Oprah & Will Guidara, The Remarkable Power of Giving People More Than They Expect

This episode of the Oprah podcast is presented by Walmart.

I ran outside of the hot dog cart, bought a hot dog, ran back into the kitchen, then came the hard part, convincing my chef to serve it. And then before their final savory course, I brought out what we in New York call a dirty water dog to the table. And they freaked out. Hi there.

It's great to be with you all here on the Oprah podcast. We are stepping out of my tea house for a little change of pace. We're in New York City.

New York City.

With an audience of our listeners, it is so fun to be with you all. I'm so glad you're enjoying the podcast. People stop me on the street and tell me about it. I talk to a lot of people and sometimes when I interview really smart or successful people, I will ask them this question. What is the book that you think everybody should be reading?

A book that we can actually learn from. Because I still love learning new things and sharing the lessons that I learned with all of you all. So when I asked that question recently, the same book kept coming up.

Your book, Will!

Your book!

Thank you.

So I did a podcast recently with Melody Hobson and I said, what is the book? And she said, well, have you read Unreasonable Hospitality? I said, no, I haven't read it. Then I asked that question. David Brooks said, he read Unreasonable Hospitality. Someone else said, I go, what is this Unreasonable Hospitality? Well, this is what it is. The book, Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guderia. Now, if you're a foodie, you know about Will

and 11 Madison Park. Those of you who were here in New York. Oh, you go, oh, that Will, okay. It's the three Michelin star restaurant that he ran here in New York. With Will at the helm,

11 Madison Park rose to be named the best restaurant, not just in New York City, but in the world. The best restaurant in the world. And Will says that the secret sauce wasn't just an extraordinary dining experience, it was what he calls the selfish pleasure of creating profound moments of connection

and delight for their guests. So welcome Will Godera!

Thank you. Thank you, Ray.

Will Godera's New York Times bestseller, Unreasonable Hospitality, has sold over one million copies. You say here on page 99, without exception, no matter what you do, you can make a difference in someone's life. You sound like Maya Angelou. In the book, Will shares his abiding philosophy that

living in service to others can transform your work, your business, and your life. You must be able to name for yourself why your work matters. Doesn't that resonate with you all? It's a lesson he learned as general manager

of New York's legendary 11 Madison Park, when it was named the number one restaurant in the world.

By the way, that's so freaking cool.

I love it that you start the book with this story that I, the scene of you and your partner, Daniel Holm. You're sitting at the 2010 World's Best, 50 Best Restaurants event, and it's in London. It's like the Olympics for restaurants, or the Oscars, right? And you all are doing what people do, like, do you think we're gonna come in,

how are we gonna place? And you thought you were gonna place what?

Like 35.

35, out of 50.

And an expression of humility, but also confidence, right? It was our first year on the list.

Right. And then your partner said, no 40.

Yeah, something like that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So picture this. It's got to be exciting to get the call though, right? That you're one of the 50 best restaurants in the world.

Yeah.

That's pretty good.

Yeah. I think everyone has one of these moments, right? Those that they can recall with extreme detail because they were that profound in their story. And I remember getting the letter, inviting us to London and celebrating that we were on that list.

And so of course we went. Yeah. Now the awards, they're a lot like the Oscars. Okay, you're in this larger than life auditorium surrounded by your heroes in your fanciest tuxedo the whole nine. But different from the Oscars in one notable way, at the Oscars I'd imagine when you're nominated

for an award, once they get to your category, you're desperate that they call your name. Here, if you're in the room, you already know you're one of the best, the 50 best.

You just don't know where on the list you fall. Well, I think that too about the Oscars. Everyone in here is great because you're nominated. Yeah.

Like, and there's just five people in your category. But at those awards, you're desperate that they call your name. Yes. Here, they start at 50, they slowly count down to one. Here, you're desperate that they do not call your name for as long as humanly possible.

And I remember I'm all fired up. And then the big British emcee at the front of the room, he says, all right, ladies and gentlemen, it's time to start the countdown at number 50, a new entry from New York City, 11 Madison Park. I was like, gosh darn it. Turns out where you're seated has nothing to do with where you place. We'd come literally in last place. And. And you did you realize at the time your face is up on the screen? Yeah.

So you all didn't have that, oh, it's fine.

Yeah. That you lost.

Exactly. Everyone else knew to at least pretend to smile and wave. Guys, I looked like I'd just gotten kicked in the groin. One of my dad's favorite quotes that I cherish and reference often is adversity is a terrible thing to waste. And that night, we were one of the 50 best in the world, but in that room we were last. And I was angry, frustrated, sad,

but now I look back on that last place finish with gratitude because I don't believe we would have gone on to do what we did next had it not been for that dose of disappointment.

So you and your partner left, and I think one of the other chefs saw you and started, you know, chuckling when he saw you. He's like, oh gosh, you guys didn't take that so well. And then you guys went and got a bottle of bourbon.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As one does.

As one does. And during the process of drinking the bourbon and talking about why you came in last place,

something happened. Yeah, we went through all the stages of grief, but ultimately landing on acceptance, because here's the deal. At that point, our food was pretty extraordinary. Our service was about as close to technically perfect as possible.

The dining room was amazing. And it was for those reasons that we were on that list. But when we paused for long enough to really think about it, it became quite clear we had not done anything impactful. And I think, listen, it's absurd to say one restaurant is the best in the world. When you earn the top spot on that list, what it really means is you are a restaurant making

an impact. And so I thought about the restaurants that had been number one. They were all run by chefs. Chefs who were unreasonable in pursuit of the food they were serving, their product, and relentless in pursuit of innovation. What new ingredients could they cook with? What new techniques could they develop?

And each of them in their own way has influenced how restaurants around the world approach cooking. That night I wrote on a cocktail napkin, we will be number one in the world. But a goal without a strategy, that's nothing more than a pipe dream.

And so I thought about those chefs, if they were unreasonable in pursuit of product and relentless in pursuit of change, we were gonna be unreasonable in pursuit of people and relentless in pursuit of the one thing that will never change, we were going to be unreasonable in pursuit of people and relentless in pursuit of the one thing that will never change, which is our human desire to feel seen, to feel cared for.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so that's when I wrote Unreasonable Hospitality.

So you wrote this on a napkin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

After a lot of bourbon, but it turned out to be a book.

Yeah.

It's something very meaningful. Let's share with our audience this moment. You were 12 years old, and your dad took you to Four Seasons. Because I always love how a seed is planted, you know? And all of us, you know, start out as little acorns and blossom into our own version of the oak tree. And this happened with you the first time

your dad took you to the Four Seasons restaurant here in New York. Tell us about that.

Well, so I grew up in hospitality. My dad was a restaurateur. My mom was a flight attendant with American Airlines. And it's just all I've known. But when I was a little kid, my mom was diagnosed with brain cancer. And the radiation treatments she received ultimately rendered her to becoming a quadriplegic. And gosh, my dad, he is just amazing. I mean, watching him work restaurant hours, watching him be a good dad to me, watching him care for her, he was my hero. And it honestly did

not matter. When you say restaurant hours, explain that to the rest of the

audience who doesn't know.

DAVID KUZNICK Yeah, for people who don't know, restaurateurs work a tremendous number of hours. Like 14, 15 hours a day. It didn't matter what he did for a living. That's what I would have wanted to do. But it just so happened I started falling in love with it by going to work with him. And when I was 12, he said, hey, if you really wanna do this, you need to experience the best. And so he took me to the Four Seasons for dinner. And I honestly don't remember a ton about that night.

I remember the blazer. I made him get me that Brooks Brothers blazer with the gold buttons.

Yeah.

I remember it was the first time in my life that I dropped a napkin and someone gave me a new one and called me sir. I remember they carved a duck for us table side, but what I really remember was how they made us feel. Because for whatever it was, a couple hours that I was there across that table from this man who meant everything to me,

the entire world was put on pause. And I felt so very connected to him. And it was the first time I realized firsthand the extent to which through hospitality, whether it's in restaurants or any industry, you can create magic for people.

OPRAH WINFREY Yeah.

DAVID KELLY And literally at that age, I knew that's what I wanted to do with my life.

OPRAH WINFREY Well, you know, I loved reading this book, and one of the reasons I appreciated it so much is because it reminded me of our years on The Oprah Show with my team, the producers, best team in television. And this is the way we viewed our audience, as though our audience were guests who were coming to see us, and the experience from the toilet paper in the bathroom,

being rolled under and not over, and everything being like you were coming to visit us, and this is our welcome to you, to be a part of our conversation, our family of conversation in that moment.

Well, you introduced surprise and delight into a world that was not accustomed to receiving it.

Yeah, well, that's what Favorite Things was all about. Surprise and delight. And I know a lot of people who were in those audiences for Favorite Things, everybody wanted to be in there to get the stuff. You don't remember the stuff,

but you remember the moment. You remember the surprise and you remember the delight.

It's the quote by Maya Angelou. Yes. People will forget what you say, they will forget what you do, but they will never forget how you made them feel. Yes. And I think that is, in a nutshell, hospitality and what we all have an opportunity to give to everyone around us every single day.

Yeah. You know, actually, in the book, you say this quote by Maya Angelou that probably wasn't even her quote. I will tell you that actually is her quote.

Okay.

I remember sitting at the table when she first said that, and I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna write that down, Maya.

Yeah, so that really-

By the way, that's so freaking cool. I mean, that's just amazing.

Yeah.

You know, another great one she said, she gave me when I came back from opening my school in South Africa and she had had a cold and wasn't able to come and I flew from South Africa directly to her house to check on her and also to tell her about the whole experience of opening my school. This is in 2007. And she was making biscuits. And I said, Maya, oh my God, that school,

it was just the greatest experience. Nelson Mandela was there, and these girls are gonna be my greatest legacy. And she said, you have no idea what your legacy will be. And I said, yeah, well, I do.

I think these girls, this school is gonna be my greatest legacy. And she put the dough down and she said, I said, you have no idea what your legacy will be because your legacy is never one thing. She said, your legacy is every life you touch.

Mm.

So it's everybody who has ever watched a show.

They almost started clapping. I think that's like...

I... Yeah, she said... So it's everybody who has ever watched a show. They almost started clapping. I think that's like... I think... I think...

I think...

Yeah, she said... In that moment, she said, it's never one, it's not one thing. It's everybody who ever watched a show and decided to go back to school because of something they heard.

Or decided they were gonna get a divorce because they were in abusive relations. It's every life, it's every person who you've ever left a heart print with.

By the way, is all about what I wrote about. Exactly. I mean, it is perfectly aligned.

That's why it resonated so profoundly with me.

Because I think that we underestimate dramatically the impact we have on other people all day, every single day, and we don't understand that outsized

and asymmetrical. And that's what unreasonable hospitality is about. Just like we've been hearing from Will Gudera, our friends at Walmart are dedicated to over-delivering for their customers, especially when it comes to giving gifts this holiday season.

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With Walmart Express Delivery, you can have gifts delivered to your door as fast as an hour. How great is that? Walmart. Who knew? Shop great gifts at Walmart.com or on the Walmart app. Okay, so let's start with the story of the family who comes in. They're on their way back to Europe.

This is their last restaurant they're visiting in New York. And you overhear them say...

Yes. So I'm in the dining room, clearing dirty plates at this table. And it was a table of four. They were foodies. On vacation to New York just to eat at great restaurants. And this is their last meal. They're literally going straight to the airport. And they're raving about their trip. They'd been to Le Bernardin, and Jean Georges, and Danielle,

and Per Se, and if everyone in this room doesn't know what those restaurants are, just trust in how fancy they sound.

They're the good ones.

Yes, Daniel.

And now Eleven Madison Park, trip of a lifetime. But then one woman jumps in and said, yeah, but you know what we never got to have was a New York City hot dog. And it was one of those light bulb moments. And I dropped off the plates,

ran outside of the hot dog cart, bought a hot dog, ran back into the kitchen. Then came the hard part, convincing my chef to serve it. But I asked him to trust me and eventually he cut it up into four perfect pieces, putting one on each plate with a little swish of ketchup, one of mustard, a cannella of sauerkraut, a little scoop of relish. And I think he topped it off with like a micro herb to make it look fancy. And then before their final savory course, which at the time was our honey lavender glazed Muscovy duck that had been dry aged for two weeks,

I brought out what we in New York call a dirty water dog to the table. And I explained it, I said, hey, I overheard you talking. We could not let you go home with any regrets. Here's that New York City hot dog.

And they freaked out. I've been working in restaurants my entire life. I'd served tens of millions of dollars worth of wagyu beef and lobster and caviar, and yet I can confidently say that I had never seen anyone react to anything I'd served them like they did to that hot dog. To that hot dog, yes.

And I think in moments like that, you need to go back to the tapes, see what you did well to make sure you keep on doing that thing. That's how you put intention to intuition.

Well, you know, intention, I live by that. That's my principle. And you learned that from your father. I learned that from a thought leader that I had on in like 1989, Gary Zukav writes about it in See the Soul, whole chapter on intention,

how it's one with cause and effect and intention is what determines the outcome. So tell us your experience of learning intention, that principle from your father.

Yeah, I mean, when you think about what my dad did, working 15 hours a day, being a good dad to me, taking care of a handicapped wife, it required an unbelievable level of intentionality. Every move mattered. Every decision counted. Nothing could just be happenstance. And because he was so intentional, not only in managing his time, but in pursuing the relationships that mattered most to him, he was able to thrive in all three of

those roles. And I mean, I think unreasonable hospitality happens at the intersection of intention and creativity. And I learned the intention part definitively from him.

So unreasonable hospitality is really about going the extra extra extra mile and being conscious of that paying attention. Yeah to how you use service in a way that really

Alters an experience for a person. Yeah, I think I mean, I think it requires three things fundamentally one Just being present, which I define as caring so much about the one person in front of you that you stop caring about everything else you need to do. And these days with phones in our pockets as perpetual distractions, it's really hard even for the best of us to do well. And yet, one of the most powerful things is learning that we need to slow

down in order to speed up.

Yeah, you write that in unreasonable hospitality, that there is nobility in service. Can you expand on that? Because I think a lot of people don't get that there's nobility.

Yeah. Well, I mean, when I was a kid, most of the people my age, they were being strongly encouraged to be doctors or lawyers and bankers. No one wanted their kid to go and serve other people. That was almost like putting yourself below others. And yet, gosh, I think there is no ability and service. I think, by the way, just naming the importance of your work is a valuable exercise for everyone because I don't care how much you love your job,

sometimes work stinks. And if you don't know that you're making an impact, it's hard to bring your fully realized self to the table. And so in hospitality and service, gosh, what happened with me and my dad at Four Seasons, we have the ability to help people celebrate

—Ha! Ha! Ha! —-Ha! Ha! Ha! You must be able to name for yourself why your work matters. Doesn't that resonate with you all? You must be able to name for yourself. And if you're a leader, you need to encourage everyone on your team to do the same.

Why must you be able to name for yourself why it matters? Because I think if you're simply repeating back words that someone else has given you, they cannot fully be your own. I think people need to pause for long enough to think about what they do and identify all the many people they can impact so beautifully through that work. Because once you have, I just think that's when you are fully called to greatness.

OPRAH WINFREY Called to greatness. You actually were inspired by greatness early on.

DAVID KELLY Yes.

OPRAH WINFREY When you were at Cornell.

DAVID KELLY Yes.

OPRAH WINFREY And there was a program there called Guest Chefs.

DAVID KELLY Yes.

OPRAH WINFREY And Daniel Balloud was- Daniel Balud came as a guest chef. And he was one of those people that you, you know, admired and the whole world knew. And how did you get him to come

there? Well, so I was not responsible for getting him there, but I was one of the students in the class that ended up serving him when he was there. And we had an amazing time, which maybe we'll unpack that in a little bit. But I was nobody. Danielle had no reason to care about me.

Except...

So explain this. You're at Cornell. Cornell has a guest chef program where they bring in a guest chef. Yes. And the guest chef comes in and he cooks a meal.

And the students run the restaurant around him and you serve paying guests. And it's a great exercise to actually learn what it's like to properly run a restaurant. And we had an amazing dinner, and Danielle and I really ended up bonding that weekend. To the point that he invited me to go to his restaurant, Danielle, in New York City one day.

My mother was not supposed to live past me being like 12. his restaurant, Danielle, in New York City one day. My mother was not supposed to live past me being like 12.

And yet, she kept on living. She was so focused on seeing me graduate college that she lived seven years longer than any doctor said she would. But she did pass literally the day after I graduated college. And I was going to Spain that summer for-

OPRAH WINFREY And there was this remarkable moment with her in the hospital where she had not been speaking, hadn't spoken for a long time, and it makes me want to cry. And you came to see her. And she comes out of her coma and she speaks.

Yeah. So she fell into a coma. She ended up missing my graduation. And so I threw my cap in the air, jumped in my car, drove there in Boston at that point. Went straight to the hospital, fell asleep on her hospital bed. And she had been in a coma. She also couldn't speak intelligibly for like five years. And I woke up in the middle of the night that night and she was awake.

And we had like the first proper conversation.

She turned to you and said, you graduated.

Yeah, you graduated college. And we talked for a while and then she went back out. And then she passed later that morning. But listen, I don't know what I believe about certain things, but that night I believed in a lot. And yeah, I'm going to get... But that was one of the greatest gifts I could have ever hoped to have received.

And then you took your father to Daniel's.

Yeah. So then I'm going to Spain for this job, which I almost canceled in mourning, but my dad encouraged me to do it. And by the time I changed my mind back to doing it, the only flight we could find was out of New York City. And so my dad and I drove from Boston down 95 to Danielle.

And we were running late. Like, we had to change into our suits in like a rest station bathroom. And we show up at Danielle and we walk in and they greet us, they walk us through the bar. I thought they'd seat us in the bar, but they didn't.

They walked us into the dining room. I thought they'd seat us in the dining room. They didn't. They walked us into the kitchen, up the set of stairs, into this very special room called the dining room. They didn't. They walked us into the kitchen up the set of stairs into this very special room called the skybox. Wow. Table for two overlooking the kitchen. You were in the skybox. We were in the skybox. Wow.

Okay. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't like hang out with Maya Angelou, but I went to the skybox. And Danielle himself, the greatest chef in the world to me, at that point in time, proceeded to send us up 16 courses explaining every dish himself. We were the last people in the restaurant.

My dad, me and Daniel, he stayed until the very end, gave us a tour. There was no check. And in that moment, while at the first seasons I was inspired on the power of hospitality to help people celebrate,

that was the saddest season of my life. And yet he gave my dad and I one of the best evenings of our entire lives.

And also in that passage, when you write about that experience at Daniel, I'm gonna introduce you in a moment, we keep talking about you and talking about, but I learned something too. I just, I just had a big aha

and you all are going to love this moment. You say, you drink your finest wine, your most expensive wine on your worst day. A lot of people keep their wines and they keep their best meals and they keep their best china and their best things

for when there's something to celebrate or when there's a big deal happening, but you

say do it on your worst day. Yeah, those days are already good. You don't need a good bottle of wine. Drink the best bottles on the worst days. Don't you think that's a good adage?

I think that's good. That's good. So he's the world-renowned French chef behind the legendary restaurant, Danielle here in New York City. Chef, you met when you were still in college. Yeah. What did you see in this young, welcome Danielle Balloon.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Oprah.

Well, what did I saw in him?

Yeah. I think, you know, when you get to Cornell, Well, what did I saw in him?

I think, you know, when you get to Cornell, there's hundreds of students that are studying hospitality. Yeah. And Will was certainly the most animated, the most passionate, the most interested by what was happening that week. And, well, I don't remember who brought me there, but you were in charge of some part of the dinner.

Well, I was in charge of marketing, but his dinner sold out so quickly.

There was nothing to market.

So, I decided that I was in charge of entertaining Daniel.

Exactly. That's what happened. It's then, after a wonderful dinner we had and this interaction with all the students and the guests there, then we went out. And so we went out for a drink, typical after work. We all gather into a bar, a dive bar somewhere on Cornell's Main Avenue. And then after we all say, well, let's go to my home.

It's getting, the bar's going to close. Let's go to do the after in my home. And I got into this flat house that I don't know how many people were living into this small house.

It was not the nicest house.

Didn't you all end up raiding some kitchen and making eggs and truffles in the middle of the night?

And now it's 2.30 in the morning or 2 o'clock in the morning, and we all want a bite. Yeah. And so we go back to school, we go and bribe the security in order to get to the kitchen to take some eggs, some caviar, some truffle. And I bring that back. Now I'm in the kitchen.

There's a mountain of dirty dishes everywhere.

Wow.

The closets are all broken. There's no plate, nothing. But there's a big pan that I clean up, and I start to make my scrambled eggs inside. And I have one spoon, one pan. I fed 30 people.

That was pretty good.

It was amazing.

This is good.

Unbelievable. What did you learn from him over the years?

Well, what I've learned is, and that's what the book is so unreasonable in a way that is explaining how to take the codes of hospitality that we all know and do well and all that and recode it for his own vision of what hospitality should be in his own mind.

And in his own, and what I've learned is leadership among, because he didn't achieve everything by himself. We don't achieve anything by ourselves. Especially in the restaurant business. It's about the team. It's about, of course, we're there all for the customer,

but the team first. And I think we are at this power of leadership that make people think and people do things that they would have not conventionally do, for sure.

Yeah. Thank you.

You are... I love you. You're an amazing example. I don't know if I could work for you, but...

Thank you, Daniel. Thank you.

Thank you so much. I just want to say one thing. I think we are ultimately a compilation of all the people that we find ourselves lucky enough to be around as we grow. And it's a little bit of a aligns with that whole idea of our legacy is not one thing. Is not one thing. Nor are we. We are an addition of all the relationships. And I've learned so much from you, but of every person I've met in

restaurants who has achieved the level of success that he has, there's no one that comes anywhere close to being so generous with the next generation. People who, in the moments where they're in the receiving end of his generosity, have nothing to give him in return. And yet, he gives because not only is it the right thing to do, but I think we, of the many things we have in common, one is that we just derive so much pleasure from being generous with others.

OPRAH WINFREY Yes. That's what's so interesting about this. I find this to be very inspiring, and I think that after reading it, a lot of people want to know, okay, how do I apply that to my work?

Yes.

I mean, as I said to you, Melody Hobson, big business woman, said to me that she uses it in her work with her employees.

Yes.

So you believe that this principle of being unreasonable in your generosity and your hospitality can apply to any service, any organization.

I mean... And the field guide, which is coming out next year, to any service, any organization.

And the field guide, which is coming out next year, is to tell us how to do that.

Exactly, yeah. Unreasonable hospitality is the why, the field guide is the how. But it's been wild over the past three years hearing stories from NFL teams and financial organizations, prison systems, prison systems,

school systems, retirement homes, hospitals, UPS stores.

OPRAH WINFREY Yes.

DAVID KELLY Of the experiences they've created for others that have been inspired by the book. And it's so cool when you hear a story about something that I don't think I ever would have been able to do.

OPRAH WINFREY I just thought the paying the parking meters was a great idea. Share that with our audience.

So one of the real paradigm shifts in the book is you can systemize hospitality. If you have your eyes open wide enough to identify simple pattern recognition, the things that happen over and over again, and then decide what is the most awesome way to respond every time that happens. You can create magic all the time. And so when people, this is back in the day when meters in New York City were still coin operated.

We realized that guests would have to run out in the middle of their meal to go fill the meter. And that breaks the bubble that we're trying to create. And so we just implemented a system. When we were bringing people to the table, we'd ask them how they got to the restaurant. And if they took a subway or they drove

and parked in a garage, okay, we don't do anything. But if they drove and they parked in a meter, we would just say, hey, you know what? Just let us know where your car is parked. And we're gonna keep the meter field the entire time. Just sit here and enjoy the night.

Just a little-

Isn't that a nice thing? Thinking that never happened to me, but okay, that's nice.

But here's the thing. It's so simple. It's not hard.

Yeah, that's not hard, but this was a hard one. Remember the time when someone came and they had not gone sledding and you got the sleds? I said, what?

MATTHEW MCCURRY So there was a family of four from Spain. We had these big, big windows. It started snowing. We overheard that it was the kids' first time seeing real snow. And so, I mean, it feels pretty obvious, right? You send someone out to a store, find sleds, send them up to Central Park after their meal to go sledding. And here's the thing. We were serving some of the best food in the world. And I've talked to so many people who do not remember a single thing they ate. But they will never forget how we made them feel through gestures like that.

Well, I wouldn't forget the sled either if you sent me to Central Park. And also there was this moment too, I thought this was a simple moment that you share in Unreasonable Hospitality about a couple was celebrating their anniversary and they said to the maid or deed that they had a bottle of champagne in their freezer at home and they said, do you think it will burst before we get home?

Tell us what happened.

PSA, if you leave a bottle of champagne in the freezer, it definitively will burst. And so we did these things, like the kind of things you would do for any close friend. We got their address, we went back to their house, we took the bottle out of the freezer, put it in the fridge and left some caviar and a note saying, thank you so much for joining us. But here's the thing. Anyone, sometimes people listen to this, and this is important. And they say, well, yeah, of course,

you could afford to do it. You're a fancy restaurant. Two things. One, it's not about how much these things cost. It's about how thoughtful they are. That hot dog cost two bucks, but look at the impact it had. But also, I would actually go so far as to argue that you can't afford not to. Because every dollar I ever spent on unreasonable hospitality was far more impactful than any dollar I ever spent on traditional marketing. Because when you give people stories like

this to tell, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to tell them over and

over. Those people are still talking about that sled and that hot dog.

Yes. And you end up with legions of ambassadors out there doing your marketing on your behalf.

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app.

Destinee, where are you? Okay. Right here.

What do you want to say? Hi.

Hi, Oprah. Hi, Will.

Hi. I like to consider myself a Zillennial, right? So, in between Millennial and Gen Z, on the cusp. So, we're the same age. Yeah, we're the same age. We're'm loving this conversation today because I truly believe that everyone's first job should be in customer service. Whether it's retail or waitressing, I was a waitress myself in college and I developed customer service skills. However, you might not like this. I wasn't a traditional waitress, right?

Because I would actually sit in the booth with my customers and take their order and just get to know them. And because of that, I really developed like those personal stories. And I use those customer service skills today as my career as a journalist. However, sometimes you don't meet the nicest people.

So my question to you is, what advice would you give to kind of have hospitality to people who are kind of difficult?

Well, first of all, I love that you sat at the table. I mean, when I first got to Eleven Madison, I did not have a ton of crazy high-end fine dining experience. And there was a regular from one of my other restaurants that came in and I went over and put my hands on the table and leaned in to engage with them. And when I went back to the service station, the service director, who did have a lot of fine dining experience, started yelling at me in the way that you yell at your boss. You know, like, very upset that I had done

that because the rule of fine dining is you don't touch the table. The table is theirs. But A, any rule, if you ask why it exists, and the only answer is that that's how it's always been done. That's a rule that no longer deserves to exist. And B, I believe the service, the food, the design, they're all merely ingredients in the recipe of human connection.

And I believed by breaking the plane, I was able to connect more deeply with him, as it sounds like you were able to by pulling up a chair. I learned so many lessons from Danny Meyer. I think Danny Meyer is one of the true greats, not just in restaurants, but just he's one of the great men.

One of my favorite lessons I learned from him was the charitable assumption. The charitable assumption is a different way of saying, give people the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, in restaurants, sometimes people come in and they are acting like jerks. Right? And that's just a reality.

The Felix story. Well, yeah, a little bit, the Felix story. Yeah, yeah. And it's a totally fine expression of human nature to decide that the people acting like jerks no longer deserve our most profound hospitality.

And yet the charitable assumption would have you instead say maybe they're acting like a jerk because on their way to the restaurant tonight, they just heard that their wife was filing for divorce or someone in their family had died. And maybe the person acting like a jerk

actually needs our love more than anyone else in the room. And by the way, sometimes they're just jerks.

Yeah, yeah.

But I'd always rather err on the side of assuming the best in someone than the other way around.

So I mentioned the Felix story because he was a jerk.

He was a jerk.

He was a jerk. But when he comes in late, no explanation.

Yes.

The first thing you say is not, oh my God, why are you late? Well, you say, is everything okay? Is everything okay? That's the charitable assumption. Yeah, exactly. Is everything okay? Are you all right? Is your family all right?

Felix was a guy that worked for us at that restaurant. And said, hey, are you okay? Like, is everything okay? What's going on? He goes, no, I just didn't want to come in until right now. Spoiler alert, I fired Felix. Because here's the thing. I think when you work so, so, so hard to build a culture and to embody and celebrate what right looks like and someone is that reckless with that culture, they cannot continue to be a part of it.

You fired him, but didn't corporate rehire him?

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

I got a call three days later from someone at corporate. This was not Danny Meyer's company. I got a call three days later from someone at corporate. This is not Danny Meyer's company. And rather than even ask from my side of the story, they said, hey, we talked to Felix, like he makes us a lot of money. We rehired him.

Without even consulting with you, the manager.

Without even consulting me. And when you give as much of yourself to a job as I've always given to the ones I've had, and you feel that disenfranchised, there's only one thing you can do. And so I put in my notice there. And it was from there that I ended up one step away from Eleven Madison Park.

OPRAH WINFREY Yeah. So is it true that when you no longer have trust in the people who are over you, like the corporate office, you no longer trusted them because they didn't trust you. And so you know that is not going to be a workable situation.

That's when it's time to go. I think it's impossible to trust people from whom you don't feel you are receiving trust. And I do, like the more trust you give people, the more trustworthy they become, right? It's like the self-fulfilling idea.

Now I always try to give people, whether they're the ones I work for or the ones that work for me, one more chance than might seem appropriate to earn that trust. But I think some violations are hard to wind back.

Felix was one of them. Yeah.

Kyle, what'd you want to say?

Well, I had the privilege of attending the Unreasonable Hospitality Summit back in May in Nashville, and it left a huge mark on me. Thank you. I'm a district manager at SoulCycle,

and at our core, we are an indoor cycling studio, but we really consider ourselves to be a hospitality business first. When I first found SoulCycle, I was newly sober and looking for, I didn't know it at the time, but I was really looking for a new community

and a sense of belonging, and I really found it in our studios. I believed in the experience so much that I actually started working as cleaning staff

just so I could get free rides.

Just to get in? Yeah, and today I have the honor of leading several of our markets and the teams that bring that magic to life.

What drives me...

From cleaning stuff to that, congratulations.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

What drives me is the hope of being able to create that same kind of transformative experience for others that SoulCycle created for me. So, you know, I always say that I found my passion at SoulCycle, but I found my purpose in the work that we do every single day. So my question for you is,

since hospitality is always evolving, what are some mindsets or practices leaders like myself could adopt to keep making people feel seen in new ways.

It will be in the Unleashable Husbands How to Fill Guide. Yeah, I'd love to answer that, but you do need to buy the book. One of my favorite quotes of my dad is, keep your eyes peeled. What he meant when he said that was,

no matter where you are, there's inspiration all around you. If you are, well, looking hard enough and there to grab it and hold on to it when you find it. I found that I was able to bring fresh perspectives to the work I was doing in the restaurant

because of things that inspired me in other places. And I've been inspired on airplanes or I was inspired at Rocky the musical. I was inspired at barber shops. And in each one of those things, because I was able to see the thing that was happening, take it home, make it my own, I was always able to come up with new, new, innovative ideas. It's actually another Maya Angelou quote,

the more creative you are, the more creative you become. Right? If you create a practice of observation, a practice of reflection, I just don't think there's any end to the amount of inspiration we can receive and by definition the ideas we can create.

Kyle, can you give us an idea of how you're on the cleaning staff and you get noticed enough? Because usually people don't pay attention to people on the cleaning staff and you get noticed enough because usually people don't pay attention to people on the cleaning staff and you're not even in the peripheral vision of anybody to even recognize that you have other talents.

Well, a lot of our roles at SoulCycle are rider-facing. So, you know, I'm just a firm believer that if you, you know, give good hospitality and you make people feel seen It'll it'll come back tenfold So I believe in that and I stand by it and and I believe that that experience came true for me

Wow, and yeah, and by the way, obviously I remember you from the summit your energy is unforgettable

Thank you

and I would imagine knowing you only as much as I do that you got promoted because you act like you acted like the role you wanted to be in. And people saw the initiative you were taking and wanted to just give

you more. OPRAH WINFREY Everybody's going, mm-hmm. Like the Amen Choir. Well, you and I have something else in common. Here's what you say about gifts on page 217. That gifts are a way to tell people you saw, heard, and recognize them. That you cared enough to listen and to do something with

what you heard. What's your idea of the perfect gift? I mean, I think, first of all, that last line I think is such an important one. So many people have great ideas. They listen, they hear something, they come up with an idea, and yet the difference between the good and the great

is the simple decision to decide to do it.

To do something with what you heard.

Just do it with a gift, with an idea, with whatever it is. My perfect gift, it could look like a thousand different things. It just needs to, one of my favorite kind of articulations is one size fits one.

That it's a gift that almost wouldn't make sense for anyone else to receive, but for that person, it's perfect. That it is completely bespoke and it could cost $3 or it could cost $3,000. The impact of a $3 one size fits one gift

will always be bigger than the impact of a 3,000 one size fits all gift. Wow. In my view.

What's one of the best gifts you've ever received?

I'll tell you, I just received an amazing gift four days ago. I do a lot of speaking about unreasonable hospitality. I'm very fortunate to be on the receiving end of some pretty cool gestures when I go to do a talk. I did a talk in Nashville where I live now. And my mom was sick. My dad was working a lot. So we had a nanny,

who was my cousin, who lived with us for years. And Liz is her name. And she is like my second mom. Liz is one of the most important people in the world to me. And yet, since I moved to Nashville, I haven't seen her in a couple years. The people hosting me called my dad and said, hey, what's a gift that we could give Will that no one else would ever think of?

And he said, get Liz. And so I walk into the room to do my pre-conversation with the person that was interviewing me. And Liz is sitting at the table that I'm gonna sit at. And Liz doesn't dress up, so she's wearing fancy pants and a button-down shirt.

And I'm looking at her like, is there a lady that works in this hotel that looks exactly like Liz? Turns out it was her. They just flew her down and we got to spend three days together.

And that, with everything that's going on in my life right now, there is no greater gift I could have received. Well, thank you for the gift of this book. Thank you.

Unreasonable Hospitality. There's so much more phenomenal business and life advice in this book that I think that our audience, you're gonna leave with the book.

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Can I?

Yes. Yeah.

I mean, do you realize what I'm experiencing right now? I believe you can talk things into existence. This is a pinch me moment being up here with you right now. I just want to make clear that I don't take moments like this for granted, nor do I think any of us ever should. And the fact that my book was just the book that you gave away.

Hell yeah.

Oh yeah. An absolute delight. Thank you. Will Godera's fantastic book, Unreasonable Hospitality, will make you a more generous, more present, sensitive, and available person to use your gifts, your talents, your offerings to uplift someone else's life. That's what I love about this book.

Thank you so much.

It's available wherever you buy your books and keep an eye out for Unreasonable Hospitality, the feel guide coming in April of 2026. Chef Danielle Ballou, thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here.

And a big thank you to this wonderful audience for being with us in New York City.

Thanks to our friends at Walmart for supporting this episode and for providing us with this very pretty set. Go well, everybody.

Go well.

You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks

everybody.