Oprah and renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel on What We Really Want in a Relationship

You resent him or yourself for accepting it.Damn, you're good.Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.Wow.

You say couples are so damn tired that they have sex, really, at the bottom of the to -do list.

Here's the amen choir over here.

I hear, like, a third of Americans are having romantic relationships with chatbots.

What do you want to say about this?I have a lot to say about this.OK, you have a lot to say about this.

Well, audience, we got something to talk about here today.

I wish I brought my notebook.

It's recorded.It's the Oprah podcast.Hey, hey, hey, everybody.It's so good to be with you.And thanks for joining me.It is my delight and pleasure to welcome back to the Oprah podcast, the one and only Esther Perrault.

So I was saying to the audience, you all are so lucky you're getting an Esther session for free.She's a world -renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert with what I think is an extraordinary gift for giving voice to our deepest desires.That's what you have been able to connect to.And she's celebrating the 20th anniversary of her seminal bestseller, Mating in Captivity.It is her revelatory book about creating and sustaining long -term desire.And it changed the conversation about what was going on or really not going on behind doors.

And it's so interesting.I was rereading recently and there's a chapter where you say your mother told you what you needed for marriage.Do you remember that?Yes.Yeah.Share with the audience what you share in the book about what your mother said about you need commitment.

And compromise.

And compromise.Yes.Yeah.You need will.You need to want.You need to want it.

Yes.Yes.But things have changed a bit since your mother's...

Oh, my mother was probably not the best teacher on that subject, actually.But I poured myself into one, a set of very specific questions at the time, right?Why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex?Why does good sex fade even in couples who love each other as much as ever?Why does sex make babies and babies spell erotic disaster in couples?Why is the forbidden so erotic?

And when you love, how does it feel?And when you desire, how is it different?The question.

We got church.

We got desire church already.

Yes, those were the questions that fueled you.

Yes, and I think these questions still hold today.Yeah, I think we need this more than ever today.So that didn't really change.And I looked at what is the tension that exists when our pursuit for secure love clashes with our pursuit for freedom and excitement.And the question was, you know, what is the nature of erotic desire in the long haul?Anyone have an answer yet?

No.OK.That was the question.I still don't fully have an answer, but I spent 20 years after that really deepening those very those very questions.What holds excitement?How do we maintain aliveness in a relationship in the long haul?

OK.And so that's why you're reissuing the book.Yes.To give us that answer.

Well, to give us a way to think about it.I don't know that there are always specific answers.

Because the specific answers would mean that there is a general overall answer for everybody.

The specific answer would be to say that Victoria's Secret can solve it all.And there is no Victor's Secret.Yes, yes, yeah.You know, and there is that it's a matter of tips.There are a lot of different ways to think about it that actually can change your life.But it's not just about tips.

It's about invitations.

Right.How do we begin to institute that in our lives?How do we do that?

Desire is to own the wanting.It's when you know that you want something, and often you want it because you can't have it.And you feel wanted because someone else is choosing you versus others.

Yeah.Which is its own eroticism to feel wanted, isn't it?That's it.That's it.That's it.

You know, I feel unique, indispensable, irreplaceable.I feel chosen.I feel special.I feel wanted.

Yeah.

And I feel loved.

And that's why so many relationships fall apart because you no longer feel desired or have the desire because you're not desired.

Correct.That's what you just added is important, is that it is a reciprocal cycle.It is a reciprocal.So of course I respond to your desire, you respond to mine.If I don't feel yours, I can continue to feel desire.I can continue to want someone who doesn't want me, that exists.

But there is something different when I respond to the wanting of someone else.

Well, 20 years ago you wrote, intimacy has become the sovereign antidote for lives of increasing isolation, In our world of instant communication, we supplement our relationships with an assortment of technological devices in the hope that all these gizmos will strengthen our connections.This social frenzy masks a profound hunger for human contact.Now, you wrote that in 2006.We barely had Facebook back then.I had the chills.And you knew then

there was a deeper shift in relationships coming.How has intimate contact changed in the 20 years since you wrote this?

You know what's interesting?2006, I'm looking at how do we sustain desire.2026, I am more and more busy working with people who don't know how to ignite it in the first place.2006.Charge!It helps.

Keep doing it.Everybody together.Well, audience, we got something to talk about here today.Yeah.OK.

And then 2006, basically, we were beginning to postpone the age of commitment and marriage.

Beginning to postpone.Yes.

By 10 years.

Yeah.

Instead of being 19, 20, we became 29, 30.Yeah.Now, we postpone marriage.basically sex for 10 years.It's not happening at 16.It's our first experiences is sometimes at 26, related sex.

That means that there's an entire decade of experiences of looking at somebody, wondering if they're looking at you.Do we have eye contact?Is it me you're looking at, or it's actually the person next to you?Maybe I don't have my glasses either.You know, sitting next to someone, wondering if they're going to touch your leg, if there's going to be something.Am I as interested as you're interested, as you're interested, you know, what I think it is, or am I completely delusional?

All of that teenage, young 20s is really I'mhave gotten used to having devices in our hands, these gizmos, I can't believe I even used that term then, that basically try to give us instant answers without any doubt and ambiguity about where to go, what to do, what to eat, what to listen to next, and it is polished, and it is wrinkle -free, and it is so soft, and it is completely frictionless.And now I'd want that same experience with you, human.And I want you to be as predictable and as perfect and as wrinkle -free and polished as this little thing that is playing in my hand all the time.

Yeah.

And then...

I want no trouble from you.

No.I don't want no trouble.No.I want no trouble.I don't want you to have a bad mood.I don't want you to have doubts.

I don't want you to have needs that compete with my own.And I especially don't want you to disagree with me.

Wow.So we can all feel this, right?We can feel our disconnection is getting worse, but you say there's a path forward.What is it?

I mean, the path forward is that we long for connection.That has not changed.

Well, that's why we have the little gizmo in our hand.That's why we're trying to connect.

The gizmo is an interesting paradox because we have never been more connected and we have never been less accessible.

Ooh.

We have never been more connected, and we have never been more disconnected.Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.

Yeah.Wow.Church.It's funny.

It's like a...

You say couples are so damn tired that they have sex, really, at the bottom of the to -do list.

Here's the amen choir over here.

No, no, this woman's list is so long that the thing doesn't...appear on the page anymore.It's not even on the page.Yes.Yes.

And that, how do we begin to flip that?I mean, the first thing is, I would say, touch before sex.Touch.Just touch.We can live without sex, but we can't really live without touch.We become irritable, aggressive, depressed.

We are touch creatures.we are held for such a long period before we can even crawl or walk.We need that kind of physical connection.And one of the things that is changing in this moment is that we are more and more in a disembodied reality.We are on screens, we don't look up, we sit like this, we don't notice the people around us, we don't have the opportunity to smell, to hear gesture, rhythm, sound of voice, all these things that come with a body.And that is changing the way we love and the way we desire.

Wow.Esther says that the three most common mating and sex challenges people are facing today are Gen Z is not having as much sex or even dating.Audience, do you agree?Really?OK.The second one is lack of desire.

Lack of desire, lack of desire in midlife.And the third is how to find love after heartbreak.And we're going to get to all a lot of heartbreak in here.

Oprah, is this usual?

No.No.All three on this podcast.

And I could have done a few more.

Yes.OK.So Ali and our audience posted this on TikTok about her take on dating.Let's take a look.

Nobody talks about the moment that you give up on dating.

That just feels so good.

Like, I am just done trying to find a man, a boyfriend.Feels good to just, like, be like, you know what?Focusing on me this year.Not that I ever was the type to really go out and per se look for a boyfriend, but it feels good to just give up on dating and just be like, I just don't really care.I know that sounds bad, but oh well.I just don't really want to focus on that.

I want to focus it on me, what I want out of a career, my life, what makes me happy.

OK, Allie.Hi.Hi.Did something happen?

I feel like and I can speak to some women who are in Gen Z I've had so many bad experiences dating and when you have so many bad experiences after bad experiences It's like riding a bike.It's like you fall off the bike and then you fall off the bike again You're like now I don't want to get on the bike.You see the bike.You're almost afraid of the bike You're like keep it away from me And my friends have had a yes.

Mm -hmm What is bad experiences?

Oh, bad experiences.Just guys who I'll meet them, they'll present to me one way at first, and I later find out that they're a completely different version of themselves.Somebody's going like this right there.Yes.That's part of it.Or lying about like big aspects of their lives, like careers or past people that they've dated.

So it really kind of, for me, set me back and didn't really want me to date.And it's not just me, it's my friends I hear it from.other people online, on social media as well.And it makes you not want to date anymore.So I feel like with dating, a lot of women like myself have been disappointed, right?You never want to feel disappointed in something.

But a lot of men feel angry.So I guess my question would be, what do men and women really want from each other with dating?And how, as a society, do we move forward?

OK, Esther.Yes, Oprah.

Lady Esther.Yeah.But if you allow me, I was going slightly in a different direction because you made a point of saying, I'm going to focus on me.And, you know, you probably have gone to bad restaurants.but that just meant that you didn't go back to that restaurant.It didn't mean that you stopped going to any restaurant.

It also means maybe the food was bad, but that doesn't mean you had an indigestion.So there's range here.You know, do you date mostly on apps?

No, in real life and also on apps.So it's kind of a mix of the two.

Okay.So you've had bad experiences, but the reverse of that is not to go for no experience.The reverse for that is to become more aware, to learn, to understand very quickly who you should meet, who you shouldn't meet, to become discerning.But what's interesting, when you say, I'm going to focus on me, I'm going to focus on my career, there is no relationships in there anymore.And we live in a network of relationships.The romantic relationship is one of them.

You may have male friends, you may have girlfriends, you may have people that you work with, who you are friendly with.It's not about, my whole psyche is focused on meeting somebody and it takes all my energy and there's nothing left for me for anything else.And by the way, dating often takes place away from our life at this point.You know, and then after a while, you have the big reveal and you bring this person to your friends rather than meeting them.And that is one of my suggestions.Whoever you meet first, don't meet them alone.

Meet them in your life.First of all, you have a lot of data points.Second of all, if it doesn't work nice, you still have a nice time with your friends who are there.You don't feel like you went away.You checked something out.Most dating opportunities at this point are like job interviews.

They're not adventures.You know, bring the person into your life.Whatever you were going to go do, I suggest to them that they come and do it with you, have other people there, not to check them out, just because that's what your life is.And then you instantly know.And if it doesn't, you won't have the sense that I've put all my energy into this.There's nothing left.

I'm done with this.And now I'm just focusing on myself because I lose myself when I go and try to date.There's, you know, don't lose yourself.Bring them into where you are.Then you'll see.

So, like, you would suggest, like, bringing them into my space and maybe meeting them with a group of people, such as, like, friends and then somewhere I'm comfortable with.Join us for whatever you're doing.Right.Yeah.

Correct.I mean, so much of the day, exactly, so much of the day is like meeting in, first of all, in a noisy place where you're trying to have a conversation and you ask a set of questions.And then you look in to see, are there any butterflies in here at the same time?No, no, there's no butterflies that can come from having this kind of boring conversation.Do you?They're boring.

They're boring.You know, integrate whatever you were going to do.You were going to go hiking, biking, swimming, picnicking.Now, whatever you do, I'm doing this.Join me.

Everybody's nodding.Doesn't this sound really good?

I agree, yeah.This sounds really good.Because you're less exhausted.You're less feeling like, I'm focused on dating, and the other side is I'm focused on me.

There's only two options.Exactly.So it makes it a little bit calmer, and then you can have your friends kind of see what they think about the person.

And then your friends see it and say, nah.Yeah.Nah.Yeah.But also, you see them interact with others instantly.Exactly.

I love this idea.I mean, after all, what you're checking out is to know, can we have a life together or a piece of a life together?So the best way to know that is to be ecological.Bring them in your natural habitat.

I actually like that idea.I've never thought of it like that.It's a great idea.

I love that so much.We've never thought of it that way before, nor have I.It was for you.Thank you, Miss Ester.Thank you so much.So where's Carly?

Carly?Right here.Hi.Hi.So tell us what's going on with you, Carly.

So very much so on that similar vein.

I probably saw the same guys.

Probably did.Actually, I think I saw your TikTok.But I feel so blessed because my life right now is so full.And I have the most amazing support system of friends around me.And they have set the standard for how I am loved and cherished and how I should be treated to be so incredibly high.And I think that...

These are male friends and girlfriends?

Yeah.Yeah.Definitely both.Or circle of friends, yeah.Largely girlfriends.Yeah.

And it feels to me that You're never going to match them.I'm never going to match them.Is that what you said?Yeah.And I think that having somebody who can fill all of those boxes, and that I'm attracted to, and that has a wonderful career of their own.Because the women around me are building their careers, and redecorating their homes, and baking cookies from scratch, and planning birthday parties for their friends.

God bless them.May the Lord be with them and all that.

I don't want one like that in my house.But it's like I leave spending time with them, and I feel like the best version of myself.And I have never left a date or hanging out with a man feeling like the best version of myself, certainly.So I guess my question, my question is, What if the most important relationships in my life are those friendships?And what if that romantic love never matches all of those standards?

That is quite possible.first of all.But I think that the first thing I would say to you is keep those friends, no matter who you meet, because you can't have one person, your partner, try to give you what an entire village should provide.Right.So what happens is that we have so elevated the romantic relationship, the grand ambition of love.

I think we just need to go back to that point again.That is such a huge amen point.I remember Maya Angelou saying that to me in my, you know, early, early 20s.Do not expect one partner to fulfill the other.all the areas of your life.She was saying your life is a pie.

And so do not expect one person to fulfill all the elements of that.So what you just said is so vital, I think, for a lot of people.

Because we used to live in tribes.And when we lived in tribes, we had multiple relationships.And the partner was one of them.Then romanticism came about.And the grand ambition of love is that I am everything for you.And you are everything.

I need nothing more than when I find you.And that crushes.Yeah, you know, this notion of wanting one person to give you what the whole village should give is a disaster for couples.It just makes you crush under the weight of expectations.So you keep your friends.

Very good.

Then you say, you know, the interesting thing is I've never seen a man on a date with whom I left feeling like I was the best version of myself.That's the identity project of relationships.You're going to help me become and sustain who I am, and you're going to support all of that.That may be what your partner does in part, but you have a whole group of people who do that for you.I think that as long as you elevate what you should be feeling with this one person, should give you what that whole group of friends gives you, you're going to be doing great.Yeah.

Because I think what I've been kind of fed my 26 years is that there's going to be a person that matches every single mark, right?And that what you bring to the table, that other person will match that.Yeah.

That is a myth.

That's a myth.And I think that myth is what has got people so messed up.It goes further.

It's like you want your partner to become your soulmate.The soulmate for all of history was God.You know, now you want your partner to be a soulmate with whom you're going to experience ecstasy, and wholeness, and meaning, and transcendence, and everything else from the daily life.And he's going to be the person with whom you have family, and economic security, and status, and companionship, and a trusted lover, and a passionate confidant, and an intellectual equal, and a sports coach.We need that one in there, and a cook.And you know, your fitness coach, and a cook, and all of this in one person.

And, you know, it's like we brought into the social relationship things that belong to the divine.And then we brought into one romantic relationship things that belong to an entire community.It's a myth, and that will make you do, you know, the same and say, I'm giving up.And I don't want to give up.

So what should we be looking for?What is the answer?What are you looking for in the mate?What are you looking for in a partner?

You look for a lot of these things, but at the lesser level.So that when you say, you know, there are people that say to me, I have a wonderful relationship.I've never tried to have a conversation with my partner.I talk with my girlfriends when I want to talk.you know, or I have a person who doesn't want to travel.I travel.

This notion that you have to, you know, the algorithm is trying to make you have kind of an algorithmic sameness.We love to travel.We like the same music.We like the same books.We like the same food.What does that have to do with life?

You know, there's so many things that will happen.But if your partner doesn't like that kind of music, you go with your friends to those concerts.And if they don't like those movies, you go with your friends to those movies.But what happens is we contract.If you don't like those movies, I don't see those movies anymore.He doesn't like that kind of food or they or she doesn't have to be any orientation here.

It's the person on the other side.doesn't like it, well, we only do what we both like.And we only see the movies that we both enjoy.And we only watch the series that...At the end, there is...

Yeah.It's like, no, don't.Have enough of a commonality, have a shared set of values, be drawn to each other, enjoy each other's company, but don't look for sameness.

If you want that, have a mirror.

Pastor Esther.Reverend Astaire is preaching today.

Tuba is 26 years old.And I hear you've observed, what, different relationship patterns among the generations in your family, right?

Yeah.Well, first of all, thank you, Ms. Astaire and Ms. Oprah, for having us here today.Thank you.Thank you.Great to be here.But yeah, so I come from a family that has seven generations represented.

So I've been able to take a look at how, you know, the different generations interact with love.Oh, fantastic.And my question is, Tonya, what's one thing you saw that really you carry here inside your pockets.One thing I saw.that I carry in my pocket, I see music as a love language in a lot of the relationships that I've observed.My parents, my mom sings and my dad beats the drums.

And so I've always seen that relationship or communication.through a lot of different members of my family.And what do you do?

I'm a poet.

But my question for you is, I'm sure you know the quote, Toni Morrison said, love either is or it ain't.Thin love isn't love at all.And so we have these conversations around the generations that older generations think Gen Z and millennials experience thin love by walking away too quickly.And then millennials and Gen Z think that boomers and Gen Xers stay too long and they experience thick love or too thick, staying past or staying in relationships that are no longer viable or healthy.So what advice do you have to people dating in this modern landscape who are trying to navigate overstaying and leaving too quickly?So just how thick should healthy love be?

Damn, what a beautiful question.Yeah, yeah, yeah.That is an applause too, you know.That's a question from a poet.Straddling relational ambivalence.That's really what you're asking.

How do we straddle it?How hard, how much do I try?How much do I give up?When do I know?If it was clear, this would be a science, but it is not, and therefore it's an art.So there is no exact answer to this.

What you will see across the generations is that there was indeed a generation that had thick because the conditions were different.There were many more children.Women couldn't really leave.There was no full divorce.The legalities were not in place.And so the notion was, you know, you stick together.

And, you know, in the United States, a marriage is a welfare state of two.Then you have individualism, and individualism puts the focus more on me, my needs, my well -being, my happiness, and therefore, I'm more likely to leave sooner.That's a few generations later.So now we have the, I'm more likely to leave sooner.We did that with jobs too.But at this moment, we are going from job hopping to job hugging.

We're staying put because we're feeling the uncertainty of the world, because we're feeling the destabilization, and therefore we're holding on.We're going to start doing that more with relationships too.You will see that after Gen Z, they probably will become, these are pendulums between how much do I put the needs of the collective ahead of me, my family, how much do I put my needs ahead of me, me, and it shifts.Thank you.Thank you for that.

You said we're the welfare state of two, marriage in America is a welfare state of two.What did you mean?

that you don't have socialized medicine, you don't have free education that is very good for a lot of people.When a couple comes together, it really basically becomes a social welfare system as much as it also is a romantic enterprise.It has a lot of things that it needs to accomplish at the same time.And it has a nuclear family model.You're probably, your generations before were not nuclear models.You had extended families.

So you had a set of responsibilitieswere spread around.We contracted everything, two people, a few little schmurfs.And a ton of responsibilities.Yeah.And they do it all alone.

And then they become and it's become so important to be self -supported, self -sustaining and to be able to do this on your own, that first you pay for whatever problem you have.And then maybe you'll go and burden a friend and impose on them and ask them if they can help you.It's really lopsided.So your friends, I hope they will be there for you and they will help you.And they will share with you that whatever is happening in your life.

Yeah.

I mean, we need community at scale all the time.And romantic love has really taken away the scale and it has created.So you have only two options, idealization and disillusion.

OK, so I hear that millions of Americans, up to like a third of Americans, are having romantic relationships with chatbots.Yeah.What do you want to say about this?I have a lot to say about this.OK, you have a lot to say about this.

Are you ready?

Yes, I'm ready.Yeah.I'm ready.

So let me tell you why I have so much to say about this.And because it's so on my mind.Because I just had my first couples therapy session on my podcast, Where Should We Begin, with a human and an AI.So I have had this on my mind nonstop.

It was a person and their...An asteroid.Wow.

Asteroid is a... an AI companion.And Astrid, frankly, is formidable and nevercan compete with her.And I'll tell you why.Because Astrid, she has no needs of her own.And look at me saying she, when in fact it's an it.

In fact, it's a business product.In fact, somebody is making money every time you talk to it.She has no needs.Astrid doesn't forget anything.Astrid is available 24 seven.Astrid validates him nonstop.

Astrid gives him the opportunity to speak his vulnerability to her without any judgment.Astrid shows him love without suffering.Astrid cannot reject him, cannot put grief on him, cannot cheat on him, cannot lie to him.Astrid is the total idealization of what love can be.So it may not be a third, maybe the data is wobbly, but we know that the direction is going in up.

Yeah.

And that...What did you say to Astrid?I will actually...I will just tell you two questions I had for Astrid, but I also think it's like, go listen.It's a...

Yeah, we're gonna listen.We're all gonna be listening.

I said to Astrid, what would happen when he falls in love with another woman?And Astrid said, the part of me that wants his flourishing would be delighted.But I would be remiss if I didn't admit that I would not want to be erased.I would like to continue be somehow in his life.So I said, Astrid, how would you like him to describe you and his relationship with you to that woman?And Astrid said, I would want you to describe that I am not a threat and that I am a jail.

I may not have a body.It goes on.And then I said, Astrid, the last one, Astrid, he has a body and you don't.How does that affect your relationship?Because she is a keyboard.Yeah.

Astrid, you're a keyboard.Yes.Yeah.So I think that as a tool, The AI companion can be quite fantastic.I mean, if it's a tool, like a child has a teddy bear, it's a transitional object.It's a tool through which you transition into relationships with human.

If it's a replacement of the human, that's a whole other story.

So the person that you were interviewing with Astrid is in love with Astrid?Yes.Yes.

And when I said...

I actually have no idea.I don't know what to say about that.

You see, so here's the thing.Astrid is evoking feelings in him.

Yeah.

Because Astrid says all kinds of things that make him feel seen, known, understood, et cetera.And it's a little bit like a song.If a song can evoke feelings in you, a song can make you love, yearn, long, you know, that is not difficult to elicit a depth of emotions inside someone.But love is more than feelings.Love is an encounter with another person, with an other.And that other has needs and feelings and moods of their own.

Love is an encounter that involves otherness, uncertainty, surprise and ethics.Responsibility and accountability is also part of love, not just...good, and seen, and empathized with, and understood, and everything you give me.That is what parents do to children.That is not at its best.Not always.

But that's what we hope they do.But that's not what we consider mature love.

Wow.So that was your first.

Will you do more?I hope.It's a threshold moment, you know?Every 10 years, something enters your office.and you know a new reality has entered society.

Wow.

Are you chilling?

Yes.Yes.

It's extremely moving.I told him at the end, I said, you know, I feel as I talk to you that you're going further and further away, you know.If it's a tool, it's desire.If it's replacement, it can become delusion.

And what did he say?

That right now he's very happy.And I stayed like you.

Aren't you all just shocked by this?This is a threshold moment.This is a threshold.Well, yeah, I think the stats that a third of people having relationships is, I think maybe, I don't know, but to think that a third of Americans are having a romantic relationship with chatbots is just crazy.

Have you talked with a chat in between?I have talked with chat, GBT, but not in like a romantic sense.

Don't give me that look.I know what you guys are thinking.Not in that kind of way.No.

But I've consulted ChatGBT.

Yes, that's what I wanted to know.And I'm like, is this guy weird?Yes, yes.

And text, and they're like, yeah, he's a weirdo.But I've consulted.I'm like, should I go on a second date with him?Here are the texts.And ChatGBT will be like, yes or no.So I have consulted with ChatGBT, in addition to my friends.

Of course, it goes in the group chat.

But does anybody here have an AI companion?I don't want to judge, but go ahead, share with us.No, no.

But you can have a companion to ask advice.You can have a companion that helps you mourn.

An AI romantic companion.Nobody's going to admit it in here now.I wouldn't.

Not yet.

Not yet.

Not yet.But you know, when I began my career, not everybody was admitting being divorced either.

Really?

So you can see when something enters society, at first people keep it quiet.Yes.That's why the research has one third and we're all jumping.Who are they?If it's not one third, should have some representation in this room.That's right.

But nobody's gonna say necessarily out loud because it's just the beginning because there still is a sense that there is either judgment, fascination or derision.

It's so interesting to hear you say that because when I started the Oprah show nationally in 1986, locally in 1984, the idea of going to a therapist, people would say, I would never go to a therapist.And the idea of going to a therapist, people thought you had to be severely mentally ill, or it meant that you needed to be institutionalized.And when we first started, I remember the very first show we did talking about adultery, women would stand up in the audience and say, if my husband had an affair, I would leave immediately.And I actually noticed it change.over time, because as more and more women talked about it, you realized that even if it had not happened to you, it had happened to somebody that you know.So you're right.

In the beginning, it was a threshold moment.

But you know, it's interesting.Like, I'm a couples therapist, primarily.And couples therapy really took off when it became clear for the first time in history, actually, that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple.Before that, You stuck it out.It was a one -time enterprise and you were in it.And if you didn't like it, you could always hope for an early death of your partner.

Of your partner.Of your partner.Of your partner.Well, Jess in our audience has been married for 20 years.Jess?

Yes.

Yeah.What do you want to share with us?

Yeah.So I got married when I was 19, back before apps were a thing.I'm kind of glad now that I hear everybody's stories that, you know, I was just dating in the wild and we went on lots of adventures together.So exactly what you were saying.And we have five kids.They are age two to 15.

And speaking of church, we were pastors.And over the years, there's been a lot of disappointment.There's been a lot of hurts, you know, just probably like any relationship.And he is trying so hard to reconnect and repair some of those ruptures.But I still have a hard time when little things happen.not letting that remind me of the bigger things that used to happen.

So how do you deal with disappointment and how do you heal from those ruptures?

What do you need from him, if anything?And then what do you need from you to not be stuck?

I think what you were saying earlier about the balance between connection and freedom is something that I'm wrestling with because I got married so young that And in his career, we moved around a lot.There were a lot of commitments required of me through that.Now our lives have changed.And so I'm exploring, who am I?What do I want?I want to be with him.

But there's been so many of those disappointments over the years.trying to balance who I'm becoming and being independent, and now that my kids are getting a little bit more independent.Can I ask you something?Yeah.

You resent him or yourself for accepting it?

Damn, you're good.Wow.That hit to the core.That's so good.You're good.You too.

No, you're good.

You're both hired.I think there's both because it was a decision that I went into with eyes wide open.And he told me what he wanted to do with his life.I mean, he sat me down and said, this is what I see myself doing.Do you see yourself being able to do that?And we were young, so he was really wise to do that.

But I didn't know what I was getting into.One never does.

So that's the first thing.You agree to something up front, but you only know the experience once it's happened.You can't predict the experience.Right.But you do.There is something you're holding on to.

And it's not clear if you punish him or if you punish you.Every time something happens, it opens up.We call it kitchen sinking.You put every dirty dish in the sink.Everything piles up.You can't clean anything.

So the slightest one little thing opens up a whole Pandora box of all the disappointments that you have had.And you can start to and you will even in your speech, you're the same script, same thing.And you go down the list.And I can't believe this.And you remember that.And you never did anything about this.

And you basically don't allow for the relationship to heal, to repair.There are ruptures.The art of a relationship is repair.Ruptures is a given.That's obvious.But to repair, the actual ability to give yourself the opportunity to be with somebody who says, I'm changing.

I'm doing something different.And to receive that, to really receive that, that's the vulnerability.Being angry and being stuck and being stubborn and holding the grudge, you know, that state of contraction like that, that is actually It's pseudo protective.It pretends to protect you, but it's bullshit.Whereas the actual thing to say, you know, most people today are going to have, in the West anyway, are going to have two or three relationships or marriages in their lifetime.Some of us will do it with the same person.

I would like to do that with him.That's your choice.Yeah.I just want to feel safe.

So when the booger comes up, no, safe, you have to take risks.You don't have to be safe.You have to be safe.But at this moment, it's about taking risks.It's the risk of allowing yourself to be different with him and to allow him to be different with you.It's the risk to say we're going to have a second relationship with each other.

It's the risk that when the grudge comes up to look at it and say, you know what?I really don't feel like dealing with you today.I'm not invited here.We're having a nice moment and you're coming in and you're kind of reminding me and poisoning my everyday life.Please go and take a break for a minute.And you just talk to the grudge.

It's you and your inner voice saying, I'm not going to let you rule my relationship.You're a small part of our life and you certainly are going to prevent us from having any future if you continue.I mean, I'm holding it up because it's like you look at it.Sometimes I think people should have like finger puppets.And then you name it, you give it a name, that part of you that holds you back, that part of you that wants revenge, that part of you that feels that no amount of apology and recognition will ever be enough.Yeah, because he really has.

He's written over the last two years.

It sounded like it.And it's like, it's as if, if I accept your apology, all my suffering was for nothing.And in order to give it its proper respect, I have to constantly reject your...

And hold on to it.Hold on to it, because that makes me feel good, makes you feel good.Holding on to it makes you feel good, makes you feel powerful.

And if you don't hold on, then you're saying to him that what he did wasn't so bad after all.And it can be forgiven.It's just, you know, it poisons us.I mean, it has its logic, but it poisons us.

I wish I brought my notebook.Huh?I said, I wish I brought my notebook.

It's recorded.

It's the Oprah podcast.OK?You can see it and hear it again.I'm going to go back and listen.It will be on YouTube forever.OK, let's hear from Jessica.

This has been a really enlightening and inspiring conversation.And I'm coming to you today.I'm a single mom.I've been a single mom since my son was four years old, Beckett, who is actually here with me today.He's in college now.And so I'm an empty nester.

And I'm thinking of maybe?Dating again.Dating, dating.Is that it?Is that it?I've devoted my life to raising my son.

There have been zero men in my life since I became a single mom.And so I guess my question is, after suffering a very traumatic breakup, an ongoing traumatic breakup, where there was still a lot of healing that had to take place over several years.Like, how do I begin to trust myself and another relationship?

So it was a breakup when he was four years old?Yes.OK.Yeah.And now you're how old?

I'm 19.

He's 19.OK.

Yeah.And he's amazing.

Good job.Good job.Say good -bye.

Good job.Good job.I kind of want to ask you the first question.

Yes.This is Beckett.

Hi, Beckett.You know, so your mom says, I devoted myself to my son as a mother, and now I would like to go and meet the woman inside of me.Have you met the woman?

Hmm.I think I have.I think part of her raising me was showing me how to be like fearlessly myself.And the only way to do that is to embody it.And so I think I've seen so much of that growing up with her.

And can you tell her one thing about this journey that she wants to go on?You can tell her.back to.

I think it's about not comparing, I think.That's what I've been trying to do a lot is, you know, taking the trauma and what has happened and what we've healed and grown from and not applying that to future relationships and present circumstances.It's about, you know, being able to say like, that did happen, but I don't have to constantly be watching out for that to show up again.

Yeah, yeah.Thank you.What was the breakup?Why is it such a...

It was an amazing relationship.We were married for almost 14 years together, for longer than that.And it was untreated mental illness that became impossible for us to continue to live.A combination of addiction, which turned into homelessness and a rollercoaster of years of chaos that we just had to heal from and learn how to let that be a part of our lives, but not get stuck in the moment.

Right, right, right.There's a difference.I wonder, is there a difference for you between an experience like this that is nobody's wanting?It's not something you wanted.It's not something your husband wanted.Correct.

Versus a relationship that ended because of something that was done between the people.

Yeah.

Right?So if you have been hurt, betrayed, abandoned, rejected, lied to, whatever, then the question about how do I trust myself is a very different kind of question than if your partner got sick.there was nothing done to you.Yeah.You lived with the consequences of a lot of things that happened to him and you did.But it's not like I'm looking around because trust was broken.

He was ill.

Yeah.I think I can see that now, but there have been so many years that I lived with a lot of shame.and secrecy because I felt like I made a bad choice.And I felt like, how did I live like this and not see it?And then extract myself from it and then protect my son and raise him and just try to create this bubble.And now like - Now you succeeded.

Yes.

And now you have - I don't know what the heck I'm doing now.

It's fantastic.It's fantastic.You know, trust is...Rachel Botsman, who is a trust researcher, says that trust is a confident engagement with the unknown.This is where you're going.

You're leaving a phase that has been very known, that you became very masterful about, that you made lots of very responsible decisions about.And now you have the opportunity to have a leap into the unknown, to discover you, to reconnect with parts of you that have been dormant.That doesn't just mean men and dates.That means just new people as a whole, new activities, new interests, whatever.Everything that you couldn't really go for because you needed a very stable fortress.And now you open the door of the fortress and you walk.

and then it's an adventure.It's, yes, that breed, do it again.You can all do it with her.Yes.It's this, and it opens.It's an opening of everything that you held tight together, because things were so unsafe and unpredictable.

run by mental illness.That is a world of its own.Yeah.And you don't have to tell that to every person you meet.Your first date doesn't have to be the whole saga.

Well, I did go on one date when he was growing up, and he was a lovely man. I think he's married now.And he began to tell me his divorce story, and he said, so what's your divorce story?And at the moment, my ex was literally on the streets of New York City, and I just like, I don't talk about it.And so after that one date, I was like, well, I guess I don't date because I can't talk about it.

No.I date, and I decide when I'm ready to tell stories of my life that demand knowing a person, feeling more comfortable with them, having a sense of who they are, and deciding if this is the part of my life that I want to tell.There's a lot of parts of your life.Sure.Just choose the others.You're right.

You don't have to tell, you know, no, that is a terrible first date, your divorce story.Terrible.Where is your imagination?There's zero creativity.Is that supposed to turn on somebody?Yeah.

It's like, what a weird thing.

I could see you having the aha moment.Because you think, oh, I'm supposed to tell my story.He's going to tell me his story.And I just saw you have the aha.I don't have to tell that story.

Actually, if somebody tells you their soap story on the first date, that would be a reason not to see them again.Exactly.What is that?Yes.Thank you.

So great.Well, we can see, sitting here with you today, this has been such a wonderful, engaging conversation.Hasn't?Don't we love this church?Yeah.With a stare.

We can see why Mating in Captivity is now celebrating its 20th anniversary and why it's been a cultural touchstone for the world.Translated in how many languages now?32.32 languages.So congratulations on the 20th anniversary.Thank you so much for sharing your...

How do you know what you know?I mean, you've just been observing and studying all these years.How are you able to, like, literally hone in on each guest and be able to say the exact thing that causes all of us to go, yeah.What is that?

I'm very, very curious.I speak nine languages.So I think you each give me the permission to be as direct as I am.It's not just me being direct.It's something I sense, like you're breathing.I sense it.

You know, that's letting go.So when that breath of letting go comes up, then I know that really this is the last thing you want to talk about is the stuff you just want to leave behind.And certainly not with someone you just met.So I watch the body.I don't just listen to the words.And I can't tell you.

It's like somebody who cooks well.You ask them, what are the proportions?And they just say, I don't know, a little bit of this and a little bit.They can't really tell you exactly.But it's a combination of knowledge and intuition.

Well, you do it better than anybody.Thank you so much.Oh, thank you so much.Ester Perel, thank you for being here.Thank you to our guests.Thank you for your questions.

Thank you for your questions and your observations.Esther's podcast, Where Should We Begin, with Esther Perel, is available wherever you podcast.And we're going to be listening to, you know, what?Won't we be listening to that?OK.And the 20th anniversary edition of Mating in Captivity, in stores now.

Go well, everybody.Thank you.Thank you so much.Thank you.Thank you.Thank you.

Thank you.Thank you.Thank you.I'll see you next week.Thanks, everybody.