MAHFUD MD: PURBAYA TERUSLAH MENGGEBRAK

Mrs. Sirimulyane once met me when the case was filed. She said, Mrs. there's this case, I said, we should continue it. Sir, I don't agree if my fruit child is being punished. Oh really?

Yes, I don't agree, because he's a victim, sir. A victim of another institution. Now, if people like Mr. Purbaya, what is it called, is not blocked that other powers can't stop it. But if it's just the minister, it's possible. But if it's in a crowd in the Cabinet,

or some ministers or even higher officials, it's difficult. Mr. Dirjen did this here. I'm the one who helped. He said that. Now he's in jail because he's dismantled the case.

After I dismantled the case, there were people who said, this, this, this, this. Two regional leaders appeared. Both of them are in jail now. Sir, I did it. I'm in that letter.

But, sir, it's already common and protected. This is a battle for the law enforcement. Why can't this kind of case be solved? Why do you think Webster can't be arrested? Unless there's something big.

Well, that's it, sir.

Behind the back of the law enforcement, there may be something big. You're blocking the enforcement of law. That's not allowed. That's a crime. People block the enforcement of law. That's not allowed. That's your own crime. People block the enforcement of law in one case, then they are considered involved.

So that if this is not expected, in my opinion it will be strange legally.

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Hello, how are you, everyone? We meet again on the Terus Terang podcast, where I will talk about various issues openly and without any hidden agenda. I continue to watch the various developments that have taken place in the political, legal, and government world that have received a lot of attention from the public. There were also many requests that came to me to discuss a topic,

from meetings with journalists, academicians, civil society, and also to my social media accounts. From all these events, we will discuss some issues that I think are important so that we can see it more clearly and we can think together to find a solution for the good of our nation. Let's start. Please, what do you want to ask, Mr. Rizal?

Yes, Pak Mahfud, I want to start our episode this week with a number of viral videos or information on social media. Both your video and the statement of Minister of Finance, Prabaya, in an open television interview. He said something like this, I just found out that the former employees of Pajak and Biayat Cukai were protected. This is what Prabaya explained about the meeting with Jaksa Agung

about how cases of harassment, theft, and all kinds of things if it happens in the court of law by the judge and the judge. I want to ask you, Mr. Mahfud, because after the statement of Mr. Purbaya, it immediately went viral on social media. The statement of Mr. Mahfud in this forum on October 7th

was directly related to the statement of Mr. Purbaya last week. That there is protection in the court department for the tax and interest department. Now, this is important for you to give an explanation on the legal consequences and of course how you see the efforts of Minister of Finance Purbaya also in the effort to eradicate corruption and legalization. Now I want to start by showing to Mr. Mahfud and also to the viewers

to remember Mr. Mahfud when I interviewed him here, when I asked you on October 7th, about the case of the money laundering of Rp349 trillion. Here it is, sir.

Mrs. Anne is too protective of her children. Because in the cases that I handled, I spoke directly to her, who was suspected to the people involved, and they said, this has to be moved first.

But it was not done.

Why?

I don't know. It was a protective measure. Then one day, we said, this is the problem. In the list of the election, there is an important official here.

But the head of the government said, you don't have to come again tomorrow. You an important official here. But, Mrs. Sirimulyani said, you don't have to come again tomorrow. You have his name here. But, he still came. And he controlled the conversation from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So, there is a reason for being protective?

As far as I know, Mrs. Sirimulyani didn't want her son to be punished. Her son was punished I don't want my son to be punished. I don't want my son to be punished because this is according to the confession of the people who came to me, to the officials. I have been directed by Bu Sirimulyani to start this point immediately.

Okay. So, the officials of the Solon 1?

Yes, the Solon 1. The Solon 1 is the most important. Yes, yes, yes. I guess in Balkara. We have been directed by don't repeat this. You used to have a problem. From this moment, I became the minister, don't repeat this again. Buwane asked him.

He reported to me that we have been punished, we have changed, on behalf of Buwane's government.

That's why, in my opinion,

Buwane, because he felt,

maybe he felt that people had been punished, then when he was told that she was involved, she didn't take any action. Yes, Pak Fud. This is a trend, Pak. It's a trend in Medsos a few days after this broadcast, but it became viral again when Pak Purbaya spoke in a television interview that I mentioned earlier.

He was surprised that the officers of Pajak and Biajuk if there is a legal problem, it is protected. Well, I asked permission to the editor-in-chief of CNN Indonesia to broadcast this. Mrs. Titin Rosmansari and she gave permission for us to broadcast.

So let's see.

I don't have any other place. If it's a wrong place, if there's something wrong, the law is over. Apparently, why all this time? I just found out. I met with a great man. I don't know if it's a secret or not. He asked me, he asked me, Sir,

what if the tax collector or the tax officer is involved in a legal matter? What is it? Stealing, stealing, all kinds of things. Can I not be punished? I was confused. What is that? Being bullied, being bullied, stealing, all that.

Can it be not punished? I am confused, what punishment? Can it be not punished? Just punish them, so that they are not wrong. Everything is the same. In the eyes of the law, everything is the same.

It seems that before, it was protected. So, if there is something like that, there will be an intervention from above so that it won't be disturbed, because it will disturb the stability of national income. That's what creates, not a moral hazard, but an incentive to commit a sin. That's why it's back again.

We're confused about what's going on. It turns out there's a treatment like that. Not like that in the future. That's the duty of a tax payer.

There are many good people.

The good people don't have to be afraid.

The bad people can be afraid now.

The bad people can be afraid now.

Because I won't protect them.

But if they're not wrong, if they're disturbing people, I'm afraid of Mereng. Because I won't protect her.

But if she's not at fault, if she's bothering people, I'll protect her. There's no problem. But if she steals, takes money, and asks for protection,

there's no such thing. Yes, Mr. Mahfud. This is a blow, sir. An important statement from an important official, the Minister of Finance. The statement is very hard and open.

What is the meaning of this open statement

and what are the consequences in your opinion? Well, for me, it confirms what I said before. Because I said, if I'm not mistaken, it is related to thea welcomed the new minister, I said that because hopefully there will be a more firm action from the new minister towards the fruit children

because Mrs. Sri Mulyani is too protective, she doesn't want the cases in her office to it was made public and became a subject of discussion because of corruption and so on. That's what I said before. There was even a time when I was dismissling the cash laundering case, the case of Rp3.49 trillion, from so many registrations,

it was also included in the tax protection. There was a case that was then kind of OTT by the Tax Protection in Bandara. It was already announced. The mistakes, the things that were mentioned, the initials of the perpetrators,

the Ministry of Finance was shocked. It turns out that until now, the news is already clear. Why? Because at that time, there were lobbyists from the Ministry of Finance, from the Ministry of Finance,

and it could be the Ministry of Finance, so that it was not continued. How do I know? Because it was also me. The lobbyist was a DPR person, an important person in the DPR. Sir, please, Mr. Jaksa Agung will hear if you say it."

The DPR people were accusing you?

Yes, the DPR people were accusing me. It was already announced, but after that, they said it was moved and so on. Then I asked why. The Ministry of Finance was not pleased. I met there, to the Bundar Building. Someone told me that the parking lot was not far from the front,

and we went straight up. We met on the special road. So, it is not clear now. In other experiences, as I said, there are people who are suspected of doing a lot of money laundering, in the interest, in the tax, and so on.

This is the person, from 300 letters that were delivered, this is his name, this one. It's related here, here, here. If you want to solve this, this is to be deactivated first, to be eliminated first.

If necessary, stop need to stop it permanently. But, in one meeting, Mrs. Sirungulyani just told the people, Hey, your name is here. If you have a meeting about this, you don't need to come here anymore. Even though she's not wrong, but it's on the list.

But it's on the list of time-wasting. The time-wasting list is an aggregate of money Pembeli, I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. I'm not sure if it's true. The first column was stopped by the minister, who made the press president, who made the SKP president, but the proposal must have come from the minister.

So, there is no difficulty in the bureaucracy at all, actually, if you stop it. Well, that's what I feel, what I see from Mrs. Sirumulyani. It turns out that Mr. Purbaya has heard directly from Kejaksan Agung. From Jaksa Agung, sir. From Jaksa Agung, Pak? Not from all of Kejaksan Agung's friends? Jaksa Agung, the number one person in Kejaksan Agung.

Yes, because he was also from Kejaksan Agung. For Pak Jaksa Agung, if there is anything, there are things like this, usually he will send his dirgen to me, Pak, this is what happened, the way you behave. Some people ask for a lighter sentence, some people ask for something else. What does it mean?

If someone is disturbing you, you should tell them so that they won't disturb you. I told you before, don't disturb the law enforcement. Don't vote for a person with one star

to influence the case, because I have a person with two stars in my office. If you vote for a person with you decide to fire two people, I have three people, I said. Isn't that right? Because usually, there are a lot of decisions to influence.

That's what happens. If you want to organize, not only in the Ministry of Finance, all institutions must push their leaders to take action. So, the same case can happen in other ministries, not just in the Ministry of National Defense? Yes, it can.

Like I said, if you have one star, I have two stars, that can face him. If it's for the judge or the judge, I have three stars, I said. If it's four stars, then it's the president who can handle it. Mr. Mahfud, from the examples you mentioned earlier, you as a person who is concerned about the eradication of corruption and when it becomes a mainstay, what do you do? By looking at if it stops here in the process, it means there is another power that I can't overcome. It means it's higher than me.

If it's with the minister, it must be a big deal. If it's with the minister, Mrs. Sirimuliani met me once. When the case was, she said, there is this case, I said, it should be continued. Sir, I don't agree if my fruit seller is being punished. I said, yes, I don't agree.

Because he is a victim, a victim of another institution. I have built this person, he has become good, but he was violated by another institution. How can he be a victim or punished? That's the case. The case in Bandara.

I even talked to him about the case in Bandara. So, you mean that there are many cases in other places too? Yes, there are. If people like Pak Purbaya are not blocked by other powers, if only on the side, with the minister, it's possible.

But if they are surrounded by people in the cabinet or some ministers or even higher people, it's difficult. You have to give space to Pak Prabaya to continue. I know that Sri Mulyani has a good intention. Because he once told me... And Pak Mahfud is friends with Bu Hani.

Yes, I have talked to him. He talked a lot about how he wanted to be a minister, but he refused, then he offered, and finally he had to accept it. And so on. One of the interesting stories from Siri Mauliani is, Pak Mahfud, I don't know, the Ministry of Finance was damaged,

there were many diseases back then. But after I became a minister, I called one person who wanted to be an official. This is the finance minister who delivered the command to Komar Ruka? The minister to me. I know one thing. You were involved in this case.

You were involved in this case. You were involved in this case. Then I challenged you to be a good person.

We went through the past.

You want to be a good person. That's what was confirmed by the fruit of that. I have asked Diano and Buwani to start doing better. We have changed and we have become more independent. So, the conclusion is that what was done yesterday was missed. Even though the institution is not getting better, the tax is still higher.

The evil of taxation and unemployment continues to grow. So, we have are still more taxes. The crime of taxation and tax havens continue to grow. I even argued in front of the DPR, argued in public, which actually doesn't need to be done if you want to understand each other.

So, the story is reversed.

We see it in front of the DPR. Until the DPR, many backed me up. I was criticized by the DPR. the Hoax, because the 349 trillion was not there. The Minister of Finance in the 11th Commission stated that it was only this much, not even half. The data was disputed in the 3rd Commission. The data was disputed.

The data was the same as mine look at the data in the third committee. They said, the data is the same. I was right, but I said, this letter has 300, but it includes all the ministries of finance. So many to the KPK, the letter, so many to the Ministry of Finance, so many to the Ministry of Finance. This is what was delivered to me, only what was conveyed to the Ministry of Finance by the PPATK. While the other three are a lot, right? One package in the Ministry of Finance, I said. Finally, it was clear at that time about the finance review.

Well, this is true, it happened. There are those who have been solved in the process of solving, the big ones, many of them have not been completed. Now, I am the one who formed the team. I was the one who formed the team. So that it could be open.

But the DPR had already been in the limelight.

So, you told them, Pak Foon, you are the head of the committee.

I told them, don't be a fanatic. Just be a fanatic. Min Kopolu Kamaja, as the head of the TPPU, The National Commission on Taxation of Funds and Monetary Waste conducted an investigation, formed a team, and then reported to us when it was done. We reported it periodically.

That's how it went.

I want to go back to the video, sir. I saw the statement of Minister Pubayang that was so open and candid, even though he was in doubt.

Is this a secret? But it's okay, right? So, the nature of nature is still visible. That's why it's important for us to discuss. It means, not only do we see the officials, but as an institution of law enforcement, it turns out like that, Pak.

As a law person, what does Pak Mahfud see? What is this picture? That the issues that Pak Mahfud said are corruption, tax and tax, it turns out that the explanation is inside. In a nutshell, it is protected by a ... There are those who are defending. Not all of them.

There are many who are exposed. But there are also many who have solved it that way. That's how it works. Maybe the evidence in this a part of the case. But, the minister is just like that. The minister is using this person to ask for a fair trial.

Maybe that's the case. But, for me, I don't think that's the way to enforce the law. The law is the law. That's why people who are officials in the law enforcement should be people who are law enforcement officers should be people who are brave, who understand the law and its consequences, and who are not influenced by political power, whether it's the higher-ups,

or the people on the side. Sometimes, like I said before, the police often pressurize the DPRK about the trials. So, what is being discussed there,

will be discussed in the media, tomorrow, it will be over in the DPR. Because it was finished outside the court, it was over. There, there was a blink of an eye, as I said before, hopefully in the era of Mr. Prabowo, there will be no more. It has already started, right, Mr. Purbaya?

Mr. Purbaya said this, sir. I'll put it in the sentence. When a case arises, there will be an intervention from above so that it is not disturbed because it will disturb the stability of national income. That's what is often said.

That's what is often said. Well, yes, it used to be.

Yes, the stability. But the formal reason is that. But, well, all kinds of reasons can't be judged. Well, it's lead to other issues. In one case, the case was made and the court was silent. Then another case came up. Yesterday, it was not possible.

Yesterday, it was not possible. In the end, there was no enforcement of the law. If you use the excuse of the right to file a case, to put aside for better interest, does it fit into this category? It doesn't fit. So, there are only two cases, one is deponering, and the other is siponering.

Deponering is putting aside a case to continue a matter because of public interest. For example, if there is a case that is continued, there will be mass riots. For example, there will be a war between Indonesia and Japan. For example, there is a Pujapahat Singh here, a prisoner. Then, they ask to be released, and then we give up, because it is dangerous.

Maybe it will cause tension between the two countries, maybe it will cause a riot in one place. It can be done for the sake of public interest. It can be done. The name is Diponeering. Then there is Diponeering.

The case is closed for legal reasons. Just like Mr. Harto. It was not Diponeering, Mr. Harto. It was Poneering. What does it mean? Mr. Harto's case was closed for legal reasons because Mr. Harto could no longer be tried.

His memory was weak and he was sick. According to the explanation of the experts, he will not be able to ask for accountability at that time. That's Poniring. Well, this one, there is no Poniring.

Even though it's on behalf of the National Assembly.

The person who forbids, the person who influences, should be arrested too. It should be like that, right? You are blocking the enforcement of law. That's not allowed. That's a crime. People block the enforcement of the law in one case,

then they are considered involved in doing the case.

If we look at the previous period, maybe it's not in the current context.

It's a bit difficult. It's not about not being difficult. The current situation, if it can be tackled in can fix it now, it's good. If it's not, we need to have our own forum. Our own forum to solve it. Because the problem is complicated.

It can't be solved easily. But as an institution, as a legal institution, the judiciary is not responding. The judiciary should be responding, giving a statement on the statement of the Minister of Finance.

If the judiciary is not opposing, it means it's true. That's it.

Using that logic.

Using that logic. And indeed, it can't be closed in corruption. The money laundering case, when it was controversial, finally the names started to be leaked, Mr. Rizal knew about it. They came to my office to report it. The perpetrators.

They even said, Mr. Dirjen did this, I helped him. Yes, he said that. Now he is in prison because he revealed the case I revealed. Then, someone said, this, this, and this. Two regional leaders appeared. Both of them are in jail now.

I did it, I was in that letter. But, it was already common and protected. That's it. In the Ministry of Finance. Therefore, I said, based on the my reports and research on legal development, the area of corruption in Indonesia is tax, tax, land, agriculture, right?

Then there's also the farm and the sea, and so on. But those are places where the corruption is extraordinary. Not a small corruption. If Kemdikbut, maybe there is. Kemendik, Kemenak, not a small amount of corruption. If it's a small amount, there might be some corruption. But it's not that big. It's a project that is not inherited from time to time,

from people to people. What you said about the Ministry of Finance is a bit off. What about the tax?

Maybe you know about it Pak? Pak Fud mungkin tau juga laporan-laporan.

Banyak. Yang sekarang, yang sekarang sudah di, kalo yang biar cukai kan sudah tau ya, kepabeanan kan sudah banyak tuh yang masuk penjara. Ada misalnya, emas masuk sekian, ditulis being processed, he's being processed and now he's in jail, it means that not everything is pacified by the authorities. There are also some that are being processed. For example, I remember

one of the Minister of Finance, he's the former head of the State, Mr. Isharah Matarwaksa. He's still being processed by the authorities. He's not being protected by the minister. process. there are some who can survive. That's it. That's it. It must be like that.

And it can survive.

But it must be supported, right? It's the same as the case of Sambo and so on. If we don't back up from the side, it's heavy. Not as easy as that. How does Mr. Purbaya, so that the way he opens and does the efforts now can work, Mr. Purbaya, in order to open and do the current hard work, can it work, Pak Pak Put?

Especially when it is supported by the environment and the bureaucracy that supports it, so that it is not a hassle. Pak Put is being pushed left and right in the DPR. I can't imagine how Mr. Purbaya will face this. No, I think it's like this. The DPR is now under the control of Mr. Prabowo.

Mr. Prabowo is strong in the DPR. Meanwhile, I see Mr. Purbaya is also backed up by the President. So, it's up to him to be brave or not. The President has backed him up. The President said that he is Mr. Purbaya will take action to clean up corruption in the Ministry of Finance.

You mentioned that you were backed by the President. We have a video of you, Mr. Afon. When Mr. Purbaya said that all of what I did was backed by the President. I was backed by the President. Let's watch this. If Mr. Prabowo is clear, if there is a play, he will be arrested, he said. I'm still smooth, you know. If he's still tied up, he'll be in jail. I'm still smooth, we hit, we hit, just like that. He's not tough.

So, the president's position is. So, this is the affirmation, don't play around with Pak Purbaya because he is backed by the president.

If Pak Purbaya wants, he is backed by the president.

In the old days, Pak Afud was not backed by the president?

Yes, he was backed too. But on the other hand, no. In the DPR, I faced it. As a manpower backed, but other institutions were left alone. to the oligarchy and so on, this is the case. Well, Mr. Prabowo, it seems that he is not backed up totally, he is in charge of the DPR. Then, Mr. Purbayan, I am also backed up by the President. If you are not backed up by the President,

you can't solve big cases. You can be cut off in the middle of the road if your president, you can't stop there.

You can't let a sub are the president. You can't stop there.

You can't let a low-ranking person to violate the law because the responsibility is on the president. But Mr. Purbaya's situation is good now. The president's back-up is given openly and stated openly by Mr. Purbaya himself. It's the same.

So, if Mr. Purbaya said a few days ago, I am now working with Kejaksaan to dismantle the mafia in Pajak and Becukai, you can hope that it will happen, right?

Because the environment makes it possible. Kejaksaan should also be strong, right? For example, if it is not intervened by the superiors, not intervened by politicians, don't play around with clean up the mess. Because there are many cases like that.

Things are sold and bought in the police station. We don't have to mention who it is. We just have to read the list of things and people from the police station who are in jail. Because of those cases.

It's the same with the tax. You asked earlier, how to tax corruption. It's the same with the tax. You asked me earlier, how do you get rid of the tax? It's corruption. It's easy. You say,

I'm a tax officer, I have to pay the tax, with a certain amount of money. You ask me, how much is the tax? I say,

the tax is 10 billion. Can you reduce it? Yes, I can. How much is the tax? So, 6, but 4 divided by 2. People only asked for restitution, that's a lot. The tax people, that's right. Then, the one who asked for tax is the tax people.

I told you, the people who have been in jail. I won't tell you. They asked you to you to me. You can send me, and then you can ask for a bill to the consultant's office. The consultant's office is me. You can ask for the bill there. You can split the money. That's how it is in the prison.

That's how it is, Pak Purbaya. If it's a business, the goods come in from outside, the cost should be this much, and the quantity or quality should be this much. So it becomes very small, and the surplus is divided into two.

Then you'll know, when it goes inside, and it becomes a finished product, for example, gold, the price is different. If it was this much, If you go in and become a regular employee, for example, you are a senior, why is it different? Why did you go in so many times, and when you become a senior, you become so many times, when you become a regular employee? That's the knowledge that I have now. When I want to stop being a minister, there is a case that has been analyzed by Lintas.

By Lintas Ahli, under the coordination of the PPATK. There are from the police, the police, the academicians, former officials such as Yunus, there is Yusuf, like Yusuf Yunus Hussein, there is Faisal Basri. There was a conclusion at that time.

There is a gap of that time. There was a clear difference in money, as much as Rp 189 trillion with 3.5 tons of gold. Well, when I wanted to stop as a minister, but it was announced at that time. It was agreed to be dismissed. Who was dismissed? The Ministry of Finance. According to the law, the Minister and the Secretary were dismissed. They were dismissed.

They were not dismissed by the Minister of Finance, nor by the Minister of Finance. Then, when the request was made, the application and the request were then delivered to the Ministry of Justice, for example. Well, until now, there is no news. Even though at that time, it was already checked by the team.

This is probably part of the protection effort.

Part of it, in a way. So, Pak Purbaya, if you have time, please open the financial analysis report. At that time, we will open the case. I know that the Ministry of Finance has a lot of work to do. I can't be dictated by outsiders.

I just give an insight that those are the patterns that happen. Okay. Okay, Pak Fud. So, we move on.

So, in that case, we hope that what was said by Mr. Prabu Baesar Terbuka will end a long period that can be solved with protection. Hopefully. In the future, it can be more firm and more fair in the law enforcement. Okay, Mahfud. We will continue now. This is also related to the legal field, but a little bit political. Nowadays, it's getting more and more crowded.

You are very concerned with online cases. In our podcast, we have mentioned about it several times. And coincidentally, one of the figures who according to you, Mahfud, should be immediately established his status, is the ex-manager of Kominfo, Budi Ari.

He appeared on Medsos every day. Budi Ari, when he was hoping, like Mr. Mahfud said, he is no longer a minister, so he can be processed, he was even present at the third Congress of Projo, and was elected again as the head of Projo, with various policy changes being made.

What is Mr. Mahfud? Looking at the efforts like this, what is it? Law issues but also related to politics, is this part of the effort to protect, for example, or how?

Well, maybe. Looking for protection, or making a new bargaining position. I'm not too interested in following the Projo issue, but last night I saw the podcast of Sahal and Abiy Armando. And one more, the former Projo.

Indeed, there is a lot of analysis. First, it is an ethical story. It is a betrayal to Mr. Jokowi, who has given everything to him. He gave the ministerial position to the president. If it wasn't for Mr. Jokowi, it would not have been possible. But now, he just wants to get a new position,

then he took Jokowiokowi dari Projo. Ini Projo ini bukan Projokowi. Ini Prorakyat. Karena Projo itu artinya negri katanya.

Video 2018 ke 2025 muncul.

Dan muncul bahwa Projo itu Jokowi. Tidak mungkin nama Projo kalau bukan Jokowi. Itu kata dia sendiri. Jadi Budiari diad fight with Budi Ari. That's why people said that it was an extraordinary ethical violation. According to the discussion.

Then, the second possibility, he was looking for protection. To be safe. He was looking for a grip. He was looking for the roots. In a place to hold on to, a place to find the roots. In the old days, we would find the roots of everything.

The roots of power.

Yes, we would look for that. Because, again, he had a case. What was the case? The case of Judea Online. It was the same as what I said, in the end, Matin Andrew was called,

in my preaching, that he was the one who ordered this to be lifted, even though it was not a matter of fact, without the permission of the Patesh, and then he ordered the Dirjad to be lifted, and that was brought to the court.

So that if this is not expected, in my opinion, it will be strange legally. Then he always sacrificed a small person, the police, and then they always sacrifice the children. Even though they are the brains behind all of this, according to the interpretation of the Jaksa Dakwaan. The Jaksa Dakwaan, which may not have been revealed by the police, but was revealed by the Jaksa Dakwaan.

Because the Jaksa then made their own interpretation of what the police said, and then the statement is made public. Even though the police may mention it in the investigation news, but it is not mentioned who the suspects are. But it is mentioned as such, and the consequences of the law must be pursued. It must be pursued. If it is not, then what is the point of the law?

If it is not, for example, in a moment he soon become a member of Gerindra Budi Arinya.

That's another matter. That's another matter. That's Gerindra's matter. That's it, Mas. That's how it should be. And the president at the same as the Congress event.

What is it called? Projo. Yes, of course, Mr. President is not being held back. I think no matter how strong the President is, there are still people who want to hold back, want to influence, so we have to set tactical steps in this. Let's just see. So far far from the statements, Prabowo has shown a strong commitment to eradicate corruption in a serious way,

but starting with the extraordinary but can be done earlier. And he has been helped by a brave man named Purbaya. Whatever Purbaya's motive is, it doesn't matter to me. There are already many people who are analysing. There are many people who are sick, angry, and angry. Some people say, why is this for social and political reasons?

It's okay for me. What matters is that democracy is running and the country is not stagnant. For example, the financial crisis has been reported continuously for years. There must be a change. Well, Purbaya is a change. If the change is not settled, there must be another change.

Democracy is like that. Democracy is to prevent the circulation of leadership so that the content is always good in the circulation. It's okay. We support Purbaya. Until now, he is still very good. I think he is the most interesting for the community. The proof is also the survey, which is also the result of the old politicians.

We'll see what the result is like. I'll continue, Pak Fud. Still about Mr. Jokowi's willingness. If we talk about Budi Hari, this is about Sylvester Matutina, it's not over yet. People are getting more and more angry. People say, he must not be arrested, not executed, and should be immediately put in a search warrant of the DPO.

What do you think, Mr. Mahfud?

Okay, before I answer that, because the defenders of Matutina, Sylvester Matutina, there are still many who dream that Matutina can't be punished because of the Daluarsa.

Yes, that's right. Some of the interviewees said that.

There was a statement in verse 84, verse 3, that said that the Daluarsa should not be smaller than the law. Then it was said, Matutina was sentenced to 1.5 years, and this one is already 6 years. Why should it be sentenced to less? That's a stupid statement. It can't be less, but it can be bigger.

In fact, the law regulates the law of the lawful one court is bigger than the law and from the declaration. This is the determination. It is in Article 78, paragraph 2 of the Constitution. If it is simplified, it is like this. The court, to demand someone, if the threat of punishment is above three years, then the sentence is twelve years.

This is clear. In Article 78, verse 2. Now, Sylvester was sentenced because he violated Article 311. The threat of punishment is four years. It means twelve years, right? Since the incception of the government. The Fonis MA, number 287, in 2019,

was already in the government on May 20, 2019. That means, since May 20, it has to be executed until there is a court order. But the court order has changed. If earlier it was a request order, now it is a order of the execution. There is another certainty.

In verse 84 of 2 KUHP, it is said that the order of the execution is the order of the demand. Added to it by 3. The demand is the 4-year-old's claim, so the order is 12, now third. His demand is to give four years, which means the Daluarsa is 12 years, now add a third.

So, the Daluarsa Sylvester is 12 plus a third of 12 which means 16 years. Because the MKI fund expires on 20 May 2019, then the Daluarsa execution

for Sylvester is 20 May 2035.

2035?

Yes.

It's still 10 years from now. I think it's better to give up one and a half months than to hide for 10 years. There is no legal way to get rid of it. The PKK does not get rid of the execution. Once you ask the P, you get caught. Because in the PK, according to all the rules of the law, you have to be there yourself.

If you don't come yourself, you're fired. Yesterday, you were fired twice. You want PK, right? You're not there, you're fired. You're considered not to ask. Tomorrow, you said you want to ask again, it's not going to be asked for. Tomorrow, they say they want to ask for it again, right? Ask for it. The authorities must know about this. Yes. The authorities must know.

Yes, that's why my question earlier was,

what can we expect from the authorities by leaving it like this?

That's why, now, talking about Sylvester, it's clear that he's a person in a cage. because there was no news of the trial being completed. The execution was completed. This means that the witness was witnessed by the local court chief who had handed over the case to the judge. It never happened and never went to court. That's why he is now wanted.

The problem now is that this is a battle for the protection of the nation. Why can't we have a case like this? We used to chase

Joko Candra, who had been running for years. Maria Pauline Lumowa. Iya, Pauline Lumowa. Maria Pauline. Iya, dikejar dan ditangkap.

Kita tangkap di Serbia. Lari 18 tahun bisa kok kita nangkap. Alvin Lim dulu kan?

Iya.

Itu berkeliaran di depan kita. Saya nggak tahu kalau dia terpidana waktu itu. Si Alvin Lim. Iya, iya. He was convicted at that time. Alvin Lieb. Suddenly, he made a podcast on YouTube. He challenged Mr. Kapor. Hey, Mr. Polri, come face me in your office.

They are all corrupt. I know, I have the evidence. I was punished. Then there was another podcast for the Kejaksanagong. Hey, Kejaksanagong, you are a thief there. As a minister, I'm not comfortable.

Maybe there are thieves in Polri. Maybe there are thieves in Kejaksana Gung. I called them. The leaders of Kejaksana and the Muli. Yes, the leaders of Kejaksana and the Muli. How come there are people like this,

who dare to challenge like that, on YouTube, and every day they appear. Why aren't they served to discuss? Or is it not served for discussion? Or, it disturbs the order. You can argue if it is not right.

Then, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, they said, sir, this person is only to avoid execution. Why? I said, he has been executed, but always looking for reasons to be executed. He is abroad,

he is sick, challenged, and so on. I He was abroad, he was sick, he was challenged. I said, if that's the case, arrest him now. Take him at any cost. I ordered that.

I held it.

Arrested.

Immediately arrested.

Yes, it could be like that. Especially Sylvester. Why did I arrest Sylvester? I can't arrest him.

Like this.

Unless there's something big. In Bali or in the back of the Kejaksanagung, there may be something big. So, if it's like this, the Kejaksanagung is great. Nangani Pertamina, Nangani, with full courage, bold. Riza Khalid, still as a suspect. Riza Khalid, and who is it, Surya Dharmadi.

Dharmadi, with Sikyantri Nelonjarov, Jaksa, Jaksa Hakim, he was arrested. He was arrested, but Silvester could not do anything. It means there is something. First, he had the authority to do that so that he would not be ashamed of the big things he had done,

but he was mocked by the small things. Second, the security forces have a team to catch the buronans. Well, actually, it can be used. If you go abroad, you can use it as a DPO. I haven't heard of it. Is there a government that registers people's search? Or is it just the police? If you know the person who is in charge, please help us.

It's up to us. The government should be able to do it. You don't have to wait for the Agung police. It's enough. The highest level of the police. If the government catches it, it's possible, unless there's a problem behind it.

But this is a nuisance for our legal world. It's a nuisance, isn't it? It's a nuisance. How can it be played by people like that? With the criminal act that is not serious, but it has already entered into a crime,

not a violation. Article 3.11 is a crime. If it's a violation, it's a bit light, but it's is a crime. If it's a violation, it's a bit light, but it's already a crime. According to the article itself, who did this crime in article 3.11.

It means that this is not a corruptor, not a corruption case that many have been swapped. This is just a case of insult. We hope so. I will continue. This is a long story, but it's still a public issue.

People remember when 2-3 days ago, Mr. Saididu and his friends released a video. In his statement, he just came to the area of Pagar Laut,

which was once crowded, and Mr. Mahfud also spoke a lot about it. And he watched, according to the Pagar Laut area, which was once crowded, and Mr. Mahfud also talked a lot about it. And according to the video of Mr. Said Hidu and his colleagues, they saw that the Pagar Laut did not stop. What was asked by the president to stop, until now it is still built by digging.

So, there is an effort to let this happen. Even according to Mr. Said Hidu, this did not follow the President's instructions.

If that's true, what do you think will happen in this case?

Well, maybe there will be a big collusion among the oligarchs and officials at the middle level to the bottom. Maybe. Because the President's instructions are clear. And the Minister of Trade, Investment and Public Works has clearly issued a decree to cancel more than 260 certificates. Now, it is said that it has been ordered again to be 3 meters from the coast, 3 meters from the coast, so that it will reach there too. Now, for that reason, the KKP must take action.

KKP?

KKP. Must come to the location to make sure. Yes, of course. Then the second one is the Navy. The sovereignty in the sea is the Navy. Bokan was also the Navy. Then the BPN.

We must meet immediately to provide a comprehensive report to the public. In my opinion, the meeting and discussion must be open to it, so that they can dare to do it. That's what makes people afraid to open up to God, because it's too tight, closed, and limited. It's not good, right? If I had opened up to the Quran first, then I would have talked to the people inside.

I wouldn't have opened up to the Quran first, if it was a big case. I would have opened up first, talked to the media, then we would have talked to the media, then we go inside, it's tougher because we have talked to the media and the public, it seems to support it. That's it.

So the government has to respond to this, right?

It has to come to the location, make sure, like in the army. It's the government's job. What is the government's job? To protect the entire nation and all the blood of Indonesia. It means protecting humanity and protecting nature. Right? and protect the nature. So, the territory, demography, geography, and the whole nature

must be protected by the state. The government can include the governor and the regents, sir. Yes, the governor and the regents, the local regents, the local BPN, the Navy, the KKP, and so on. Just look at it. Later, it might be like this, right? The certificate of 260 something has been canceled, right? If this continues to happen,

later 260 will be considered as land, considered as this sea. Even though it was here, which has been marked.

Exactly.

It can happen later.

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Okay, Pak Fud. Those are some cases of law that still happen and are asked by the public and of course also written by the media. One of them that finally gives us an idea is the international assessment, Pak Fud. In October this year, World Justice Project released the law enforcement index. And Pak Mahfud's institution, I remember, last year, he even invited the researchers

to come here to discuss in front of the experts. Exactly, from the US. In front of the experts and the academics. The result of this year, we are down again. If we look at Indonesia's law country from an international perspective, the foreign institution, we are down the number of cases is decreasing.

This is the graph. The index of the Indonesian law. In 2025, right? Yes, in 2025.

The rule of law index for Indonesia is decreasing. So, it was able to stay in the rank of 2023, and in 2004, it went down again, even though it still had a 53 score. Now, the score has gone down, and the rank has gone down as well, sir. In 2025, from 53 to 52, both score and rank. This again illustrates that there is still a huge legal issue, sir, that we are facing,

so that the international sees us as a legal country. What do you think?

And I think this portrait is true. Because we have been since the end of 2004, since Mr. Prabowo's training, until now, there are still many issues of law that are facing obstacles. There are still many collusion issues, there are still many unclear cases, but the big ones have started, which we have been grateful for earlier. But this has become a general picture of our law enforcement. For the first year, the government, Mr. Prabowo, has generally declined,

and it must be accepted as a fact because this is an international world

which measures this with the same standard compared to other countries. Exactly, Sir. If we look at this graphic, the research results are there are three things that are variable. First, about the limitation of government power, Pak Mahfud, that is indicated that there is a weakness in the governance of government power. The second is basic rights, fundamental rights, sir. That is, civil liberties and all kinds. Then the third is criminal justice.

Well, according to Pak Mahfud, those three points are not maxim maximal in the current situation. There are problems. For example, the government's power which is starting to be sterile or a bit sterile or starting to be a bit controlled by the media. From the media, from the DPR, and all that. From the media and so on. There are some problems.

But it's okay, we learn from it. Then there's the issue of protection of human rights. There are still many problems. In the first year, we were still crowded, we were still revealing what we didn't succeed in, but the international world still judged us.

We just got here, we just got here. But our attention has started to show up. The failed ones are still being judged by the international community. They are still being judged. But our attention is already on improving. Hopefully, it can be improved. Third, the critical and criminal. The criminal justice will also have many problems, especially if it is related to the Tanur case, Richard Tanur, Robert Tanur, and the one here in Jakarta, the one that is corruption-based,

there are several tortures and so on. Then there are criminal acts that the continuation is still unclear, and so on. All of that is evaluated. It's okay. We have to learn because we are part of the international community.

And for President Prabowo, because it is related to one year of government, this needs to be paid attention to, right?

Oh yes, yes. This is an input to President Prabowo. We should just assume it like this. If Mr. Prabowo wasn't like that. Maybe it's worse. Fortunately, Pak Prabowo is there. That's how we should entertain ourselves. Fortunately, Pak Prabowo is not like that.

But not everyone is down. There are some who are up. There are two who are up, although it's not significant.

So, Pak, I think there are some that have risen, sir. That's about order and security.

Order and security. That's relative. And implementation of regulations too. Implementation of regulations. In various places, people have started. It's not true yet, but people are starting to be afraid. This is the rule. It's not true yet, but people are afraid. The rules are like this. Pak Prabowo said,

be careful, follow the rules, if not, I will beat you. I will not beat you. You are backed by the general, face me, follow the rules. That means the implementation of the regulations has started.

Security and surveillance is okay. There are cases that exploded in the end of August. I don't know what was covered by this study. But in general, our society is relatively, especially in villages, I often say that our security apparatus in villages is good. Because we have more than 75,000 villages in general,

it's safe. Let's say there is a case in a village in 357 days, in a year, it only happens in some villages, and it is more often often in the regions. It was also the work of the regional security apparatus, which I think is quite good.

I always say that the security apparatus in the police force is good in general, especially if you look at Indonesia as a whole. What is not good is that it the corruption and politics. The elite and the oligarchs. Those are the cases that can be answered. But, if we look at the general security and order, with 17,580 islands in Indonesia,

75,000 villages, and so on, it's relatively good. Especially if we go to Jogja or other areas, we can drink coffee until 1 AM, it's comfortable.

We can go home and drink coffee.

Yes, yes.

Okay, Pak Agung. That's enough. That's all for this week's edition. We will meet again next week. Keep making positive contributions. Never stop loving Indonesia. Let's fix the injustice and the mess in our government's management system for our country, for our country, let's fix it.

Let's fix the injustice and the mess in our government's management system for our country, for our country, let's fix it. Done.