According to the law, if a person is arrested, he must be handed over to the police for at least 24 hours. And the police will hand him over to the police station.

He will not be handed over until 5 o'clock. Why? Polri's reason is that Joko Candra is committing kamisidek in another case, not the case of the varnish that he ran. What is the other case? He violated immigration, he tore his registration in the Red Notice, so he killed Napoleon. Then in Kejaksana he was in violation with Pinangki. This is Kamiside. And it was already punished twice.

But that's not the problem. The problem is the police didn't want to let go. So, finally, I took a middle road through the phone from Malang. Sir, this is it. Who did you call? I called Mr. Ida Masis and Mr. Jak Sago. At that time, as a minister, I said,

if you don't hand over the case at 11 o'clock, according to the law, Joko Candra must be released. But the police said, if he is released, we still need two new cases, for Pinangi and for Bonaparte. we still need two new cases, right? For Pinangki and for Bonaparte.

Well, in the middle of the night, they took the middle road to Jaksanagung, which came to Polri, to accept Joko Chandra's surrender, then officially appointed, and also appointed to the police.

It was just finished. and officially handed it over to the police. Then it's done. It's not that easy. Actually, the law requires the police to pay the tax, and then the police will pay the tax. So, it's the tax that comes to the police.

It's the same, Pak.

We picked up Maria Paulin from Serbia. Remember, Maria Paulin, the one who was involved in the BNI case. She ran for 18 years, in 2003. In 2003, she was punished and ran. She lived in the Netherlands. Well, in 2021, we were arrested in Serbia

because there was a movement that this person would go to Serbia. Mr. Menkumham called Serbia. There was no extralight agreement, but MLE, Mutual Legal Assistance, so they called each other. There was a plan to enter, the ticket number was already scanned by both countries, it was already known, Menkumham went there quietly. Menkumham went quietly. He went there quietly,

and was arrested and brought there by the Minister of Justice. At the airport, no one was allowed to do anything. He was immediately arrested by the police. So, the police only took care of the right and left. So, Pak Anunya, I think the public should know that this kind of thing

is a hindrance to our legal process and the smooth process of the relationship between the institutions, especially between the law enforcement agencies. The law enforcement agencies must be synchronized. We also create a system of management of criminal acts integrated through the SPPTTI. That's where every case that comes in, there is a date, later every time it be controlled by the IT.

So, we know what's missing in the middle of the road. But there are many things that are not intentionally put here, even though it has happened. Why? Because it can be processed before entering, it can be pressed before entering. Because if it is already submitted,

the court will say, this is submitted on the date, why hasn't it arrived yet? Why hasn't it arrived yet? There should be an explanation at every stage,

at every stage,

until the court is finished. Well, this is not going well. Because many law enforcement agencies don't want to submit this in a process like this. Prof. Fah, can I ask you a correction?

There was an incident that was narrated by the media as the excavation of the Kejaksan Agung building

by the Brimob personnel, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, that's right. At the end of President Jokowi's time, right? So, you were still in the Cabinet at that time, I think. Or you were already in the cabinet at that time, I think. Or did you run for president? I think I was elected president but I was not appointed yet. That's the case, right? The case of the drone. I was not elected. The president was still Pak Jokowi, but Pak Prabowo has not been appointed.

Okay. What I want to ask is, even when there is a clash between the polri and the Kejaksaan, which is the end of what happened in Borobudur Hotel, President Prabowo has not appeared yet, right? Or am I wrong? I think President Prabowo hasn't appeared yet. Until now, I think President Prabowo hasn't talked about it either. He didn't talk about it, except when he suddenly asked to work with TNI. So that TNI can start. But regarding the case itself,

the case of Pengepungan, the case of corruption charges that were thrown at Jampit Sus, and so on. Mr. Prabowo hasn't said anything yet. Okay. Kijaksana Agung is in the first place, followed by KPK and the last one is OLRI. KPK's portfolio is now spectacular,

especially in the case of Noel, right? KPK, then Noel. It's a big hit, right? Yes, yes. KPK, then the Noel case. I think there are many small cases. The calls from West Java, East Java, North Sumatra. I think it's okay for the spectacular cases, but there are none.

I don't think the Noel case is spectacular, just because it's Wamen. Just because he works as Wamen? Yes, because as Wamen, he's just a reccehan. That's it. At least KPK has a little report.

Yes, I hope this will be part of KPK's rise from the beginning. And indeed, KPK is And what is KPK for? It's for the fear. Nowadays, the society should be more afraid than the political group or certain people. And maybe it has been realized. So now it has started. Do we need to have a cabinet composition in the legal field to maximize the realization of President Prabowo's commitment

in the TIPIKOR split? If it's a competition, it's just a parody. Because it's been a long time. But actually, it's not about election itself, but the circulation. Because for me, whether it's an election or not, if it's not injected with power by the president, it doesn't mean that...

Now, we need the power from the president. If the president says, do this, do that, don't look at the balloon, I think the election can be done. Or just now, it's told to do that. If not, then it's election can be held. Or we can just do it now. If not, we can ask them to step back. If they are not brave enough.

The result is that it is useless to harmonize the relationship between the Agung and Polri prisons. What is the recipe that you can offer? The president can call both of them are both new officials, and your job is to strengthen each other, to be cohesive. You are like this, you are like that, just keep going smoothly. Why? You are both government officials.

Why can't it be like that? What is actually being fought for? What is being fought for? I don't know what they are fighting for. There is an analysis that says, this kind of situation is just a coincidence because of the favoritism of President Prabowo towards certain institutions.

Maybe. Favoritism means Mr. Prabowo to a certain institution. Compared to other institutions? Maybe. For example, TNI, the security of the police.

Maybe it is a portrait of the Naval Corporate System.

Maybe. It's possible. Although I think it's against the rules, but the president has done it because he wants to break the ice. It's possible. The president knows the president's rights. I think it's not right. But I see that the Nagong authorities feel more brave to take action. And it is expected because they can get the vaccine from President. Yes, in my opinion, if Mr. Prabowo, the press that allows it, that's the vitamin for the Nagong authorities to economy more active. That's the hope.

We will see. I was watching your podcast about the masterclass. But there was a little bit of a bad news. You made a masterclass, now, opening up the junk of the past. Is it true, sir? If there is such a assumption. Wrong. Because what I opened in the podcast was already published,

but many new generations don't know. Try if you're a critic, which one is new? From my masterclass, the new is new now? All of them have been released before. And that's why each item is attached with the news, right? This is the news of the release of the fish date that has been explained. There is a new one, not the old one.

This is old, but people have to remember that this is dangerous. This is what we used to work on.

Because I'm sure if you ask, People have to remember that this was dangerous. This is what we used to do.

Because I'm sure if you ask me, Mr. Arief, I'll try to show you where I open as a secret. There's no one to find it. Because what I explained is what was in the news in the newspaper, but people don't know. People are tired of this. That the models of evil are like this.

That's it. Professor Mahfud M.D.

Doctor, Academician, Ex-Minister, and so on, including a great teacher at the University of Islam Indonesia. Thank you for coming. Thank you, Mas Irja. I always follow you in Mandiloh. Good. Good.

Thank you, Sir.