SHOCKING: Muslim Leader CLASHES With Harman Singh Over Henry Nowak Murder | Samara Gill

Well, my goodness, what a response to Henry Nowak's murder.And the more details that come out about this, the more I am shocked, maybe not surprised, but absolutely shocked about how this was handled.And it's opened up so many questions, questions on levels of policing, Does the fish rot from the head down, as Nigel Farage said in his very strong statements?Should we ban the kirpan, which is the Sikh ceremonial knife that was used to murder Henry Nowak on that now fateful night?Well, I've got a panel of real experts on this.I've got Ahmed Yacoub who joins us.

He's a barrister and he's also somewhat of a politician in his area.Peter Blexley, of course, who is sort of the god of all things on policing and crime and served for many decades in the Met Police.And Harman Singh, who's really a spokesperson for the Sikh community, a leader within that community and also owner of the infamous Rangraj restaurant.Welcome, everyone.

Thank you for having us.Good afternoon, Samara.

Peter, I want to start with you first.There are a lot of questions being asked about the fact that... seemingly now, a racial slur in policing is treated more seriously than actual murder.What is going on?And the scenes we saw last night, the protests outside the Southampton police, it shows that people are very upset.And I'm so divided about this, because on one hand, I think many police officers are stressed out about losing their their careers over being accused of racism but on the other hand to be handcuffing someone who is barely conscious lying there on the ground is also unacceptable.What's your take on this Peter?

Well quite clearly we've got to the pointnow where police training and indoctrination is so fundamentally wrong and appalling that we have police officers acting in a way that we saw.And what I mean by that is I've heard all the excuse -makers who are actually trying to defend the indefensible policing, saying, well, there had been a 12 -minute phone call, they'd been told that there had been an assault by a racist white person on a brown -faced person, so they had that at the forefront of their thinking.When they arrived, well, for me, that's just nonsense.The opening shots of that body -worn camera that we've seen clearly shows that the man who has, the police have been told, is a racist, is on the ground, he's being sat up against the wall by the victim's father.So immediately, when you see this panning out in front of you, you would go, hang on, This doesn't appear right because why would a member, a family member of a man who's allegedly been attacked racially, why would he then be propping up the assailant against the wall?

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.So your instant reaction would be, I've got to find out what's gone on here, not just that you're going to assume something based on what you're told, you are going to dynamically assess the situation and find out exactly what went on.And then the handcuffing and that dreadful line, which should be a seminal moment for British policing, when Henry tells the officer he's been stabbed and the officer disgustingly replies, I don't think you have, mate.

You've been stabbed.You've been stabbed?Whereabouts?I don't think you have, mate.

That should be etched at the top of every police training manual from here and hereafter.because it should be seminal, it shows that the police assumed things and we all know that assumption is the mother of all muck -ups and that they had pre -ordained bias in their heads which in the early stages clouded them from properly assessing the situation.

Absolutely and we know now as well there was a 999 call that was made by a random bystander who also said someone's been stabbed.and they also won't listen to.You know, with the more details that we get coming from this case, also hearing that the mother and the brother were already conspiring, already hiding evidence to make sure that Vikram Digwal could potentially get out of this free is absolutely insane.The family effort.I've got to give a little credit to the father, who I think did try and get medical attention.Harman, you were there yesterday during the sentencing.

I mean, what were the emotions like?

Emotions were overflowing.People were, like, I seen many friends and family of Harry Nowak.They all were crying.They're just watching each other and their tears were falling from their ears.They're not able to speak out.And it was very emotional yesterday, because they were here yesterday for yesterday, looking for some good sentencing for these scums, Digwa.

But Judge Digwa, only 21 years, which is very less, what happened.The family was broken.but his father stood tall and he gave a message out to the press.He was very brave.He used very valued words to keep the calm.He done his best, but inside he was broken that what police did after the attack, that was shameless.

It really was.And it's interesting, though, because as a member of the Sikh community, you came on my show just last week, you spoke about the banning of the kirpan, which has now become a massive topic in the British zeitgeist.Should it be banned?Should people be able to wear ceremonial knives?Look, I have to, in some way, and you know, there were actually years added to his sentence because he brought the Sikh community into disrepute, which I really agree with the judge on, because he has, considering that since the kirpan has been made legal to wear, there actually hasn't been a single attack with it.It's just this is the first instance of something so horrible happening.

So in a way, you've got to say this was a really bad egg.Ahmed, you've been listening here.You are a Muslim man, and you're saying that the Kirpan shouldn't be banned.What's your rationale behind that?Shouldn't this be a watershed moment where we say no more?One murder is one too many?

It's sort of the prosecution's own case that another knife was used.And you can check the court records for that.Another knife was used.And we don't know whether the coupon was actually used to commit that murder.I made a statement a few days ago and I said, look, Yes, a criminal is going to go to prison for his crime, but bringing the Kepan into it globally and targeting the Sikh faith, which people have been doing, is wrong.That's what my thoughts go out to Henry Nowak's family.

I'm a father.of four, and that video that I watched, the body one, I couldn't watch.It was a very, very difficult watch.Like Peter said, these police need some sort of training, but what about the ones that actually went and did that?Are they going to get some sort of disciplinary action against them or no?This is something that we've been, you know, it's been happening.

Police are not doing their job properly in certain circumstances.Yes, the media doesn't allow them to do it because if they've got a phone call that somebody is being racist, already there's pressure on them.And that pressure comes from media.And it's the far right media that say that there's a two tier system here where when one person is a racist, to a person of color, or they get treated differently to someone who is racist, someone who is racist to someone, a person of non -color, basically.People are saying this, the far -right media are saying this about the police.So the police are under immense pressure in this sort of age, in this period.

They are under pressure.But there has to be proper training now.A mother has lost a child, a father has lost a child.And yes, Vikram Digwa did a very bad thing.And his family have been punished.I'm sure one of his mother's been convicted as well for assisting an offender, if I'm not mistaken.

He should, she should.I mean, if my boy makes a mistake, if my child makes a mistake, I'll be the first one to call the police and say he needs to be punished.That perpetrator must be punished.But again, I stand by my statement.Peter?

Peter?Ahmed, you've used the expression far -right media twice.Who, in your opinion, is the far -right media?

Well, GB News.I love them.I love the media channel.That's an utter news agent.And I'm not ashamed to say...

I really don't think that the far -right media, who are the only ones who have actually covered this properly, I don't even call it far -right media, I just call it right -leaning media.

OK, right, let's call it right -leaning media.Am I also far -right?Because I'm also against this, what happened with this Henry.Far -right?Far -man?I don't know.

I'm some citizen.

You don't know whether you're coming or going.You're saying halal meat should be banned and you went to Dubai.It's not a topic of halal meat here.

You can do something somewhere else.It's not a halal meat topic here.

You don't know whether you're coming or going, Harman.

It's not a halal meat topic.You're a barista.

It's the kind of intellectual level that you're on.That's the kind of intellectual level you're on, Harman.So, PJ, I'll speak with you.From when halal came in, Why are you jumping the gun?

It's about the dagger.

No, it's the level of intellect.

Are you really a barrister or you've got fake papers?

Okay, okay.I don't really understand what Harman's halal meat stand has to do with your murder.

No, of course, Henry Novak, I said my thoughts are with the family and my thoughts are with the deceased.

Look, let's just bring it back to the point that actually the positive discrimination thing that's being brought in, you know, we've had Southampton police officer leaking to the Telegraph that police officers are told that they must respond in different ways according to the ethnicity of those involved.

Look, because there's a pressure on the police force.They've made a massive mistake.But how do we stop that mistake from happening again?

I just want Peter to chime in here and then Harman, I'll get your view.

I think Peter does have the answer to be fair.He made a valid point about, you know, early training and proper training indoctrination.And that's the only way it's going to rip.

There's too much training that has led to this, though, would you say, Peter, the way that police officers are so scared to offend anyone that they even went and offered Vikram Digwad, the murderer, special food while he was in custody.Meanwhile, Henry Noah.

He was not even handcuffed.He was not even handcuffed.

Exactly.Yes.

Yesterday, I was reminded of a wonderful expression from police training of yesteryear.And that training was, the only colour a police officer will see is blue, as in the thin blue line.And it's a wonderful old line, because it says to officers, you do not see colour.You see everybody and treat everybody equally.no matter what.You do not have bias towards one particular group or another.

Whether they be a prince or a pauper, you treat them all the same, and the only colour you see is blue.And there's another wonderful expression from policing of yesteryear which will never be used these days, and it was called the ABC of policing, and the A stands for accept nothing, B stands for believe no one, and C stands for check everything.If the C had been applied, that everything had been checked instantly, those officers arrivedon the ground, this could have turned out to be a very different story.

And how can you put them in handcuffs and then take them away?

And there's going to be an investigation into that.But I feel like an element of that, Ahmed, is the fact that the racial slur was treated more seriously than the fact that he has been...

And should it not be, like I said, whether a White person is a victim of racism.

Let's just listen to the call from the brother.

Sorry, we just got attacked racially by some white person.

Right, okay.Whereabouts are you?

We're on Belmont Road.

Just out in the street, are you?Sorry?You're just in the street?

Yeah, literally.I just parked on my car to come home and he attacked my brother.

Talking about verbally or physically?

No, no, he physically attacked my brother.We're Sikhs, we wear turban and he just attacked my brother.

Have any weapons been involved?

No, no, no.

No.What did he say to you?Oh, who do you think you are?Look, bro, you don't carry a weapon.Then I go and he goes, oh, who do you think that is, a bad man?I said, bro, look, I'm not a bad man. I'm speaking to you.

Gopri, what did he say?Did he...Did he...Was he rageously abusive?

The police need a report.Come here.Yeah, he was.So they said to me, he stumbled into my brother.

Yeah.

So he stum...Do you want to speak to my brother?

No, you carry on.He stumbled into him and then what did he do?

So he stumbled into you, and then what?Yeah, so he walked into me and stumbled.He's drunk.

I clearly said to him, look.Yeah?Look, mate, you're drunk.Carry on about your day.Do what you need to do.And then what?

Then he goes to me, who do you think you are?Who do you think you are?

He goes, who do you think you are?Who do you think you are?To my brother.And then what?

And then he goes, oh, oh, you're this, you're that.Who do you think you are?Bad man. I was like, yeah, I'm a bad man.And what?Then he starts recording me.Right.

As he's recording me, I'll snatch his phone.He's then laid a punch onto me.He's pushed me back on my shoulder.come off.He started then grabbing my head.So I then grabbed him and then he started pushing me, attacking me even further and everything like that.

At the minute now he's lying on the floor.He was trying to get away.He jumped over some bins and stuff on the other neighbour's side.He jumped over the bins and tried to leave through the bin way.He's left his shoe here as well.

So he doesn't have any injuries?

He's hurt his face, I think he's fallen because when he tried to climb over the bin he fell on he's fallen from the one side of the bin over the gates to the other side.

I think he needs medical attention.

Does he need medical attention you reckon?He will, yeah, I believe, yeah.

Just to confirm, no one's seen any weapons?

No, no.I don't know what weapons it would be.

I mean hearing that is just, I did think it was important to play the full thing.You can just hear the lies, the lies from the start.Harman, what's your reaction?

As a baptized Sikh, Amritdhari Sikh, that Sikh can never lie.That's the one rule of this Sikhism.These people keep on lying, whole family keep on lying from start till end of the trial.So this is one thing.They were the family of liars who used a dagger to kill up to unarmed person.And in Sikhism, a man, a Sikh, cannot use a weapon against an unarmed, weak person.

It can be used only as a resort if nothing is coming up, no help is coming up, and you have to save lives.And your aggressor is very powerful.Only then you can use this kripa.That was in old days.But now we're living in civilized society.We need, not need to carry

big Kirpan to show off or bully people.I am being bullied many times.I posted many videos online before that many of our Sikh brothers with long swords and Kirpans, they are bullying other people on the streets.I don't like that.And I'm posting it from last two, three years.It's just not now I started brand Kirpans.

I'm doing it from last two, three years because I've been through this.I was attacked by Sikhs with Kirpans at my home, at my businesses, because I don't agree with their ideology.So, because it's being used as an excuse that you can carry it and police is not stopping them.But I was arrested once just on posting, I will defend myself if somebody tried to kill me because police is not helping me. I got arrested straight away.Why?Why that time president did not arrest me?

You were arrested straight away.You were.

Yeah, straight away.Why?Yeah.But other guys, you're threatening they're not being arrested.But I got arrested.Why?

Because I am a right wing.I'm against establishment.I'm against what's wrong.I just complete one thing.Just before coming to the show, I posted one video online where I mentioned clearly many ex -convicts, mentally ill people, Unstable people, they are just putting turban on their head and carrying swords and kirpans.So I just posted it.

Have a look.Before and after.They just changed their appearance to carry these swords to do whatever they want to do legally.Where is the system to find out if he's a real baptized Sikh or not, who's carrying a sword?Does he do all five Ks?So people are misusing the system.

Yes.

Because in old times, when we used to fly, we used to wear this small one.

small ones for our beliefs.That's all you need to carry.

Small ones, yeah.

That's all you need to carry.

We used to carry, because we don't need big daggers.Because when you are in possession of this power, you will misuse it.And our people are misusing it again, again, and again.I can show you hundreds of videos where sick guys using kirpan, big kirpan, and stabbing other people.

It is a known thing.My father comes from Amritsar in the Punjab region.And there are a lot of Sikh youths that unfortunately have been using and abusing their power that they get when they do get to use the ceremonial dagger.And unfortunately, it's just a taste of what might come on Britain's streets, in my opinion.Peter, I just want to quickly get your reaction to that recording, because you can see that he, the brother, straight away goes to racism.to get the cops involved and to cover himself.

Why did he do that?

Because he's a liar.My big takeaways from this dreadful tragedy are police training needs to be changed radically.Police policy needs to be changed dramatically.Digwa's sentence was nowhere near suitable for the crime and the aggravating factors.He should have received a much higher tariff than 21 years for his murder conviction.And lastly, the Digwa family released a disgusting family statement yesterday.

Clearly, members of that family are violent.They are liars.They are disgusting.

And they've disgraced the Sikh community.

Indeed they have.Digwa could be 44 years old when he is released.He will be old enough to start a family and live well into old age with decades and decades of life in front of him.all of which was denied to the wonderful Henry.It is absolutely scandalous.

I haven't taken the knee, but my thoughts and prayers are with Henry Novak's family.And like I said earlier, I reject...

Why do white lives matter as much as black lives?

Of course they do.Every single life matters.Me, someone from the Muslim faith, And of course, there may be radical people in my faith as well, along with the Sikh faith, along with the Christian faith.But I believe as a Muslim, that every human being is equal.I've just travelled to Hajj and on pilgrimage.And I made a video over there when I said everyone is dressed in the same.

There is no white, there is no poor, there is no black.We're all equal in Islam.

There's also no women in the Hajj.But OK.

No, but it's segregated.Of course, it rightfully should be.Why would you?Samara, would you want to go and sleep in open air in front of a million men?You wouldn't want to do that, would you?

I wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't be welcome.Why?You're trying to act as if this was some sort of Kumbaya moment at the Hajj.I understand that you had a great time and I think you have come back more peaceful, but I wouldn't paint it as some sort of inclusive environment.

Of course it's an inclusive environment.

Peter, sorry, did you want to interject there?

I would be very willing to sleep out in the open with a million women, but I think they'd all need a lot of counseling afterwards.

I mean, look, look, you know, my own opinion might be something else, but my religious faith, Islam,of course there is segregation and there is you know that equality as well at the same time there can be segregation and equality can co -exist this is what people don't understand.

I just want to get on that so shouldn't there be one rule for all then shouldn't it be that no one can carry a ceremonial knife if you if you're wanting this if you're wanting this sort of peace among everyone.

I mean, look, like I said, I mean, I think you mentioned it earlier, Samara.This is the first incident that has taken place and we shouldn't be putting the Sikh faith on trial.

Harman, sorry, you wanted to say something?

We should have put the Sikh faith on trial.That's all I'm saying.I mean, if a Christian makes a mistake, are you going to put the whole Christian faith on trial?His faith hasn't advised him to do that.He's done that out of his own accord because he's a mad person.He's a criminal.

I mean, his faith hasn't advised him to do that.

I want your opinion on this just before we wrap up.

The power comes with responsibility.Right now, these people, they don't have any responsibility.They only have power.I posted one more video yesterday.One man was killed in Canada by a Sikh with Kirpan.It's happening everywhere.

In Punjab, India, the Nihangs are doing street justice and chopping the hands off of the people with swords.Law is there.It should need to be restrained now.We are not living in jungle or caves.We are now living in civilized society.We don't need big swords or edged, sharp swords or daggers to carry with us and bully or kill people.

No, it should not be.If that's the case, then every people should carry it.Or all English people start wearing turbans and start carrying Kirpa.That's the way out.Simple as that.It's for all or for no one.

Simple as that.

I mean, look, like I said again...I'm going to stick to what I said.The whole Sikh faith is not on trial.

It's not about Sikh faith.It's about the carrying of Kirpan, dangerous weaponry on the streets.But that is part of the Sikh faith.In many countries we are not carrying it.UAE, many countries, Italy, they don't allow us to carry but Sikhs are living there.They have Gurdwaras, everything is there.

They are still living there.How are they living there?So we have to vote mandate.

Like I said, it feels as, from an outsider, from someone of the outside faith, it feels like the whole Sikh faith is on trial right now and they've been targeted.You're playing political cards.You're playing political cards.And you're coming against the Harman because you like to appease certain people.

I don't appease.I am loyal to this country.I don't appease people.I appease my country.You are brand on your way into things.I like to appease certain people.

I appease my country, not people.You're appeasing people for votes.You're appeasing people for...I'm not a politician.I'm just doing what's right.

No, I'm not a politician.I've just come to make a change, I want to say.

You try to run, you fail.You lost last year.You remember?

Okay.

You try to get a word out of your mouth and you can't.You try again.

Try again.

I'm going to wrap this up by saying...

At least I don't brandose my way and try to appease to people that don't like me.You just came on to me because I'm not selling halal.

You just came on to me because I'm not selling halal.

I say how it is. I say how it is. I'm not there to preach for the rest.Do you watch that movie, Django?Do you watch that movie, Django?

And you'd realize what I'm talking about.

No, no, I don't know.See, see, everyone is equal in Islam.Now he's speaking ****.I said, go watch the movie, Django.Go watch that movie.I said I watched the movie with subtitles.

You watched it.You watched it.That goes against your own people to appease other people.what you do, right?It's not about own people.It's loyalty to the country.

I'm not loyal to my community.I'm loyal to this country.I'm loyal to my country as well.You're not.You're not.I've seen your videos.

You're loyal to Palestine.You're loyal to Gaza.You're loyal to Gaza.You're loyal to Palestine.Not this country.I can show your videos to you.

You're not loyal to this country.Children are dying.I'm worried when children are dying.Go to Palestine.Why are you living here?

Get lost.Go to Palestine.Go to Palestine.Go to Gaza.Let's bring this back to the fact that on British streets, an 18 year old was murdered.It was because of the fact that they had an altercation.

They didn't even know each other.They bumped into each other on the street and altercation happened.We believe the turban was slightly misplaced.And then because he had a Sikh ceremonial knife, He was able to take it and stab him multiple times and he bled in police custody with his last things that were said to him being his rights, his Bill of Rights, his memorandum.It is a very dark day for Britain.We can see that there is clearly polarisation.

People are not agreeing with each other.But I think what we can agree with is the fact that Henry Nowak his death should not be in vain.And they need to be changes that come out of this and quick and fast.But I don't put it on Labour to be doing anything too soon, because they haven't been able to have a steady hand with this sort of thing.Thank you very much for joining me, Armin, Peter and Ahmed Youcoub.I really, really appreciate your time.

And I appreciate you sharing your perspective on this.