'Ndrangheta con l’ex boss Luigi Bonaventura | Pulp Podcast #34

You don't grow up being afraid. I wasn't afraid at all. The only fear I had was that I didn't want to kill my father. If I were a stranger, I'm sorry to say, I would have killed him ten times at that time, as I thought at the time. But he was my father, so I couldn't do something like that.

I thank God every day that I didn't raise my hand.

Hello everyone and welcome to a new episode of Pulp Podcast. Pulp Podcast a friend of this podcast, Tommaso Ricciardelli, who is obviously specialized in episodes of this type. Are you ready for this new entry into the Palp family? We are! I'm honored!

We have to do an initiation rite. A very first question I would like to ask is precisely why the Calabrian mafia has so few collaborators of justice? First of all, to start we need a saint. We have to invent one of our own that doesn't cause various kinds of inquiries. Maybe something easier. We have the saint of work, though.

Well, it could be useful.

There are few regrets about the Drangata, because it's the only organization in the world that mainly conducts family events. So, as a consequence, deciding to dissociate and then collaborating with the justice system is a really terrible and difficult choice. Because from that moment on, you have to forget about having parents, friends, brothers, cousins. So, collaborating for a son of a mother of a slave is really something terrible. I am now 19 years old, and for the first three and a half years I only wanted to die every minute of my day. So that's one of the reasons, because there are a few collaborators.

Then when I started started it was really difficult

What year are we talking about?

I started the association in 2005 then I started a form of collaboration in 2006 and then I made the collaboration official in 2007 because to sign the first verbal I used more than a year I couldn't make the names of agreement, I had to work for over a year, I couldn't

make the names of the people, I couldn't put my signature. When I did it, as I said before, I went into a terrible depression.

I imagine that in addition to the fact that there are blood ties that lead to dissuade people from collaborating I also imagine the capillarity of a mafia that in the years has been very strict in its conduct in the sense that it leads to an extreme fear of retortions or that the state can't protect the collaboration

We don't grow up, we have... at God, a son of a mother from Angata who was headshotted by a soldier child, so he either goes crazy first or manages to live well with fear, so the difficulty in collaborating is not so much a choice of being afraid of dying, because this is the last thought. Thank God we are regulated by the moral law, so you lose your parents, you lose your family, so it's not a question of fear, it's a question of how you are structured inside.

Explain this to us better, then we go back to 2006, it's the very, very particular circumstance that happened to you, but what does it mean to be trained as a soldier child? What is this rite for male children of the Andrangheta?

When you are born, when you are your father's son, or in any case you come from a historical family, when you are born it is as if you had a form of citizenship. So you start with a promise, a promise that is a form, a degree, let's say, even if in Andranghata they are not called degrees, so you are a young man of honor, instead the femininity is destined to become a sister of humility, so you have this acceptance, then of course you also have to make, you have to contextualize the periods, right?

I was born in 1971, so we are talking about a period in Italy where there were at least 10 deaths per day, including Drang, Tacosanostra, Gamorra, Bierre and other situations. So, the use of weapons was quite widespread. I was born in a family where, when I was born, my grandfather, who was one of the most important bosses

in the world, Luigi Vrenna, or Zirro, I should have called myself Vrenna, but my grandfather...

Excuse me, your uncle's name?

No, my grandfather.

Your grandfather, excuse me.

His name was Luigi Vrenna, also known as Zirro, which would be a nickname. So after a year and a half that I was born, they kill my uncle, and then a faida explodes. At the time, faida meant the end of the war, after the elimination of the last male of one of the two families.

To exterminate an entire family.

Yes, it is a fairly archaic, medieval organization, so it works like this. And so I was raised on the use of hermits was a child, so I was already used to the use of a machine gun. It's true, the story of the dragon is true. They make you sleep with milk, blood and umber tea. I started shooting when I was very young, so I remember less the other times. I often suffered at the age of 10 because I hurt my thumb when I shot.

That's the biggest job for a son of a mother, to disappoint the family. Not being a soldier of the family, creating dishonor for the family.

So not feeling at the same level as others.

Exactly. Then the training started to be more intense so at the age of 13-14 years old we went to the isolated areas and we shot with different weapons to learn the techniques the techniques also based on what you had to do if you had to hurt the person, how to hurt him, what you had to use

or if you had to kill him

How did you see your father in that period?

A dragonfightereen sees her father as a hero. My heroes were my father, my grandfather, my uncle, Giovanni Bonaventura, who was another important legend of the Aurena Bonaventura family.

I guess no one would tell you the opposite, your father is...

You live in the myth, I think I think so, or even in the bubbles

You live in the myth, you feel honored by that family then you think a little about the time then it's a clash that you find also outside so people respect you, they respect you

a lot, they didn't consider us criminals they considered us men of peace as they say You were talking about sisters of omertà they considered us criminals, they considered us men of peace, how to say it.

You were talking about sisters of omertà, the woman inside, let's say, we are always talking about the 70s, then maybe we come to a more modern era, but what kind of role did the woman have inside this ...

The woman is a sister of omertà, so the woman listens and watches, but neither listens nor watches. She is the one who actually provides the parenting. Because usually husbands are imprisoned, killed or in jail. So it is the woman who educates the child to that education, also because in the 70s he was forced to do it,

because even the maternal instinct prevailed over everything, so knowing that in case of war, the war would stop when more males of the other family would have died, every mother tries to save her son, asks for God's forgiveness and hopes that on the battlefield, the empire will be able to stand up.

The fact that you talk about battlefield makes us understand the thought behind these families, because they are considered real soldiers.

But in the end, when there is a fire, you have to exterminate an entire family.

Until the tenth generation.

In fact, it's a war. I started in 2005, the dissociation and the fact that Davide is referring to the fact that my father and the family tried to kill myself. So, well, I had other situations. They tried to poison me, they tried to kidnap me in March 2006. But the most event, let's say, what passed in the chronicle was the morning of September 19. Already in the evening I was immediately knocked out by my father and other members I managed to escape through the stairs

Were you in a secret place?

No, I was living...

You were... you were not under protection yet?

No, I was not under protection

So you were in the village?

I was in the city, I lived in the palace of Vrenna My grandfather had more companions When he thought of arranging the children, I built two five-story buildings so we all got there

So you had all your relatives in the building?

I had all my relatives in the building, yes

Not simple, I imagine, to manage

Yes, but then at the end of the day, at that stage, we talk about dissociation they knew I wanted to collaborate, both because I had told my father and because over the years I understood that some people who had turned to me, anticipating my willingness to collaborate with justice, had already been chained.

Ok, some had already started. No, some had already said. Ah, they had chained him, not with the police. Yes, they had betrayed him. He knows how to talk.

He spoke with the phone.

I was imagining this scene of you going to your father and saying, Dad, I guess it's the worst thing for that kind of context, to say, Dad, I basically deny everything. What was the moment? mistakes he made to me

is when he said that I was a bad person. I remember that I was a bad person, I was a bad person, I was a bad person. I was a bad person, I was a bad person. I was a bad person, I was a bad person. I was a bad person, I was a bad person. I remember one of the worst things that hurts me more than the same accidents he did to me is when he told me, you first kill our enemies and then maybe you'll go.

It hurt me a lot, but I don't want to talk badly about my father, I don't like him, he grew up worse than me. So that was the education he had. I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good student, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy,

I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I was a very good boy, I prefer to say that. And did you explain the reason? I talked to my father because you have to understand that you use a language based on that time and based on the values ​​that they try to pass on to you, so I tried to explain to him and say, but what honor is there in the trangda? What honor is there in an organization or in a family that steals the future of their

children and the children of others? So I matured the choice to collaborate with justice, think about it. The conversation didn't have many words. I was quiet, calm, serene, I left and then the actions started.

Tell us about when your father, by chance, tried to kill you.

So, you have to understand that it's not that my father wanted to kill me. My father, even in that case, was just a soldier, always regulated by the code of honor of the Drangata. So if one betrays, the closest relative has to wash the stain. So I had to think about my father or one of my brothers.

It was his job.

It was his job. And in addition, however, there are actions that must be taken to try to safeguard the good of other relatives. How to say, if one of our people betrays him, we kill him. We tried to kill him. If you touch one of our us, it will be war.

And so my father was sent to China, my father was not the head of the whole family. Unfortunately, in the family there is always a military commander, let's say a military leader,

and then there is always an invisible one that would be the patriarch. In the hierarchy, because I think the hierarchical scale and the roles given by Andrangheta are still a mystery, I think the apex is the Holy Mother or something like that.

International crime, right? Maybe.

Yes, there are many, also because they change as the wave of justice collaborators arrives.

They change, ok.

They change, they know more or less, in 2001 there were these repents, so they know up to this point, so they go to change.

They clean up to where the police have come to know the Gerardi scale.

Perfect, they create other situations that they cannot know. and I was a little bit afraid of the fact that I was going to be a victim of a crime and I was afraid of the fact that I was going to be a victim of a crime and I was afraid of the fact that I was going to be a victim of a crime and I was afraid of the fact that I was going to be a victim of a crime to proceed, so as I said before, first they tried to poison me, then they tried to kidnap me

In what way did they try to poison you?

They tried to poison me trying to adopt techniques that can be in the vicious circuit that is also done in that environment so of women, champagne, cocaine, so they had tried with a person to get me into go to a place like that and then to use cocaine

So you didn't realize it, you found out later?

I know, I refused, I declined the invitation and then the person who was in charge of bringing me the package came to my house to tell me what the intentions were I don't know if you've seen it, but I was in the hospital, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in the hospital with my wife, and I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation,

I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a very bad situation, I was in a to believe in such things. He understood that the same was true about this situation.

Was this person, in any case, threatened by the one who had referred you to the potential poisoning?

That person had some minor problems. He was also half-cra mean it in a negative sense, also because he died, so he was not a person who was very afraid, he was one who did not fear repercussions, so much so that when they killed him maybe five or six years ago, and because he had gone in contrast with another important and still alive boss, it is said that he gesticulated with his hands, in fact before killing him they tortured him and cut his hands off.

And you mean gesticulated with his hands?

You can't gesticulate in front of a boss.

You are disrespecting him, you absolutely cannot allow yourself.

Maybe you can bring your hand closer to his back.

Don't touch him like that!

I'll move him away, it's more uncomfortable, right? So, it's like that. Then we arrive in the evening of September 18th, they organize a plan, they go to one who had a bond of friendship, and he was our affiliate. Then they take him inside the villa,

they hit him with the gun to break his head, knowing that he would have called me. I would have gone up to see what was happening. So the plan was working. This guy calls me and tells me what happened. I was going up to check if I had to take him to the hospital or something else.

While I was getting ready to go up, he calls me and tells me not to go up because there was was a trap, because a friend had warned him that there were two parked cars waiting for someone, he had noticed it from the door lock.

But I have to say, you managed to maintain some friendship.

Yes, a lot, because in I was a child, I was quite disrespected. So much so that, despite the news that I wanted to collaborate, which was now very widespread, even if I denied it to outsiders, I did a period of latitude in what you can call the Corleone of Crotone, the Papanich neighborhood of the Megna family. So I was with Luca Megna, who was murdered a year later.

Not one of them survived,

but I think that fate is either prison or death.

At the time, this was the way. Today, maybe there is no longer the way to prison, maybe they didn't expand it, because they are careful not to commit homicides, also because it leads to great social indignation, and it is a preventive measure to deal with the collaborators of the 17th.

Yes, I would like to understand what the age is today, because obviously, in my opinion, after the Duisburg massacre, the homicides are, in a way, I don't say zeroed, but they are done with much less noise.

Let's say they changed the mode.

So you didn't go up?

I didn't go up, he told me he'd see me at the hospital, they understood that I wasn't going up, so they left. While I was getting in the jeep with my cousin, I see a car that is parked in the dark. I understand that there is something around it. I tell my cousin not to get in the car.

Then I see my father coming out of the car with a gun in his hand, trying to reach us. We run into the stairs, he shoots at the stairs. And then that night ends like this. The next morning I had an appointment with a lawyer because I had to give him €5,000 because my uncle, Sergio Vrenna, was in jail and my wife was also a housekeeper.

And usually certain things work and men do it, so I had this appointment. I had a bond with my uncle regardless of the drangon, so I was very attached to him. So I went down to give this money to this lawyer right under the doorstep of my house, because these guys here suffer twice under the doorstep of my house. One on the stairs, the other under the doorstep. I didn't believe that anything else could happen that day, especially in the morning.

Then it was a legendary day for Crotone, because Crotone Juventus was playing on September 19, 2006.

So a lot of chaos in the city.

Yes, a lot of chaos, I had prepared the tickets, I was also managing the football world, the club belonged to my relatives, so I was doing all kinds of everything else, I was in charge of the football, I was in charge of the society, I was in charge of my relatives, I was in charge of all the other jobs that you don't see, but I was in charge of the studios, I was in charge of the ultra, I was in charge of the tenders

It was a company, wasn't it?

It was a company

It was the biggest company in the world

It was a multinational company, yes, in the world. I think it is the most powerful organization in the world, without a doubt. Even today? Yes, yes, even today, perhaps even more than before. Then maybe I can also explain the characteristics that the account distinguishes as a single one in the criminal world. Then maybe we'll explain them. So at 11.30 I go down, people come who have remained close to me,

some of them who knew I wanted to collaborate, and then after my collaboration they took the same path. And so they bring you weapons, they bring you a projectile rifle. I had a .357 and a .22. So I choose a small caliber caliber, just to please everyone, I didn't want to bring it.

I was putting the rifle in the jacket, but it was too hot. I jokingly said, better the lead than the heat, and I didn't put it in, but I thought nothing would happen. Instead, while I was talking to the lawyer, I just in time,

I threw it in the door. Same scene as the night before, so my father arrives, the cars were high, my father arrives, I'm sent away from the house gate so as not to repeat climbing the stairs, because if another shooter happens on the stairs, something happens, some child, some woman, if she has to kill you, it's better that he kills me in the distance,

so I move a few meters, I go a few meters, he takes the gun again, it's time for me to throw myself in, what's it called, a playroom, he shoots three times, grabs the gun, I take the gun for a while, the I think I got a little bit of a headache, for a moment I was using the gun, but I didn't do it, so I'm very happy about that, because you're never right when you kill a father. It's always a dark page that will stay in your life,

and that will be part of the whole family, so it's a dark stain that would also involve my children, my parents.

Sure, you asked me while you were telling me the scene, right? Because we were talking about the largest organization, the most powerful organization in the world. Don't you find it curious that they didn't manage to eliminate you? I mean, because I always think that if they really wanted to, at some point, they would have succeeded.

Have you ever thought that maybe your father shot you in the ass just to not get you?

You know, I thought about this. I liked it.

Because maybe he had to make the gesture of saying, look, I tried to kill you, he escaped, you can see I shot in front of everyone I liked it, I still like to think about it

but unfortunately scientific evidence shows that he shot from the same place so then he pointed the gun at two other people who were close to me he tried to kill these two too but I like to think about it as a decoy but it didn't go that way I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was lucky, I was distance, I tried to shoot, because if you do that, you'll lose your aim,

but you have to hit. Maybe the first two or three shots didn't aim to kill me, maybe it was my safety. But it went like that, the windows were blowing, I came out of that I didn't want to die, I wanted to go home. I was so scared that I didn't want to die, I wanted to go home. I was so scared that I didn't want to die, I wanted to go home. I was so scared that I didn't want to die, I wanted to go home.

I was so scared that I didn't want to die, I wanted to go home. nothing compared to what could happen Yes, well, but you understand you don't grow up being afraid I wasn't afraid at all the only fear I had was that I didn't want to kill my father if he was a stranger

I'm sorry to say it I would have killed him ten times at that moment, as I thought at the time but he was my father and so I couldn't do something like that thank God every day that I did not raise

my hand and these are things. Your father I imagine is no longer alive. My father died in 2015, in 2016 while I was in prison, he was in the justice department and he was also imprisoned, then he was released because he had a disease, I spent two years in the home and then I died.

Of natural death.

But you know, no, no, I died of a tumor.

Yes, yes, of natural death, I say, it is not ...

So it was not ...

It was not killed, exactly.

At least not of the drunkenness, but of the dangerous organization, which are the tumors that are organized.

Exactly. And I guess you never had any contact with him again?

I had contact remotely, through relatives, because he had changed a lot in the last two years and so he wanted to hear my children, I was in jail.

Well, but it seems to a very human ending

He asked me if he could hear the kids, if he could hear my children I told him that he could hear the kids but only if if he spoke to them as a grandfather. He didn't have to speak of anything else. So he had a little meeting with my sons, they made videos, they sent videos. He never allowed himself to speak of anything else, he behaved as a grandfather, he kept his word. And then, anyway, in the end my father, on his own, called the family, my father, in his own way, called my family, my brothers, and said,

I forgive you, I forgive you, I made you to be united and not divided, so I forgive you, in his own way. With this forgiveness, I wanted to tell my brothers, my sister, who is always your brother.

Of course, don't seek revenge.

How many brothers do you have?

I have two brothers and two sisters, but after my collaboration, many things have changed, so a sister went to Sicily, my brother is abroad, another one, however, the youngest, they grew up differently because in the Drangda not everyone grew up to be soldiers. Because everyone has their role. Everyone has their role and then those who are more condemned are the I don't know if I can say it, but I think that the most important thing is to be able to say that you are a good father, that you are a good son, that you are a good father,

that you are a good father, that you are a good father, that you are a good father, that you are a good father, that you are a good father, that you are a good father, that you and outside. So, I can tell you frankly, even though my brother always tried to keep them out, and it was in my father's agreements, because I, with my father, more often I took agreements. My father was a violent person at home, and so he often attacked my mother. It was something I didn't tolerate since I was a child. I would jump on him, not to attack him, but to stop him.

He would end up with my mother and start with me. When I was 13 or 14, it was the first time I looked him in the eye. It was the first time I answered him in a way that a father, especially in Calabria, never responds. I said, look, you order me, tell me anything, tell me who you want to kill, I'll kill you,

but don't touch my mother anymore, because otherwise I'll kill you. And so from there, however, there were also agreements that I did things, my brothers had to stay out of everything.

And how did he react to this sentence of yours?

I thought he would have attacked me, frankly. But I would have accepted that he would have attacked me, but not that he would have touched my mother. He looked me in the eyes and understood that I would have killed him. For my mother, I would have killed him.

Maybe he respected you even more since that moment.

He didn't touch my mother anymore, even with us at home, even though the youngest of the house never suffered the violence that we suffered, in a certain way, the first three sons, even with us he calmed down, whatever there was more I continued to take it, but it's okay, he calmed down with my mother and my brothers.

As a soldier boy of Andrangheta, how many years ago did you commit your first murder? I grew up with a reserved body

so going back to my fear of drugs I said to myself either you go crazy or you learn to live with it well I was afraid of not even feeling it so until I was 10 I was a very problematic boy. I was very afraid, I was terrified and not afraid.

After 10 years, I became the opposite, I became very violent. So, I overcame my fear. If I didn't overcome it, I wouldn't be a part of it, I wouldn't have a role. So, after that, I was a soldier, but I was trained with weapons, with a knife, with various types of guns, rifles, and I was trained in the military, but I was not trained in the military.

I was trained in the military, but I was not trained in the military. I was trained in the military, but I was not trained in the military, but not with weapons, with a knife, with various types of pistols and rifles. Until when, at 17, my father put me in a car with three strangers. I found myself, he said, go, look, observe, learn, infiltrate and tell us. I found myself in a country called Piovene Rocchchetti in the province of Vicenza in Veneto. At the time it was the continent, Austria and Veneto.

I'm talking about 1989. Yes, it was like going on a trip abroad. At the time the Berlin Wall fell, so it was an incredible trauma.

How old were you when you went to Vicenza?

89

89, so in Veneto there was Felice Maniero?

Yes, there was Felice Maniero

Did you get to know him?

No, I never got to know him, then anyway I was 17 years old in 1989 Even if in some way Even if in some way I met him, because then I was away was away for a while to learn about the distance from the family, the independence and everything. Because you have to learn especially about the distance from the family, because the relationship you create is visceral. But then you have to face the galleys, the titans.

You have to learn about loneliness in some way.

At the time, the drangata was not as radical as it is today. The Italian government was not as radical as it is today. Franco Coccotrovato was in Lombardy, which was already a very important bus, The Vicentino area was under the influence of the Sicilian mafia. But the dragnet was starting to infiltrate, it was starting to radicalize, but it's true that I demanded it on purpose, also because my generation grew differently from the others.

Once the drangetist had to be only in Calabria, the dranget existed only in Calabria. Instead, my generation grew angry, I was born in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, I grew up in Calabria, and I think that's what we're going to do. I think that's what we're going to do. I think that's what we're going to do.

I think that's what we're going to do.

I think that's what we're going to do. I think that's what powerful family, the ruling one at this moment of Andrangheta, is not on the judicial chronicles, it is invisible. I think that invisibility is the real secret to stay powerful.

Andrangheta is a society, and like all societies it is on various levels. And so there are also the levels of the invisible, which in reality, all in in reality are not so invisible, maybe they don't want to see, and when they stop being invisible they become untouchable. So it's a whole society,

which if we want to divide it in a very simple way, in some levels we can reach that there is a part of Balorda, today even more, before less. What do you mean by Balorda? Balorda, those who go to ask the marketer, the negotiator. It will also go to Visibile.

500 euros, there are those who help you solve a problem.

Yes, they make a bit of a mess when they have to do it, and they still keep the Ministry's attention. Then there is the department of the Honourable Men. So in the Honourable Men, there is the military department, which deals mainly with homicides, big robberies and important drug trafficking, among many other things.

This department is commanded by the infamous 41 Bis, so the Holy Mother, if we want to call her that, who will spend a life at 41 Bis, and who, however, acts as a bridge between the lower levels and the upper levels.

Between the lower society and the upper society?

No, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter the lower class is not involved oh, so we're not talking about the rank? no, the upper class is invisible let's say that it's the sector of the bourgeois the compensation chamber

they call it

there's an invisible part or clean part of the family which is the bourgeois part the one that are still entrepreneurs lawyers inserted perfectly in the civil society the family, which is the bourgeois part, those who are entrepreneurs, sometimes inserted perfectly in civil society, let's say, so they are those who then sit at the table

with the various powers, including the components of the institutions or belonging to the Masonic lodges, but what makes the transition, what guarantees everything is the family of the 41 bis, which keeps everything in balance, because it is also the beautiful part of the family that made a career thanks to the men of honor, if they do not respond as they should respond, the 41st will send the military. Today, are the homicides zeroed or do they still happen?

And if they happen, how is there a difference compared to the first republic of Andrangheta?

Today, homicides in Andrangheta are counted. They are counted and we must not think only of Italy. Some homicides have also happened in Spain and other places. They are counted and have a limited number. Of course, murders are committed today, especially if you catch a cold,

you catch a cold, you get sick. And there are some murders, I don't have the evidence today, because I'm not part of that world, that happen but are not drug homicides, they pass for suicides, they pass for accidents, some strange things happen.

One thing that happens to me is the incitement to suicide, you have to kill yourself because otherwise... They killed him.

Otherwise I'll kill your family.

It's a story that Luigi might be able to tell. Do you remember when Bruno Fuduli was killed? Because it's an absurd, incredible story in which this man is an entrepreneur in the 90s, an entrepreneur who dealt with marbles, things that had absolutely nothing to do with those contexts, subjects related to lindens arrive, they tell him that they want to use his company to smear cocaine around the world. Inside the marmes they put cocaine.

Yes, yes, so they find it. Absolutely. And he, we are talking about tons, he was sent here from South America, to Europe. At a certain point they cut him off. No, he becomes an informant first, then he starts to work as a justice collaborator.

Basically they catch him and then, to avoid... Luigi will obviously correct me, to avoid problems that are not understood in what context, in a completely mysterious way, he is found in 2019 stuck to a tree, if I'm not mistaken, not too far from his home, with the car, with the keys keys still attached to the frame,

as if someone had taken it there with his car and left it there, stuck to a tree.

It is said that it was not completely pensionable, so the feet touched the ground, but I don't know, we have to see what the doctors say.

Yes, but I imagined that a way to get a person out of trouble is to tell them, you kill yourself first, and it's a dead man rather than killing your whole family.

If he didn't kill himself, he was an arrest because Bruno is not that he was arrested like that, I allow myself to call him that because anyway over the years I had the opportunity to talk with one of his historical companions, with whom he also had a daughter and therefore he fought to give justice to her husband the husband fought against the system he tried to warn her a thousand times about the abandonment of the state

the lack of the protection program in the end I think he gave up and so he decided...

there was no other way let's get to the relationship between the State and how the State treats its collaborators, the treatment reserved for justice collaborators. Thanks to your collaboration, you have brought an acceleration compared to the investigations of the Italian prosecutor's office. 16 Italian prosecutors

and also German, if I'm not mistaken

Yes, also foreign So there is no doubt that your collaboration was precious for the investigators

but you are now without the protection of the State, right? Once in the 90s, because you have to make a distinction between the wave of collaborators of the 90s and those of 2000, the more murders you had, the more things you counted in that moment of emergency and the more you were rewarded. From 2000 onwards, the more serious things you did, the more you pay the price at the detention level,

and the more a society that is changing seems to give more, and become an aggravating factor, not a reward. I came to collaborate with 16 anti-mafia prosecutors, two foreigners, but they remained unchanged,

and drug addicts throughout Italy, but also abroad. Hundreds? Yes, yes, at this time I'm talking about over 500, I think that's the reason why we have a lot of people who are interested in the subject of the war. I think that's the reason why we have a lot of people who are interested in the subject of the war. I think that's the reason why we have a lot of people who are interested in the subject

of the war. I think that's the reason why we have a lot of, recently, even the Germans say that the Eureka operation, which is considered the most important drug operation in Europe at least I have said to the investigators I have collaborated with, I saw it on a television broadcast without me it would not have been possible to do it

we can say that you are the biggest justice collaborator that comes from the Andranghetti coasts yet the state has taken away the protection that is reserved to this type of collaborators. I mean, it doesn't seem like a big publicity to encourage collaborations and to try to shed light on...

In fact, you don't want to encourage collaborations.

But at this point, I would like to ask a question here, I think that's the most important thing. I think that's the most important thing. I think that's the most important thing.

I think that's the most important thing.

I think that's the most important thing. I think that's the most important thing. and she's from Veste Prada, Veste like us, she speaks like us, she's everywhere, so this is her power

At this point, I always do this provocation because we have made several episodes, couldn't we get to a point where we erase all the rhetoric and little cards and dice. And at this point, I'm not saying legalize it, but this is not the term, but you understand what I mean. At this point, if we talk about the largest Italian company, which in some way is an integral part of the civil society, it has even come to be rooted in the organs that should be cleaner than our country but at this point it is not worth making it a wealth for the country even if it comes from the blood

because anyway we either have to take care of ourselves for the next 20 years and pretend to do a battle against the moulinéamento where the state must fight itself or at this point let's make it a wealth for the community

and make it so that it can ... I understand that it is unethical and immoral, but it can make sense as a reasoning

You said something very brave and very intelligent, after what we will finish saying tomorrow morning they will attack us, and I think that the Italian government has to be very careful about it. I think that the Italian government has to be very careful about it. I think that the Italian government has to be very careful about it. I think that the Italian government has to be very careful about it. I think that the Italian government has to be very careful about it. the also this, because the professional program should not only be information, but also

to subtract men from the drangata, to subtract men, to break a chain, the chain that carries the power of the drangata that is passed from father to son, to infinity.

But also because the mafia is rooted where there is no presence of the state. So, if the state does not give a future to its own population, and there is an organization that manages to give a future to the new generations,

but it's normal.

There is an important speech to make, though, because in my opinion, those who believe, or when you hear around that the mafia is the anti-state, unfortunately, that is, those who don't understand the phenomenon. Because the mafia is not the anti-state, it is a part of the state, the deviant state, which is not actually deviant, because they allow it to grow and proliferate. On this I wanted to ask a question, clearly inherent to Luigi,

because there is another important collaborator in Milan, as Lombardy, Saverio Morabito. I would like to understand... He says one thing, and that is... He says that there is, and he is the only collaborator of the Andrangheta of history who has ever said it, a chamber... he calls it a control chamber, if I'm not mistaken, and it's an organ that in theory would be superior to the various criminal leaders of the Andrangheta, an organ that would be superior and that he holds, not only that there is the Andrangheta above, but that they are a co-existence of mafias, that is, it's our thing, Andrangheta and Camorra, all together, plus all the most important politicians, the lawyers...

But is it connected to the Hydra inquiry?

No, no, no, absolutely not. It's something he's been saying since the 90s. But the point is that, of course, there is no proof of this stuff here. He said it. I wanted to know, since Luigi comes from a family of intrangheta from birth, it is not that you can enter, it is not the camorra that you take, you enter, you shoot, you make your way with blood, or you are born,

or you can only do the external affiliation and you will never become a man, so I want to know what you think of this whole story, if you think it is a fandom or you think it is possible, because from what you say to Federico and Davide say, I think... tell me.

We take into account that the economy submerged in this country is very important, indeed it is standing, so much so that it is also calculated in the GDP.

Ah, it is calculated in the GDP?

Yes, absolutely. What the fuck are you saying? Without Landrani, I said it last time... So in the Italian GDP, the one of the provinces...

Of the mafias.

No, guys, what a fantastic country.

What is 3%?

It's a lot!

3.5% if I'm not mistaken.

We'll probably be in deep shit.

Yes, Senza would collapse.

It would have a public debt in Neustadt.

What's the point of all this?

So the question was, if you are aware of this, or if you think it's plausible.

Because it's frankly incredible,

and I don't think it's absurd to think that there are ministers who see themselves as the head of the Andranghe, the head of Cosa Nostra, the various leaders, who don't have a head. the gang, the head of our thing,

the various leaders, who then don't have a head, but oh well, you get the point. They all see each other and say, let's do this today, let's send the world in this way. It seems crazy to me. But tell me what you think.

Yes, there is power, where there is power there is mafia, and therefore, power tries to save itself and the most powerful men try in some way, at least those who are mixed in the illegitimate, to keep the situation a little under control. Perhaps in other times these meetings could have happened with characters that we are known to, the judges, today maybe they are more double-breasted and therefore try to influence the trend.

Naturally, the Drangheta is a very particular organization, where it does not ask for help more to the deviant laws of Freemasonry or to corrupt politicians, but in reality it is the ones who are against the drangon, having this military power, this economic power and this global expansion, to go against the dragon is not convenient for anyone.

I know you well, so I'll allow myself to make this point to you, almost smiling, you took it a little wide, you didn't answer the question.

I was plausible. You took it a bit wide, you didn't answer the question.

He says this and it's very detailed in this context, because in Milan he says he saw it and touched it. Does he still mean it today? Well, when I told a colleague, I told him in 2019, so today...

I've been saying it it for a while now, but I've been following Gratteri a lot, and he says that if there's a truth to be told, you can't prove it, it's better not to tell it.

Oh, that's true. If you don't have the evidence, you say.

What do you think of Gratteri? I think that the only person who is trying to teach us how to behave as citizens, is the one who goes to the mayor and asks what is wrong in this country, without fear, without anything. He is an independent man, he does not belong to any current party, so if he has to criticize the X law or the minister Y, he does it. He does not do it with a criticism of destruction, but he does it with a criticism of building. So, frankly, he is not my brother, we are not friends, I don't know if we will ever become friends, for the moment it is right that there is a writer between me and him,

for the sake of justice and all the others, but I think he is really a great man.

I'll ask you a provocative question. Don't you think that some of the operations carried out by Gratteri went a little bit in the wrong direction the We have to take into consideration the fact that Dr. Piatteri is a magistrate who is

very envious of politics and perhaps even of his colleagues. He is accused of things that in fact do not exist. However, he is accused of reimbursing Catanzaro for unfair detention, but he arrived in Catanzaro, if I remember correctly, in 2016, so there were things he hadn't done. He is a very envious magistrate and therefore everything is amplified. Those who do nothing, do not make mistakes. The consequences that we have called for, in fact, are in all the right cases.

The truth is that every great magistrate, now I'm not comparing Cratteri and Falcone, but every great magistrate in life is extremely... not only in view of politics, but also in view of... Falcone was called by the Palermo Prosecutor's Office the Palace of Poisons, precisely because he was attacked by everyone. Gratteri has done some trials, in which he has collaborated among others, also collaborated with Luigi. But, for example, the Scott Rebirth trial, which is one of the most important trials ever,

there were hundreds of defendants. Someone, it's clear, wasn't actually investigated, but he wasn't convicted, because then they released him. But it happens in every big trial, and this happened also in the Maxi-Trial of Falcone and Borsellino, but it's not that they said, Falcone and Borsellino, but they didn't say that they are not able to do it. The accusatory system remains.

The point is that the Magistratura has removed the citizens for years and they no longer have confidence in the Magistratura because they are politicized. Because they are slaves of politics. And when they will do, this is my opinion, I'm not talking on behalf of Palpani, when they will do the separation of careers, they will create a precedent for which we will see magistrates who will be able to investigate only when and if politics will allow it,

I am simplifying it to the bone, but the point is that it is an independent power that must be left alone. You say that it has too much power and should not have it, but the truth is that I am an idealist in this, I believe that people, those who should't have to be condemned, won't use it. Excuse me, Luigi, you're right.

In fact, we talked about some invisible subjects, which are not so invisible, when they start to see, they become untouchable. I, frankly, don't have to defend him, neither my brother nor my friend, to say, he's a person I love very much.

I don't think Grateri will come and capture you because you're close to the boss, etc. I strongly believe that some of these people, some people came out of nowhere, certainly someone was not involved, just some changes, we gave up on the drangon, we gave up on the mafias, and in addition the fact that Grattari was in the faceelight and therefore everyone was against him, some

were against him and wanted to make him wrong, some people who were in high times, had not found political influence, political help, institutional, instead they found it and therefore maybe they dug it a little.

Yes, but they stuck it because now on the 7th he goes to do a program, a mafia lesson, which is literally called as a mafia lesson, which madeo did on Rai in 2005-2006 when I was little, and Falcone did it, even Falcone and Borsellino were always on TV. And they were attacked because they were anti-mafia professionals. They say this to everyone, to Di Matteo, the deal is not... Everything they say, they attack it,

because there is half the world that... The power is afraid of the Gratteri. Who is mixed with fear of a Gratteri, but also with fear of the C-16. This broadcast, which will be four episodes, I give you an exclusive,

hoping that the Gratteri don't arrest me. In the second episode, I have four episodes, I give myself an exclusive, hoping that Gratteri doesn't arrest me. In the second episode, there should be...

Now Gratteri is shooting you, just kidding!

There should be my interview.

You told us about the Andranghe of the 70s, so also about this particular construction, these rites. What kind of rites have remained to this day? And also this treatment of the younger people has remained unchanged? The differences that you see, beyond those we have already talked about in business, also in going abroad, let's say, within the ritual mechanisms,

what has remained similar to the time?

The ritual exists, the rituals exist, the affiliation exists, the rule exists, without the rule we could no longer talk about a unitary and vertical dragata. There is no absolute leader in dragata, it will never exist, the dragatista is raised with pride and dignity, he will never recognize an undisputed leader, if not in his leader, if he respects it, if he deserves to be his boss. And so there are these things. Of course there are sleeping killers, someone teaches his children to shoot,

but today they always have a drangon education, but they teach them the laws of finance, of the economy, and many other situations. Today drangon has made itself a society, it has also made itself a state. Today the dragon dresses like us, speaks like us. I challenge anyone, no?

You are talking about the dragon, okay? I can assure you that the mafias are a great danger for democracy, meritocracy, trade, work and so on. I tell you so many things because they pollute where they touch it. But I don't believe that there are magistrates, maybe police, maybe activists, who hunt with anger, compassion, justice, a drug addict.

I don't believe that if you go around Italy, people talk so badly about drugs. But it is true that people see it, they see it, people are writing about a drug addict and that they are happy, even at this moment, of social dissent, they see the drug addict as a revolutionary, as someone who is guaranteed.

Social assistance.

And then, however, it is clear that they have brought in Europe, which today has become So, there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that there is a lot of evidence that and on the table of many Italians. Almost all of them. A typical product. Consequently, even those who consume substances

can only estimate the drug that in their own way makes cocaine arrive from Colombia directly with the stamp of Colombia and not from Albania, which is perhaps synthetic.

I noticed this before, when you were talking about education, about your parents, at a certain point, you said, I realized I was a bit plagiarized, I don't give all these responsibilities, even to some children. You, then we went on with the story, you had this confrontation with your father,

then you went on...

I didn't have it with my father, because it would be limiting. I had it with the story, you had this connection with your father I didn't have it with my father because it would be limiting I had it with that family

with that family, exactly you were questioned about this thing here I was raised in this way, the values that have injected me when you asked yourself these questions over time, what answers did you give yourself? you were indulgent with the whole family, like, they too, in turn, grew up like this?

Yes, I also had understanding for them, but anyway, I wasn't the one who was a little plagiarized, I was completely indoctrinated, manipulated, used, like everyone of that time and probably even today. And so, anyway, I quotation marks, delinquents, and so they always try to take the daughter of another important family when he is destined to become the boss, or to take a woman who speaks the language of the family, who speaks the language of the family, who speaks the language of the family, who speaks the language of another important family when he is destined to become the boss

or to take a woman who speaks Mafia Yes, who can be functional to the purpose

Like old aristocratic families

I was lucky that my father didn't marry for love so I have a mother who belongs to a family that is the exact opposite of the mafia. So they tried to put those values in me, while my father was trying to make his family prevail. Then I had a fantastic maternal grandfather,

unfortunately he was the only one who brought me a smile in that period. Unfortunately he died, I. Unfortunately, he died. I hated him because he died, because he left me a baby. He was my only reference, my only light. And there, my father's family, my father and their culture, lost everything.

So I feel like a half-blood drangon.

How did he bring you a smile?

What memories do you have of him? I have beautiful memories of my grandfather, even if I was very young. My grandfather was a person who had suffered the Second World War, and he was a man who was always

smiling. When he held my hand, I felt protected, I felt calm with him. I was not a normal child, I was a strongly disturbed child who lived in a world where violence was everyday,

both the survivors and the dead. My grandfather was my peace.

I asked you these two questions about your past and about the present. What I'm asking is, isn't it much more difficult to create today these children of Andrangheta, since the world is much more open, there are many voices, you have social connections, so it's more difficult to create very closed bubbles

in which to build a sort of alternative reality, isn't it?

No, today it is much easier because the criminal culture still seems to attract a certain charm in the world, the mafiosity continues to grow, so we all see smaller boys who talk about honor and respect and all these things here. so finding this fashion mentality, despite the fact that it has been a long time, is becoming more and more widespread

and more and more the absence of the state, if you think about it, it is an organization that creates opportunities where the state does not create them

exactly, then we keep in mind that if the drangatello is really so powerful worldwide, we keep in mind that it has probably infiltrated its own men in other states. These are not its own men, it manages to buy them. Because, however, the drangata has many powers. There are men who maybe don't buy with money, but they buy in other ways, with vices. It can be cocaine, it can be sex, they can be rich.

Is the biggest business today of the drangata remains cocaine?

Well, drangata is everywhere, it's a company

It could be that there is a big company today that was born thanks to the cleaning of dirty money that maybe makes more money than cocaine we can't know

It lives in all sectors, including prostitution and it moves in many businesses paying attention to some that have social meaning. Cocaine is what brings a lot, it fills that sector that we call the submerged economic power, which I think will still be able to make 60 billion, I don't know, I'm not a statistic, I've heard, I don't know, I'm not a statistician, I've heard, I don't know.

I'm starting to understand that the real bosses, I think, have a large liquidity, but I don't notice the effort, I don't notice the opulence. That's the strength.

Or am I wrong? It remains a constant.

It remains a secret organization. I can say, but what is it?

I'm a boss at Drag and Tee. I'm a boss at Drag and Tee. I'm full of billions and I can't use them, I can't sell them.

The money is not the end. They are the means for power. Power beats money. And then, as I told you before,

if you are born in that kind of context, they build you a scenario where money is an accessory for you.

But there is also a power, there is also an ideology. If it weren't for that, many broken families, who now make the history of the drangata, and we know that they are very rich, would not start doing drangata. So there are other things that push them.

I wanted to ask Luigi something, because two years ago, I'll summarize quickly, it is said that, we all heard, Nicolino Grandaracri was repenting, Luigi is the first collaborator of justice of the Crotonese, of history. With a blood bond, a family of many stories. Relevant, you have disseminated the cards What happens? Who is Nicolino Grandaragri?

Boss of Cutro, one of the, we said before, international crime maybe he is one of the most important bosses they have defined him as one of the greatest drug traffickers, murderers, he did anything and he is said to be a rubber hand if I'm not mistaken. Why a rubber hand? Because apparently he doesn't have one. He has a hand that has a deformation.

So basically what happens? Two years ago, a couple of years ago, he says I want to complain, I want to collaborate. It turns out, because then Luigi Jaco also told us about the false repents, maybe about this phenomenon, we found out that he just wanted to pollute the wells, as they say in the jargon.

He wanted a fake collaboration.

Yes, to get a discount, to go out. But he was, all those who do this job, I was right at the beginning, they paid attention, they said, my goodness, he's practically the greatest, one of the greatest ever, and he wants to speak. What can he say? Because he will certainly have contact with the highest politicians, not just the Italians, magistrates and everything.

Then in the end he said nothing and that's fine. He only talked about things that other collaborators had also talked about. But you, in the meantime, I wanted to know if you've ever met him, have you ever seen him, and second, what do you think of this false collaboration?

Yes, I knew him, he was a great actor, I have always considered him a criminal genius. No, I don't think he wanted to make a fake collaboration. He still believed he was in the 90s, so with the emergency law, where he could still say treat both in money and in immunity on relatives. Instead, times have changed, he found Grateri in front of him, who did not accept any form of treatment. So he didn't want to pretend to be sorry.

He wanted to do the job of justice, to my humble opinion, then I didn't want to pretend to be sorry, he wanted to collaborate with justice, I didn't read the cards, he wanted to collaborate with justice, but he wanted to have extra advantages, like the safeguard of his family.

Now they don't do it anymore, but what sense does it make? Why should I collaborate if you don't give me a fucking in exchange?

No, it's not that, wait, wait, there's something I have to say. First, I'll count it. Luigi, what does it say? It says, in 1992, when the system was created, both the protection and the reward system, what could you have in PDA? You could ask for almost everything. You could say, I want, I don't know,

2000 euros a month fixed, there were no euros. I want my family to come, 20 people brought to America. I want you to create... Instead now, they didn't take away the protection programs, almost never. There are even collaborators in the 90s who have done rehabs, to whom, however, they did not take it away.

Instead, under the protection program, there are people who killed people under the protection program and we took it away from them, while instead other people today, like Luigi himself, but also later, not only in Andrangheta, but also in Cosa Nostra, in Camorra, maybe you do a wrong interview and Tarte takes it away from you.

In fact, they took away the protection of the state after an interview, right?

So, the first to repent, also because of the emergency, some wanted to make a career, and so in the negotiation between the one who told and the one who didn't tell, who was also precious, who didn't tell, which was also precious, he managed to get the money with the suitcase. So he had extraordinary treatments, beyond what a functional protection program should provide.

So they had the safeguard of some family members. It is said that Rina had a lot of treasure, it is found in Malta, it is found in many other places, we have never found Rina's treasure, so many collaborators had to find something. So I think that Niccolino Granderacchi was trying to have

safeguards for some of his relatives, and safeguards for some of his relatives.

But a boss like that, how does he collaborate?

But look, if there was a serious protection program, because mine is not that I contrast the protection program, I believe a lot in the protection program, I believe that it should be the difference, which can be the people, the prosecutor, the DAP itself, and it should also be the protection program. If you really give me a definitive change of identity right away, let's talk about a serious person who really wants to collaborate, a serious person who wants to collaborate, start by telling me about his facts, the facts of his family, his friends and then his enemies, as Gratteri tells us and Nicolino Granderacchi, for a change of identity. I collaborated with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian

government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government, with the Italian government as my two sons are, then I can also collaborate for an internal change, for a change within the family. I collaborated because I want my children to grow up in that world,

mainly. In my head, a bit of the time, I believed in a good way, I also thought that my contribution could serve to stop the FAED and to save many soldiers' children. Still, I am 19 years old and I am engaged in social anti-mafia politics.

I am engaged in projects such as the book of choice, which teaches and teaches obviously also the obsolete protection program that people must be recovered. We must integrate them.

Your children, after your collaboration, not only have the mark of being mafiosi,

in addition to the mark of being children of infamies. The civil society calls them children of repentants, which in an elegant way calls them children of infamies.

From all the stories you've told us, you've reflected a lot on yourself, probably also on how your brothers grew up, and so you've internalized this a little bit, and you and understood the horror of all this and so maybe in your intention it was also to break this continuity of creation, of bubbles, of total rewriting of reality

I was born there, then maybe whoever chooses to join may have different convictions I found myself in that context, most of my friends who grew up, who played football, who did many things together, who lived in the criminal context, were all killed, some at 41 years old, a couple of them... And that's the difference, even if we're talking about a criminal world, you didn't choose it,

other people did.

Other people may choose it, I grew up with children, cousins, children of relatives,

and we were also children, little boys, but it's different, if you choose it, you may have had a childhood. You think about it, I had my childhood.

Here in this case, he... No, what I said... You choose the indoles What I said, of course, maybe even there, you are the result of the education you have, of the history, of genetics, so even there we should talk about choice, totally aware, but of course it is different to be born within... I ask you this thing, then we go to the closing. You told us about this program, about some problems that are there, how you talked about them

There are a lot of problems, especially when we do the sessions and they don't answer for months and months and months and you get stuck for anything, like they do with the...

But you also said that it's fundamental for the fight against the disease I at the same time, after this conversation conversation I come to think that if since the 90s, the andrangheta, because we're talking about the andrangheta, has actually spread all over the world. What was all this for?

We didn't take a step back.

Sure, sure. Because we used the justice collaborators, many justice collaborators are USEJET. I'm talking about the fight against the mafia in general, I mean the collaborators. Yes, yes, yes. Even some famous journalist thinks he can continue to treat justice workers like USEJET.

We gave that shot. Then that shot needed the State to go ahead to give the blows of grace, using a language. Instead, no. They immediately tried to implode the system, trying to collect the system implode, trying to collect small files, small files of little account, just to make it implode.

So there was a slowdown immediately. So even today, to give an example, then we had four years ago, five years ago, we had 1,300 collaborators. Now we have 793, just halved. So you don't know, you don't know. I know because I read certain things.

It's normal that if you are half-way through in four years with the justice laboratory, there will be less blitz, there will be less things. So, we need to collect. Then there is the special protection program. If you have a special protection program, you have to collect people who really know a lot of things

and who are serious people with quality statements. Then, it is not true that the more homicides you do, the more facts you know, and then you are rewarded. Today, you are damaged, the more homicides, the more you are made a hero. I went out at the end of the day to tell you. And so, now I'm going to make a speech now.

No, it was ... We're moving forward, there's no need to ... In fact, in my opinion, we should change the rhetoric a bit.

We should say, guys, we didn't manage to defeat them. It's not that we didn't manage to ...

We can do it!

We said it before, they didn't want to. But the controller is the controlled one. They didn't want to do that. But you are the controller and the controlled.

The controller is the controlled and the controlled is also the infiltrated. So there are different situations.

So it's convenient that it stays like that. But I can say, I would appreciate a party more, that from tomorrow you tell me, you know what there is, with the fight of the mafia, enough with this rhetoric, with the fight of the mafia, let's legalize it. Look, legalize it. But now legalize it is to find a small term to ... But let's sit at a table and add it to the pile in a clean way.

It's the wrong cultural country.

I know. It's a country that ... In Japan they are doing this.

We are not going to Japan, it is a country ... Until then we will continue with the fifth film, which every time we say, we do, the governments that will come will say, we will do so much, nothing will happen.

You know what it is? There is a question. Luigi clearly lives it as a person, as an insider, as a person who has touched these things with his hand because he was born. I try to, when we talk about the central protection service, to see things in half, to be in half. What does it mean in half? It only means that I clearly know those of the central protection service and I know many collaborators. The collaborators I talk to, and this is an extremely bitter thing, they all tell me, it was almost convenient not to speak, because now we are suffering things that we would not have wanted to suffer, but there is also to say that there are people,

specifically those who run the central protection service, the police officers who protect the collaborators who are in there, who risk their lives, specifically as the collaborators do, no one knows their names, they are paid a misery, it is an organ that should have more funds, more power, etc. and nothing comes from politics, so they are in the middle, that is, there is not only the collaborator, there are also the poraces who say

we are the ones who on the street have to fight the mafia, but they are not helped to do it. Well, there is a part of truth in what he says. So, let's keep in mind that the famous paper, right?

With the treatise.

The treatise is often there, that is the most famous, but it is often there. So it exists, so it is used for potential.

There was.

The potential of the collaborative justice, we got there. There have been politicians who have been condemned by the mafia. So let's imagine how well they wanted this system. I don't talk about the central service. I do it deliberately, because to unload all the blame on the central service, which certainly has it, would be a bit non-limitative.

I'm talking about a protection program, which is a whole that is managed by the Dynop, the central service, the central commission and the Ministry of the Interior. So we have to understand that we cannot only discharge the protection service, even if we have also disturbed its beautiful things.

I had asked you before, you told me that your first murder years old, you told me when you went to Veneto.

No, I wasn't my first murder at 17 years old, I was in Veneto.

So I wanted to ask you, if you remember your first murder, if you ever had to kill a person with whom you had a human relationship, to whom you were linked, because I imagine that killing people you don't know is much easier than killing, and how did you experience this experience?

So, I was from Veneto, I moved to Emilia Romagna, from Emilia Romagna I arrived in Tuscany, I lived in Tirrenia, finally in Tirrenia I found peace and balance. There was Italy 90, so everything was fine. I was fine, I had overcome the distance from my family, etc. Then, however, a phone call came, when the family calls, you have to answer. I went down, in June 1990,

already in November of the same year, I found myself involved in the massacre of Piazza Pitagora, after three months. And then the following year I committed a homicide that I had to organize, together with some of my relatives, and so it was the Villarillo murder. And then, well, I'm sorry for all these situations here,

because then, you see, the discourse is different. For me, as Deandre says, they only had the uniform of another color. So they were shooting at us, we were shooting at them. They believed in true religion, we believed in true religion. So many like me were left on the ground.

Maybe I was a little lucky. In all these things, the greatest regret, let's say, was the Villarillo murder, because he was a person I didn't know, they only showed me once, they painted him in a certain way to charge the anger, then I always had a great esteem for one of his sons, who is a very important restaurateur, very good, we love this job, so I have a lot able to work with him.

I was very happy to be able to work with him. I was very happy to be able to work with him. I knew my daughter, but for the death of a 90s boy, Vittorio Gazzato, I had to carry this work to completion, which still hurts me a lot.

And in total, how many people have you killed?

I was killed in 5 days. Thank God I dissociated young. Today I am 20 years old and I have dissociated, so thank God I got as dirty as possible, or even better, I killed as little as possible the various parts of nothing. Then I found myself in a conflict of war, for me it was war, so I don't think people are happy when you go to war and you killed maybe another boy like him or he killed another friend of yours that you grew up with, a relative of yours. There were many wars, I never touched an innocent, I would never have done it, I refused all the money in the world for matters of interest, homicides for interests, so I didn't care

if the wife betrayed the husband, the husband betrayed the wife, I put any money on the table. I never wanted to have such convergences. I never killed a person for money.

In these two stories, a great awareness also emerges of these situations, but there have been times when you felt very proud, very brave in this kind of... Because you often told us about it as something not only of homicide, but of a lot of guilt, even sad. From what you told us, apart from some segments,

like when you told us about your grandfather, about some experience, do you remember life as a lot of guilt,. Do you remember life very deeply, from what you're telling us?

The bad thing is that there's a part of life that I don't remember, and when I do, I cry. So I have a lost childhood. Then, anyway, in the end, you have meritocracy, you don't become a boss

because you're the son of an ex-thief, you have to earn your merits on the battlefield. And so, in the end, professionalism, acceptance, moral enrichment, the agreements you make with your family to safeguard other situations, make you do your job well, but I never fully believed in it.

You know what it's like when you're a repentant, in my opinion? You're a repentant when you stop believing in that thing. I'm a volunteer dissociate, I am a volunteer collaborator, I didn't believe in drangata, I probably never believed in it. If I had believed in it and I hadn't regretted it today, my children would have been drangitists, they would have had a drangitist education, and so on.

I remember little of my childhood, as if I had never had it, I had to grow up quickly. So when I think about it, I see a picture of me when I was a child, I start crying a little bit, because I get moved, I pity that child, I don't even recognize myself, but I say, I was a child, I was a child too. You don't see him as part of you anymore, you see him as an outsider? I see him with regret, I see him as an outsider, I try not to be too much of a figure. Today I think of that child who needed a hand so much, that he would smile at him, that he would take him away.

Today I am part of the Free Project of Sheik, together with the judge of Belle, the doctor of Seville, so we go to school, I do it every month with them, we do it for the institutions, I do it telematically, so I talk to these children, I talk to these young people, many are not criminals, I also talk to the communities of the ministerial group for young people who have made mistakes, I mainly, my social is centered on minors, on young people, so I would like there were no others.

The Free Choice Project is essentially the project that strives to avoid that minors, that children, that boys, end up like their parents and usually they tend to take them removed when they are... When they are forced to, because the free choice project

is composed of two situations. One is a ministerial protocol, where there is a minority justice and it is acted in the way it should be acted. The other is preventive. Education. In the judiciary of Bella, in the judiciary of Bella and in the judiciary of Bella and the Sevilla's doctor

or in the project itself, it's to remove the children we want to give an opportunity with the mothers who want to keep their children away it's a parallel world so you see, some things to try to find integration, peace and social

there are already some authorities that do it as a free choice and the protection program should do it too. So we have to enhance the strength of the marches, by attracting men and trying to integrate them, make them know who they are.

You can't empty the ocean with a bucket.

No, but come on, I don't think it's possible.

You believe it's possible? Look, today our state, our society, really makes you become skeptical, but I always Do you believe that it is possible?

Look, today our state, our society, really makes you skeptical, but I always stay firm on some situations. One is that when you stop believing, they have won. And so I can't accept this because I'm dedicating my life, I'm dedicating my life to my family for a change. And then, as Bozzalino said, if I'm not mistaken, if we didn't fight, the world would be even worse. Unfortunately, there is good and there is bad.

Sometimes things mix up, it's hard, I don't want to deceive anyone, I would like to repeat it a thousand times, but I never do it. I never do it, I never have to give up. All in all, I feel lucky, the support program is doing what my family does, it's an incredible thing, it doesn't even receive us, it doesn't answer anything. Keep in mind that I'm off the program.

I'm off the program, not so much for the interview I didn't authorize, because in the end, no one admitted me.

Why did they take away your program?

I asked for the program. But I didn't even want it when I collaborated. I told Dr. Bruni, who was my first magistrate, in my head, I don't want the protection program. I stayed in Calabria, put me in a place, I'll give you a hand to try to change things. After five years, I saw my family being massacred, the Seviziari, in many ways, by this obsolete protection program,

so I had my lawyer write a letter saying that I was not renewing the contract because it had expired, I was not renewing it because I had continued to collaborate. So to close this institution peacefully, I no longer wanted the program. I repeated the same thing for another two years, three.

The third year, they fired me because, like a jealous woman, she didn't accept that I left her. And so, no, I'm the one who left you. So they fired me. They found the pretext for the interview. They fired me for something I had asked for.

Then, after that, we do TAR, we do a State Council. The State Council imposes on them to put my whole family under a program. What do they do? They do a special protection program only for my wife and my wife's family. I imprisoned him. I saw that maybe if they wanted to get those 300 euros that they give you in jail,

I thought the State needed 300 euros that they give you in jail, so I don't make them reconsider because I want to make a gesture of... and so I left everything. Now I fight, I don't want to talk about myself as a person who has suffered in the petition program. I come from the war, so the war is a horror, it's a mistake, you make them, you suffer them. So I did the injustice, I suffer them, I take my manganese, I know how to accept it, but I'm going to accept it for my family, for my children, especially for my wife's family.

I have an old wife, I have two brothers-in-law. They drove me crazy in 2020. So, if you're disconnected, you have a nice bed. My husband died five or six years ago, while he was under a depression program in 2017. In the end, we have a bed and a bed. My husband died 5-6 years ago, while I was under the program of depression in 2017. In the end, we had to make him burn.

So my battle, as far as my personal life is concerned, because I work on a large scale, is mainly focused on my wife's family and my children. My wife, who is a denunciator before me, because in reality the one who denounces first is my wife, and my wife is the one who brings me to collaborate. I thought of getting rid of myself. My wife was a small merchant, etc., etc. No, I say it's her fault, it's her sin, it was to fall in love with me. Okay, I agree, so much in

this rhetorical country, I agree with you, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, I'm not going to say that I'm a racist, they went to get them overnight. These people have been living in a house for 19 years, with very few opportunities to work. They keep us.

But who keeps us? What does the state give us? I'm not saying that it should give us anything. The state, the program of employment, provides that you, as you find a job, you don't take anything from your salary

or they kick you aside. But if we are forced to work, then what is that maintenance that would be 900 euros per employee and moreover a part of each family of 200 euros? It is simply a revenue of citizenship, because due not only to their shortcomings, but also to the technical impossibilities,

because you still go protected, you really struggle to go to work. I personally would have wanted, what would I have wanted? I don't want to see the consequences, but I don't want to see the consequences of the fact that I have to go to work. I personally would have liked to have been given a hand to insert my family into the social-working fabric and then I would have continued to collaborate. I don't want the escort, maybe I should give it to some journalist who needs to show off so much. I know how to die.

I know how to die and I know how to accept my life. And then, I don't want to see I'm not a wolf of a wolf, etc. etc. I don't think anyone would risk so much and invest so much to kill me here

or in the middle of the room. They will try to catch me I make renunciations, I go to to places I shouldn't go, I don't go to many people and I try to survive. When I get the shot, if ever I get it, I have saved my life a thousand times, so I can only say a thousand times thank you for the times you saved me. Then, anyway, the price, I wasn't a saint, I did the crime, I was born there, I was not born there, I do not absorb

completely, even if I did, I have to admit that I did damage and therefore I am also the cause of my things, what I suffer, I do not accept it on strange people who do not matter, who are the children of collaborators, the wives of collaborators, my battle is centered more on the children than the workers we pay the price, the mongrels surprise them it's not that I'm pulling back, I wouldn't want them

but I admit that I too was part of a situation that was all about the money

a sincere answer, since in some of your speeches I felt a bit of optimism do you think that sooner or later Italy will defeat the mafia? Will it be so powerful that it won't be so influential anymore?

Today it seems difficult, but the society, the world has taught us that there are ups and downs. I'm waiting for the favorable wind to come again and I hope that this time the civil society will understand. And that we understand how important it is to be citizens. Because I don't feel like an activist, I feel like a citizen who recognizes what justice is, that I would like it, that I recognize the rights, etc. And that finally, at that moment, when we have the wind in our sails,

we will reach that shoulder, or let's say, those two blows of grace, and in short, we will go and de-empower it. So you believe in it? Of course I believe in it, but remember one thing, the first anti-mafia war, if we want to call it that, it starts from within us,

so I myself have to ask myself every time, but how many criminals have made this lie, I want to do this, and then, after that, there are my children, my wife, my friends, my neighborhood, my city. This is the cultural revolution that must start from here, here is the first battlefield within us, because we all have the evil, we all have a little mafia inside.

Thank you very much for watching this episode.

The investigators describe it as a three-headed mafia system. The investigators describe it as a three-headed mafia system. And so today, since we had more news and we were also able to find the order of the Custodia Cautelare,