“So Used To LYING!” AIPAC vs Thomas Massie + San Diego Mosque Attack With Mehdi Hasan

I would have come out sooner, but I had to.call my opponent and concede, and it took a while to find Ed Gowrine in Tel Aviv.

Three pro -Israeli billionaires poured record -breaking amounts of money into this tiny little district.If you don't think that $20, $25 million is enough to sway 5 ,000 voters, just not living in political reality.

I'm sure Will Chambers is about to do exactly that.We are so used to lying and obfuscation and weasel words, as we often see from Will Chambers here.Oh, get over yourself, Buckley.

I don't think Massie would have won if Israel had not spent a dollar.

When a mosque is attacked in the U .S., Republican politicians are silent.You can't find Democrats who do the same when there's a synagogue attack or anything equivalent.

Thomas Massie's bruising defeat last night was, according to most mainstream commentary, proof that President Trump remains in total control.He may be battered and bruised by the broken promises and the war in Iran, but he's still the kingpin and the kingmaker.Trump's takedown of Massey crystallises his grip on the GOP, said USA Today.Thomas Massey's defeat tightens Trump's grips on the new republic.And so, word for word, did the BBC.The New York Times, mixing things up a bit, said Trump tightens his grasp on the GOP.

The question they ought to be asking is who is gripping, or grasping, President Trump?Pro -Israel donors and lobbyists spent at least $15 million on the campaign against Thomas Massie.It's the most expensive primary in US history.Millions of dollars came from AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.You might therefore assume that Massie was a raving anti -Semite who used his platform to trash Israel at every opportunity.But he didn't.

In fact, until recently, he barely spoke about Israel at all.And that, apparently, was his main offence.

is there's a foreign interest group called AIPAC that got the ear of this current speaker and demanded 16 votes in April on Israel or the Middle East.We haven't had 16 votes in April on the United States in Congress.Ostensibly, it's a group of Americans who lobby on behalf of Israel.They're for anything Israel.And they're a very effective lobbying group.They get in there.

They try to get me to write a white paper as a candidate, for instance, for Congress.almost get...On what?On Israel.And I wouldn't do it.And he said, why?

And I'm like, I don't do homework for lobbyists, right?I'm like, I didn't like writing term papers at college.I'm not writing one for you.

Well, the campaign against Thomas Massey painted a grim picture of a scheming figure of dubious morals who went out of his way to make life difficult for Trump.In fact, he voted with the Republican Party more than 90 % of the time.Massie is staunchly against expensive military interventions and foreign aid, especially the Iran war.He's a leading critic of wasteful government spending and unmanageable debt.He's campaigned relentlessly for the total release of the Epstein files and for the prosecution of men whose crimes they expose.In other words, his platform is a lot like the one that got Trump elected.

So how did he become MAGA enemy number one?Well, it probably has something to do with statements like this.

The people who are funding the ballroom, the people who are funding the arch, the people who are funding the rebranding of the Kennedy Center, these are the people who are also funding my opponent.These are the people who have the ear of the president.These are the people who are changing, dominating our foreign policy decisions.They're the billionaires.And these are also the same people who are in the Epstein files.

So Amasi gone, at least for now, is very reasonable to ask what it all means for the future of a MAGA government in some turmoil.Has Trump tightened his grip on MAGA, or has the donor class tightened its grip on Trump?Joining me to debate all this is Will Chamberlain.senior counsel of the Article 3 project, Glenn Greenwald, the host of System Update, Clay Travis, founder of Outkick, and Buckley Carlson, the former Republican strategist and speechwriter.Well, welcome to all of you.Any Arsenal fans amongst you before we get anywhere?

Sure, I'll be an Arsenal fan today for you.

Thank you, Will Chamberlain.In that case, you're going to get an easier ride than normal.For American viewers who are a little mystified by what an Arsenal is, if it doesn't involve the US military, I can tell you it's my football team.I'm not going to use the word soccer in one of my own shows.And we've just won the Premier League for the first time in 22 years, which has made me the happiest human being on God's Earth.And on that positive note, I now expect you very quickly to be tearing each other from limb to limb.

Glenn Greenwood, it's an interesting scenario this involving Thomas Massey and indeed other people who appear to have been crunched in this primary race by Trump's political fist.And yet at the same time, you see a lot of the conservative right at war with each other.So what are you reading into the sort of overall picture here about what's going on?

I've been interviewing Thomas Massey for years prior to October 7th when he was really not talking much about Israel at all, applying though the same exact principles, applying to other issues as he's now applying to Israel, including being one of the leading opponents, for example, of the Biden administration's policy of financing the war in Ukraine on exactly the same grounds.He opposes US financing of the Israeli military and the Israeli wars, which is people in Israel are doing extremely well.Ukraine is not our government's obligations.American citizens are.Towns are falling apart.People don't go to college.

They can't afford health care for their kids.The most basic things that a decent country provides for their citizens.And yet we're spending billions of dollars on countries like Israel where millions ofpeople have higher standards of living in that country than they do here in the United States.He's been the leading cause or advocate of privacy rights and opposed to domestic spying.So he's always been somebody who's been a leading advocate of many of the principles, including, by the way, free speech that the MAGA movement claimed before Trump got back into power again, that were most important to them.

He aligned perfectly with it.The difference, though, is that he became an outspoken opponent of the U .S.relationship with Israel after October 7th, when the U .S.started spending not just $4 billion a year on Israel, but $20 and $25 billion, and however you count, far more than that, in the wake of all the wars that Israel was involved with.

And because of that, obviously, Trump was a major factor.But the real difference in this race was that three pro -Israeli billionaires led by Miriam Adelson, who Trump himself said is more loyal to Israel than she is to the United States, spent most of her life as an Israeli, was in the IDF, poured insane amounts of money, record -breaking amounts of money into this tiny little district where all you need is 50 ,000 votes to win.And if you don't think that $20, $25 million is enough to sway 5 ,000 voters, which was the difference in the race, to primary loyalty or at least equal loyalty to a foreign country are overriding what polling shows are people's opposition to Israel, to the war in Iran, and just drowning our politics in enormous amounts of unlimited money in service of this foreign country.And not saying Trump wasn't a major role, obviously he was.He has a huge grip on especially Republican primary voters.But if you deny that that was at least as big of a factor, then you're just insulting the intelligence of anybody listening.

I was going to say, I'm sure Will Chambers is about to do exactly that.

I'm about to ask him to do exactly that.I was going to preface it by saying that just before we came on air with this show, Donald Trump has gone public about a growing sense that people are getting that it's Israel trying to call the shots in Iran, that they forced him into the war in the first place, that they don't want it to end.They think that America should re -engage in the military strikes and so on.And Donald Trump's reacting pretty forcefully.Let's take a listen.

What have you said to Prime Minister Netanyahu about Iran and how long to hold off on strikes?

He's fine.He'll do whatever I want him to do.He's a very good man.He'll do whatever I want him to do.He's a great guy.To me, he's a great guy.

Don't forget, he was a wartime prime minister, and he's not treated right in Israel, in my opinion.I'm right now at 99 percent in Israel.I could run for prime minister.So maybe after I do this, I'll go to Israel, run for prime minister.I had a poll this morning.I'm 99 percent.

So that's good.No, he's a wartime prime minister.I just don't think they treat him well.I think they have a president over there that treats him very poorly.

So a lot to unpack there, Will, not least the idea of Prime Minister Donald Trump of Israel.We'll watch that development with interest.But this central point around Thomas Massie, which I find really fascinating, is that pretty much everything he stands for, and we'll park the Israel part of this to one side for a moment, but pretty much everything else, as Glenn articulated, would be the kind of stuff that Trump campaigned on when he got re -elected.I mean, I'm not going to meddle in foreign wars, particularly in the Middle East.I'm going to take care of cost of living, America first.et cetera, et cetera.

And people have looked at this and gone, well, you've done the complete opposite.And here's Thomas Massey.who's actually continued to stand by the positions that Trump was espousing as a candidate, leaving a lot of people a little bit mystified here about why Massie becomes the bogeyman if he doesn't involve his criticism of Israel.Because, Glenn, what Glenn said is correct.You can not be a conspiracy theorist to recount factually that there were millions and millions of dollars pumped in by Trump.Israeli -friendly billionaires against Massie.

And the only reason that could be, it seems to me, is because of his increasingly critical rhetoric about the Israeli government.What do you say?

Well, I think that's just simply mistaken.Remember, Thomas Massey wasn't broke here.He had over $10 million of his own to spend source from libertarians nationwide.So if he wanted to get his message out there, he could have.He easily did so he and the problem was that his message was schizophrenic and it's not Israel.It's the big beautiful bill.

Remember, I mean, you may put us this statistic where you said 90 % of the time he supported the Republican Party.That's a little bit misleading because the big beautiful bill was the one bill last year that essentially contained the entirety of the president's agenda.And by voting against that, he voted against basically everything President Trump ran on, massive increases in border security funding, funding for the wall, no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, massive decreases in some discretionary spending.So it was the key part of his agenda, and he was the only Republican to vote against it.And so then you look at what was the message?You say pro -Israel donors spent, but what did they say to voters in Northern Kentucky?

replayed president trump's rally where he endorsed edgar wrayne called thomas massey the worst congressperson in the history of the country disloyal to him disloyal to the party and i don't think the voters of northern kentucky are stupid they they voted for the presidentby almost 2 to 1.They know what they wanted.They wanted a loyal representative.And they weren't getting that in Thomas Massey.And that's why he's not going to be in Congress starting in January.

Have they got the president they thought they were voting for in 2024?

Absolutely, they certainly think so.I mean, Thomas Massie had the opportunity to make the arguments about how, you know, Trump was betraying his base.He wasn't making those arguments at all.Towards the end, he was making arguments about how me and Donald Trump have a lot of work to do still together, which is ironic, because a few months earlier, he was talking about how the Trump administration was the Epstein administration.That's the schizophrenia I'm talking about.He couldn't decide whether he needed to be pro -Trump to appeal to the voters in that district who liked Donald Trump or against him because of these supposed betrayals.

In reality, it was Thomas Massie hallucinating the president.its platform into what he wanted to be, rather than looking at what it actually was.Okay.

Okay, Carlson.Bears, can I just quickly ask Will just a very quick question?Sure.Did the record -breaking amount of millions of dollars poured into this district in Kentucky by Miriam Adelson and two other Israel -centric billionaires, was that a significant factor in your view in Thomas Massey's defeat after 12 years in Congress?

Of course it was a significant factor, but that money probably would have been there regardless, because President Trump had made Thomas Massie his target number one, so he would have found donors to spend that money in any event.It's just that the pro -Israel donors were particularly happy to spend that money in this case, obviously, because they don't like Thomas Massie very much.

OK, let me bring in Buckley on this.What do you make of it, Buckley, in particular?Do you think this is because of Israel?Or do you think it's actually because he took on Trump, as Will just said, over the big beautiful bill?And that was pretty much all of Trump's agenda.And therefore, if you're going to do that, Trump would see that as a massively antagonistic negative attack on what he wants to do.

And so he decided to take him down.

think Glenn made the case pretty convincingly with the data that he just presented here.I would just say I have a little bit different perspective in that we are so used to lying and obfuscation and weasel words.as we often see from Will Chambers here, but Donald Trump has clearly articulated exactly the way forward for the new MAGA coalition.He's straightforward and clear as he was in that tape that he didn't share the whole story.clip I don't believe, but he's talking now, he's acknowledged his donors are rich Israeli billionaires, he's acknowledged his base is actually in Israel, he's acknowledged he's pro -endless wars, he's acknowledged he's pro -surveillance, he's against the Constitution, he's perfectly happy for Americans to be miserable economically, he's perfectly happy to listen to purveyors of global misery like Miriam Adelson, which is totally consistent with the people in Thomas Massey's district who suffer from joblessness and drug addiction and depression.Now we get more of that.

It's kind of nice that Donald Trump made it very clear that there's going to be more disdain, more contempt, more drug addiction, more surveillance, more protection of pedophiles.It's kind of nice to know your enemy.And I think if you talk to people in the base, in the grassroots of the Republican Party, you'll notice that a lot of people are actually leaving.

It's exactly this kind of talk, which is why Ed Gallerine is now going to be the representative from Kentucky.

Exactly this kind of talk.Republican primary voters heard this message, and they heard it, and they said, this is silly.We are going to vote.Our time is now.The people who put him in office voted for a very clear agenda.absolutely articulated over an entire decade.

The people who voted for Thomas Mazzi in 24 are the same people who voted for Trump in 24.they wanted less government surveillance.They wanted, actually, justice for pedophiles.They didn't want foreign wars.They didn't want more economic...If they were right, Massie would have won, but he lost.

They don't want foreign interference in their country or in their district, and it's an absolute shame, but it is refreshing that Donald Trump has articulated that clearly, as he did last week when he said he does not care about Americans.He doesn't think about Americans before he makes decisions that impact their economic lives.So...The other great thing is the only straightforward thing that Ed Galron, deep state boob, Ed Galron, who was too afraid to actually debate Mazzi, too afraid to articulate any of his positions beyond actually having a draft.So people in Kentucky now can't find jobs, young people who can't find jobs, great.They can just go into the military and fight Israel's wars for Miriam Adelson, Paul Singer, and all the rest.

OK, I want to bring in Clay.Clay, welcome back to Uncensored.First of all, I want to play...Brad's car, still.Good man. I want to play a clip from Massey's concession speech and see what you think of this.

I would have come out sooner, but I had to call my opponent and concede, and it took a while to find Ed Gowrine in Tel Aviv.I did get the call.I have called and conceded the race.We've been honourable the whole time, and we're going to stay that way.

So making a joke there, clearly that his opponent is completely in the thrall and control of Israel.Ben Shapiro thinks this is all complete nonsense, unsurprisingly.Let's take a look at what he said.

podcast to stand right.The game that is played is there will be a critique that has nothing to do with Israel.And the first thing you do is you claim that it's about Israel in an attempt to gin up.the crazier part of the Republican base.

Now, I would say, Clay, that the trouble with Ben Shapiro's position is, and it may be why his own empire is crumbling like Rome in its last few days, is because he never accepts there is anything that could possibly be nefarious concerning anything to do with the Israeli government.And so I take what he says with a pinch of salt.And it is an undeniable fact that AIPAC and other pro -Israeli lobby groups, putting over $9 million in a deliberate bid to unseat Massey.Now, I accept that two things can be true at once.That may be because they wanted to, and it may be totally unconnected with the fact that Trump wanted to get back at Massey for not backing his big, beautiful bill.But I don't think you have to be a massive conspiracy theorist to think there might be a link here.

What are your thoughts?

I'll get into that, Piers.Let me start with this.The people of Kentucky's fourth congressional district have agency.They could make choices.If Kamala Harris had been running against Thomas Massey and a billion dollars had been spent on Kamala Harris in the fourth congressional district, she would have lost.Every lobbying group in America could have spent money on the wrong candidate in Kentucky's fourth congressional district, and it wouldn't have mattered, right?

So ultimately, this race came down to a decision between two people and the people of Kentucky's fourth congressional district.District.And by the way, all my family is from Kentucky before they moved down to Nashville to work in the DuPont factory here.All of my dad's family was from Kentucky.There's a lot of hardworking, tough people in Kentucky, and they went out and they listened to the arguments and they decided by 10 points that they thought Gowrine would represent them better than Massey and the interest that they had.Now, Was Donald Trump a big part of that?

Yes, because Donald Trump would still win the state of Kentucky by 20 plus points if we had a presidential election statewide right now.What this really came down to is Donald Trump is more popular in the Kentucky Fourth Congressional District than Thomas Massey is.And whomever Trump decided he was going to endorse, I believe, would have won.Just like happened in Indiana with the state senators, just like we saw happen in Louisiana with the Senate race, Trump is more popular in the South, I live in Nashville, than any elected official anywhere in the South.And so, if Trump comes out and says, this is my guy or this is my gal.His supporters are going to go out and vote.

I actually think then why did they, why did they pour a record breaking number of money into Kentucky?

Why did these billionaires pour a record breaking amount of money into Kentucky?Are they just dumb?

They don't realize they wasted it.

Let me just.

Let me just answer your question.Kamala spent a billion more dollars in 2024 than President Trump's campaign did.If you talk to them, they believe if they've had Kamala's money, they would have won in New Jersey and they would have won in Virginia.They want all seven swing states.They spent money because in order to beat an incumbent, you have to make people aware that there is a challenger there.Everybody in the whole district knew Massey already.

There's a reason if you go to Louisiana, that no Republican incumbent senator had lost.before 2012.Name recognition matters.If you have a brand new candidate that nobody knows, you have to introduce them to the district.Massie had been elected multiple times.You need three.

You need three.You need Miriam Adelson.You need Miriam Adelson with Trump.I think this was not about Israel.This was not about Israel.This was about the fact that Donald Trump has a fair - Why was Miriam Adelson involved?

Why was she so involved?

Why was her money so decisive?

There is a very small majority right now in the House.And the Trump team was frustrated because Massey, representing a rock -ribbed Trump district, was not supporting the primary agenda, the big beautiful bill, trying to move on from the Epstein story.Has there been any benefit?He promised that there were going to be all these charges brought.And instead of being 100 % behind President Trump's agenda, as the voters of Kentucky's fourth congressional district have now shown that they want their representative to be, he decided that he wanted to fight President Trump.He has that right.

Marjorie Taylor Greene.Marjorie Taylor Greene.Marjorie Taylor Greene.Marjorie Taylor Greene.Marjorie Taylor Greene.I think it helps Thomas Massey to argue of a But Marjorie Taylor Greene voted for the Big Beautiful Bill.

She was on Trump's side with every domestic policy issue that you just said Massie impeded.Her blasphemy was the same as Massie's.Trump is more popular in Marjorie.

Did you listen to me?Trump is more popular.I know you don't want this point out.

I know you don't want this point out.But no, no, because it's bullshit.Everything, this whole narrative is bullshit.This is all about anger at Massie because he voted against the Big Beautiful Bill.He was at least as angry at Marjorie Taylor Greene even though she voted for the big beautiful bill.

Marjorie Taylor Greene, it's not just Israel.It's not just, then why does every U .S.

politician make sure - Well actually, well hang on, hang on, hang on.Don't talk over each other.Hang on one sec, hang on one sec.Clay, Clay, Clay, on that last point, well on that last point, I would take issue with that because There is some really shocking polling about Israel in America, which is that nearly two -thirds of Americans now have a negative view of Israel.So they're not disengaged in the way that you think.

But that doesn't mean that Israel is the most important issue in America.I didn't say the most important issue.

I don't think Israel is in the top ten most important issues for the average voter.OK, but the most important issue in America, according to the polling, is cost of living.And there is a direct line between cost of living and Israel, because if you believe the New York Times report...And the Iran war.Let me paint a picture for you, Clay, where there is a link, which is that the New York Times reported several weeks ago that it was Israel that basically persuaded Trump to go in on the strikes on Iran.The Iran war has become, I'm afraid, an increasing fiasco, mainly because of the situation with the Strait of Hormuz, not because America hasn't pounded with the Israelis, the Iranian military, but the Iranian regime remains intact.

They remain in control of the Strait of Hormuz.They remain with a tight grip now on the global energy economy.They are threatening to launch another barrage of missiles over at their Gulf state neighbours, which we know has pretty much, you know, not paralysed but caused enormous damage to their ability to develop their new business model away from oil to safe tourism and so on.So, you know, this has not been going the way that everyone was assured it would go.And a lot of people, Clay, my point to bring it together, is that they believe that Trump was persuaded to do it by Israel.He's now come out today and said Netanyahu does what I tell him.

A lot of people think it was the other way around with that decision.And that decision has had a massively negative impact on the cost of living to Americans, which is actually the number one issue they care about.The interesting little twist, which I want you to explain to me, and then I'll get Glenn to respond to it, is notwithstanding that, Trump appears to still be wielding a lot of political power in the party.And my question would be, could he wield that power on his own, given his own very poor approval ratings right now, without the money from these billionaire Israeli donors?I think it's an interesting question.

I don't think that Massey would have won.if Israel had not spent a dollar, right?If Miriam Adelson, if AIPAC had not spent a dollar, Massey lost because President Trump is more popular in his district than Massey is.And as soon as President Trump said, Gal Ryan is my guy, Most of that money was spent to introduce gal right now to answer your question more direct.That's my opinion.I think the data war reflected.

Nobody knew when they had to introduce and that's why they had to spend so much money.He's running against an incumbent that everybody in the whole district knew on the Republican side.Now, on your point, you may remember this, Pierce, I'm gonna be vindicated on this.Do you remember when I was on your show in the middle of the terror force and everybody in the stock market was down at 5000 and I came on and I told you, Pierce, I will wear a clown nose on your show if within a year, the stock market is not massively higher than it is on this day.It's now up 50 % since then.I will make a promise to you, Pierce.

If the gas prices right now $4 .50 per gallon on average, all 50 states, that's an average.If they are not 75 cents lower by the time of election day, much lower than they are today, I will come on the day after the midterm elections with a bright red nose for you.I believe President Trump.I think you're going to be wearing a big bright red nose.I believe President Trump knows and understands how to resolve this situation in Iran.No, he doesn't.

He doesn't.I think that he is going to do so before the midterm election date.I think by Labor Day, the price of oil and gas will be down substantially in America.And I think America will be safer than it was before.OK, let me bring.

All right, Glenn, I'm not buying that narrative.For the simple reason, I don't think Trump has control of this war.Yeah, I think the Iranians have been militarily hammered, but in terms of their asymmetric strategy involving the Strait of Hormuz and the Gulf neighbors, I think they still maintain quite a large degree of control over what happens here.I think Trump's desperate to get out of this war, but trying to work out how he can do it where it doesn't look like actually some kind of surrender or defeat.And it all comes down to this claim he now says the whole war's been about stopping them having a nuclear weapon.OK, but the enriched uranium, remains buried away.

There's no sign of the Iranians wanting to hand that over.I don't know why they would, because they'd lose all their leverage.The Strait of Hormuz remains in Iranian control.And so, again, I'm not disputing the military overwhelming superiority.of the Americans and Israelis, but I don't see how you can claim at the moment that this war is not just dragging on exactly in the way that Donald Trump said he would always try and avoid.It's just becoming slowly a bit of a forever situation because the Iranians are like, well, we can keep controlling the Strait of Hormuz and keep our enriched uranium buried away until the cows come home.

And Trump doesn't want to get engaged in that.in military strikes, but Netanyahu does.Again, comes back to the Israeli element here of competing agendas.What do you think?

The first of all, just quickly on the whole narrative that's been pushed here.Marjorie Taylor Greene, like I said, has become public enemy number one for Trump.He drove her out of Congress, called her a traitor repeatedly.She voted for the big, beautiful bill.She voted for all of Trump's domestic issues.Her blasphemy was that she began objecting to Trump's wars in the Middle East, bombing of Yemen, arming the Israelis.

bombing Iran, getting involved in a new war with Iran.Everybody knew that the U .S.was going to have military superiority.We had complete military superiority within weeks in the war in Iraq.Obviously, we had total military superiority over the skies of Afghanistan.

They didn't have a Navy.They didn't have an Air Force.And yet we got dragged into these endless conflicts because asymmetrical fighting when you're defending your own country is an extremely powerful way of fighting off larger powers.And the Iranians are obviously enraged that they were attacked by the United States and Israel.They have their own domestic population to deal with.They can't look like this.

If Trump has been lying about this war from the start, saying from basically the beginning the Iranians are on their knees, they're begging for any kind of surrender, they want to give us everything in exchange for nothing, he announced six weeks ago they agreed to give over the quote -unquote nuclear dust, they agreed to stop funding Hezbollah and Hamas, they agreed to essentially everything that he wanted in exchange for nothing, and of course that was all false becausethe Iranians know they have immense leverage.Trump's only choices are to restart the war, which will not only make Will have to come on and wear a gigantic red nose.Well, Will might be, it's actually Clay that would have to do that, but I'm quite happy to put the same challenge to Will.They both should wear one.We'll get them both on the red noses.

Yeah, they both should absolutely wear one the next time they come on.

People made a lot of money if they listened to me and kept their stocks.Stocks were at record highs.

To be fair to Clay, you were right about that.

The stock market, rich people always do well in the United States.Trump can restart the war and he can get involved into a Middle East conflict like the one he repeatedly promised he wouldn't do, or he can just stop the war and be humiliated because none of the goals that he set out he was going to achieve will actually be achieved because the Iranians won't cooperate, because why would they?Or it could just be this third option where everything stays frozen, in which case there's no oil transiting through the Strait of Hormuz.Gas prices continue to go up.All these massive secondary effects on the world economy continue to cause massive suffering, not only around the world, but especially in the United States to against the people that Trump promised whose life he was going to improve.

The war would be over already.The reason the war is not over is because Trump has no way out.Iran has control of the Strait of Hormuz, which by the way they don't have at all because we put a blockade.But the only reason they have any aspect of strategic capability is because they're threatening to blow up people who are innocently traversing the Strait of Hormuz.That is basically they are terrorists threatening to take hostage the entire global economy.Which is what the US is doing to Cuba.

Which is what the US is doing to Cuba.It's what the US is doing to Cuba.Because they are crazy.Because they are crazy.It's what the Israelis are doing to Gaza.It's what the Israelis are doing.

Let me bring in the two others, because you guys have had a lot of air time here.Let me bring in Will Chamberlain.I mean, as Glenn just said, Clay just said the Iranians are crazy.I wouldn't say that Donald Trump's social media posts of the last three months have been exactly the most non -crazy stuff I've read in recent years.I mean, you could say it's even crazier than the Iranians.One minute he's going to annihilate the entire country, 90 million people, and he's going to do it in the next few hours.

Next minute, he wants a deal.Then he's going to annihilate them again.Then he wants a deal.Then he's going to do this.Then he's going to do that.U -turn after U -turn, change of plan.

And what it says to me, knowing Trump very well, is that he wants to get out of this thing, and he's trying to work out a way of getting out of it.But if at the end will, and we've debated the Iran war, so we'd have to relitigate all that again between you and me.But if at the end of this, and I don't know quite how this ends, frankly, because I think it's in the Iranian interest to string it out as long as possible.But if it ends with the Iranian regime still in place, with the former Supreme Leader's son running the show as the new Supreme Leader, with the IRGC still in tight control of its people, with the people not rising up at all, because they haven't done so far in three months for a number of reasons, but they haven't, and with the state of almost still having some form of control by the uranium regime, perhaps even putting tolls on stuff that didn't exist before the war started, where's the victory?And if they keep their enriched uranium, where is the victory?

You're right that that wouldn't be a victory, and you're hypothetical, which is why President Trump won't let it come to pass.I think that's the simplest way to understand that.President Trump is no fool.He understands.that a world where Iran retains its enriched uranium and control over the Strait of Hormuz would be a world where the United States, if it withdraws, would have lost the war strategically.So he's not going to do that.

Very simple.So there's basically the options available to him that he's actually going to take are, as Glenn put it, options, I think, number one and three, which are escalate, which I think is the most likely outcome here.I think President Trump is likely going to escalate within the next week or two.or kind of maintain the blockade and try and suffocate the Iranian economy.

But if he escalates, Will, if he escalates, sorry to jump in, but if he escalates, the IRGC have already let it be known that if there's any escalation again in military strikes, they will launch a barrage again.And they've got still over a thousand ballistic missiles, reportedly.They will launch a barrage at their Gulf state neighbors, who are already feeling a very, very hard pinch from this, both economically and I think in terms of their alliances and in terms of their security and everything.The last thing they want, when they've already lost a lot of people who've gone home, who migrated there, tourism is obviously on its knees, if there's an escalation again and that carries it through the summer, it's going to be absolutely devastating for the whole region.And everyone knows that, because we've seen it already.So how does Trump escalate without the Iranians escalating in a way that just makes this even worse?

I think you have to do something like what you did at the beginning of Operation Epic Fury.I mean, there was all sorts of talk that tens of thousands of Americans would die.Well, I mean, if you epic fury started out and everybody said tens of thousands of Americans would die if we did something like that, actually, we lost a total of 13, probably roughly the same amount we would have lost in normal peacetime military operations.I think the United States military is extraordinarily capable in the event that we decide to escalate things and restart.We will do enormous damage to Iran's ability to threaten both either us or our Gulf Arab allies.and that will be the answer to your question.

You sound extremely optimistic about that with no real reason to.I don't see the evidence.

I mean I think I have a lot of reason to be.The military success...

We were told this would all be over, Will, in two to three weeks.I remember being assured this would be over in two to three weeks.Then it was six weeks.We're now three months into this thing.They've launched barrage after barrage after barrage until they stopped barraging, and it didn't achieve any of the goals that were supposedly the goals of the war.So doing more barraging is fine, but all that will mean is..

.Well, that's just not true.Well, it is true.Who controls the Strait of Hormuz?Who controls the Strait of Hormuz?Yeah, but who controls the Strait of Hormuz?

Actually, I mean, the United States.Oh, come off it.The problem is also Iran is threatening to harass shipping, but the United States actually does control the Strait of Hormuz because we have a navy in Rwanda.

That's complete delusional nonsense.Of course they don't.

Well, then why can't Iran get its ships out?

Why can't the rest of the world get their tankers through, unless it's approved by Iran?

Because they're not willing to take the risk of Iranian harassment.But that doesn't mean that they have meaningful control over the strait.They can harass, but in terms of who actually has the ability to blockade, who can control what ships go in and out.Well, you think America's controlling what ships are going in and out?Or share.Maybe you're making an argument that the United States and Iran currently share control of the Strait of Hormuz.

Just to be clear, you think the United States is controlling access through the Strait of Hormuz right now?Yeah, effectively.Yeah.That's complete nonsense.They have a full blockade on all the Iranian ports.We've almost reached the stage of Baghdad Bob, you know, old comical Ali.

You remember him?The guy in the Iraq war in 2003, he was literally standing there going, there's no sign of the Americans.And they were literally blowing things up behind him.right?Remember, why can't Iran ship anything?

You're so desperate for this to be true.Why can't the rest of the world?Well, why can't the rest of the world?That's what he's asking you.

Again, I already explained that they're harassing it, but again, I guess we're having a semantic debate about control, right?Semantic?It's the crucial part.It's the crucial part of the whole thing.It's the crucial part of the whole thing that the Americans do because they don't have boats.

But it's the crucial part of the whole thing.The Iranians have realized they can wage an asymmetric war involving controlling a small stretch of water, which is preventing a lot of the world's energy getting out.

Piers, you're saying asymmetric war.Yes.They are threatening terrorism.Right?I mean, this is like saying, hey, you did.

Well, not really.I don't think in this case.I think they are an appalling regime, very capable of propping up terror groups all over the Middle East.Yeah, but let me just play out the analogy here.I would say that responding to attacks by the American and Israeli military, I wouldn't categorize Iran responding to that as terrorism, would you?Well, I would.

Hold on.I would, because if you respond to the American military, Yeah, but if you respond to a military attack...Anyone can attack Iran in a war, but if they fight back, they're terrorists.Is that your argument?

No, no, let me explain.Let me explain.If they fire back at the United States, they are returning fire at us.That's not terrorism, that's a war, right?If they are threatening to blow up non -US flagged, which they are, international ships, if they happen to pass by Iran, That is terrorism.And Pierce, let me use an example.

You wouldn't say that Al Qaeda controls American airports because we all have to go through the TSA to be concerned about whether they might blow up airplanes.Terrorism, that is what Iran is threatening.That's the most torturous argument I think I've ever heard.They are threatening.You're comparing the TSA?

to the straight -up foremost situation.

In the same way the TSA controls an airport, right, because they make sure that there are no terrorists trying to kill people, the United States blockade controls the straight -up foremost.

There isn't a blockade.They stopped the blockade after about two days because it wasn't working.No, the blockade is there.Iran can get their oil out.But tankers are coming through with Iran's permission.That's not a blockade, is it?

The tankers that are coming through are with Iran's permission, not America's.Where's the blockade?

Iran, Iranian oil is not going out unless the United States allows it.It's crazy that we allowed Iran to continue to pump.Even while we're bombing the country, we've allowed Iranian oil and gas to continue to be pumped.What right now, Piers, what they're running into is they don't have the capacity to store all the oil and gas in Iran, which is why their economy is in complete shame.

Well actually I've read that that is also a massive exaggeration of the reality and that they can keep this going for months and months without any problem.I don't know I'm just reading a lot of counter argument to that point which has been a point made a lot and I'm like I'm not really sure that's true.Let me bring Buckley back in.Buckley We're almost, I mean, in a way, the war has got asymmetric elements to it.This panel is now a completely asymmetric panel because you've got people who are wanting me to believe that America has full control of the Strait of Hormuz, that it's won the war militarily.So I'm not really sure what the problem is.

How is it that the rest of the world is looking at this going, where's all our energy?Why are gas prices going through the roof?Why is gas prices a pump in America?Double where it was.If everything is as you guys are trying to sell it to me, and it's a bit of snake oil stuff going on.here, then I don't know what the problem is.

It's terrorists are extracting the cost.I mean, why are the Iranians just handing over the uranium when we all go home?

That's why Clay's TSA analogy actually was accurate in that TSA doesn't keep Americans safer.It's a total absurd feeder.People are suffering as a result.The same thing is saying America decimated Iran's nuclear capability a year and a half ago, and now we're at war because we're worried about them having nuclear capability.It's ridiculous.We don't have control of the Strait of Hormuz.

That's just clearly obvious.By the way, if you're going to wear a red nose, Clay, I would say you should.But instead, you should go to Kentucky, talk to some of your relatives, maybe buy some gas for some of the people in Massey's district or in Nashville, or buy a five dollar gallon of milk for them.Let people.But honest question.I have a lot of friends.

Why did they not vote for Massey?

They didn't, they were completely deluged with foreign money.You, I mean, they were, yes, Trump had, yes, I would just say, let me go back, actually, let me ask you this question.You said that the money didn't have any effect, this was to introduce an unknown candidate, Gowrin, to the electorate.On the fact that the guy, all his constituents sheep, wouldn't actually debate Mazzei and said he was for a draft, what else is, what's the entirety of Gowrin's policies?What's his policy platform that $33 million actually conveyed?

It's a fair question.I trust the people of Kentucky's fourth congressional district to pick the person that they think best represents their interest.They believe, whether you agree or disagree with it, they believe that President Trump represents their interest better than Thomas Massey and anyone that Trump endorsed.Iwould have beaten Thomas Massey, just like in Indiana and just like in Louisiana.Trump is the most popular politician in any of these congressional districts that are represented by Republicans.

But if that's the case, if that's the case, all right, McClay, McClay, I'm not saying you're wrong, but if that's the case, why is Trump's personal approval rating so bad?If he's that popular, How can he be also simultaneously so unpopular?

It's a good question, Piers, and I would ask you this.Trump is the most popular politician in America right now.Who is a politician nationwide that has a higher approval rating than President Trump?I don't think there is one.There's no Democrat that's more popular than Trump.I think there's just a lot of angry people in America.

And maybe this panel here represents that pretty well.Whether you're a Democrat, whether you're a Republican, whether you're an independent, people are just angry.And if you want my theory on why that is, inflation went up so high, I understand it.Every time I go through a Chick -fil -A drive -thru for my three boys, I have to pay over $50 for a fast food meal.That is lunacy.Things cost way too much because inflation went to 9 % under Biden.

Affordability is by far the number one issue that people care about.and people haven't gotten used to how much everything skyrocketed in cost.

The problem is you see your red nose challenge, the risk I think to you in this and I'm going to include Will in this because he's pretty well launched himself under the same horse.is that you are making a bet that Trump, the great dealmaker, can extricate himself from this Iran war, and I'm not sure that he can.And I think the really interesting issue, which again brings it back to Israel, is that I think that Netanyahu issensing that Trump wants to get out of this.and he wants him to do the opposite he wants him to double and treble and quadruple down on the military side to try and destroy the regime get the uranium and so on so you're going to have competing national interests there the more that netanyahu is at war somewhere and currently he's at war there and in lebanon the more he's at war the more popular he gets within the confines of israel however if you're israeli i would say to you but your country becomes more unpopular around the world as a consequence.So where's the trade -off there?

Buckley, what was interesting was that Will posted something that Ted Cruz clearly enjoyed because he reposted it, which is this.We've got a picture of it here, claiming that Massie's kiss of death was when he was on Tucker, your brother's podcast.What do you feel about that allegation?

I think it's an absurd claim.Tucker is a journalist who gave Mazzi an opportunity to articulate his principled stance on things.They've been consistent for the 12 years he's been in Congress.It's in line with the program that Donald Trump has been articulating for more than 10 years as well, and exactly what people expected when they voted Donald Trump into office.So I'd love to see some exit polling from Kentucky.I haven't seen it.

I don't believe for a moment that what Will Chambers says is true.

So are you pretty convinced, Buckley, that it was the Israeli influence, it was the millions pumped in from the Israeli donors, and there was an Israeli component to why they wanted Massie to lose?It was because he was becoming ever more strident in his criticism of the Israeli government?

I think it's undeniable.Why else?What other rationale would there be for Mary Madelson, Paul Singer and John Paulson and others who've articulated their loyalty lies with Israel?that they want more, you know, Iran for Israel wars fought by America and they want more foreign funding.I don't know.

I just have to add one point to this because it's driving me insane.This narrative that, oh, he was mad at Thomas Massie because of the big beautiful bill and for his, and opposing the war in Iran.And that's what all of those people that are now on his list of the evil people that he wants to expel from MAGA have in common.It's not the big, beautiful bill.It's Israel and the Iran war.And if we're being honest, that is the only conclusion possible.

Will, what's your response to that?

Except, can I respond to this just quickly?Sure.Trump wanted Massie out before he ever bombed Iran the first time.In June of 2025, James Blair, who is President Trump's top advisor, posted on Twitter, I hope you enjoy your final term in Congress.There may be multiple reasons why Massey lost.The reason Trump wanted him out in particular was - That was when they bombed Iran, Clay, in June of 2025.

It was before they bombed Iran, they wanted him out over the big beautiful bill, they said you're gone.Israel was not even an issue at the point in time in 2025 when Trump said you're out.And so he does not like Thomas Massie.He hasn't liked him for years.Look, I like Massie.The truth of the matter is Kentucky 4th Congressional District members, the voters, they like Trump more than they like Massie.

And you can try to make as many different stories about this as you want, but ultimately, the people of Kentucky's 4th want somebody who is going to support Trump 100 % of the time.90 % is not enough from that district.And as a result, Trump is more popular and Massey lost.Now, if Massey has great arguments, I'd encourage him to run for president in 2028.Maybe the nation will respond better to his arguments.I love the marketplace of ideas.

His career is a Kentucky politician, I think is over.

It's just so funny when conservatives lose races, it's because of George Soros money and because the media is all aligned against them and all these institutions are against them.When a conservative gets the way they want in an election like Thomas Massie defeat, we go to third grade civics class and it's like a Jimmy Stewart movie.Oh, the citizens of Kentucky listen to both sides and they evaluated who they like best.Every president commands a cult of personality.

I watch Democrats.Your argument is that the people of Kentucky's 4th, who voted for 10 points for Galerine, which is really just an endorsement of Trump, aren't smart enough to vote in their own interest and made a poor choice.

and all kinds of being bombarded with media stories.This is something that conservatives don't just say about people in Kentucky.People like you say this about everyone in the country.

you use elections.Oh, the media tricked them.The people of Kentucky, I think, know President Trump pretty well at this point.

And I think they want somebody in that district.And it's going to represent him 100 % of the time.

They want a hundred percent support and that wasn't massive.

I don't even think in a third grade civics class they would they would descend to this level where they pretend that money in politics is a non -issue, that how many ads come on the air to convince people of things is a non -issue.

This is moronic, this is moronic.

He didn't have a single ounce of favoritism in any party that gets to the economy.I don't even know Galrand's name.He said the only thing he will do in Congress is whatever Trump tells him to.This had to do with demonizing Tom Massey.And she's one of the people I'm getting on these questions, Chris.

I have a final question.You agree with me.Guys, we're running out of time.I have a final question, which is that Donald Trump openly admitted he asked for a warm body that could beat Massey.And my question for you, Clay, is do you think that if it had been a cold body, literally a dead, cold body, could it have beaten Massey?

Well, I think Democrats elected a dead man in Pennsylvania recently.So look, I think that President Trump could have picked any candidate that was a reasonable representative for Kentucky's fourth and they would have beat Massey because he's more popular than Massey is and the people of Kentucky for 100 % support for Trump.Trump knew it.And the voters proved it.

We've got to leave it there.I will note, though, that the YouGov latest running poll of most popular politicians in America, of those who are currently still active politicians, Bernie Sanders is way more popular than Donald Trump.Elizabeth Warren is more popular than Donald Trump.Alexandria Ocasio - I don't like that at all, Piers.Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez is more popular.Zoran Mandani is more popular than Donald Trump.

Yes, that is not true.But I'm looking at it now.The YouGov most popular politician is America Poll.

Most people in America don't know who Elizabeth Warren is.They don't know Maumdani.I'm talking about nationwide political candidates.

If you are denouncing the rolling YouGov poll of popularity on those grounds, that is for you to do.

I can say they have no idea.YouGov is no idea what they're talking about, Peter.

What are you basing your claim on then, that Trump is the most popular president?I thought it was polling data.Exactly.

You just said all the polls show that Donald Trump is the most popular.So when you said all the polls, when you said he's the most popular guy polled in America and then we said but actually in all the polls he's not, you said well the polls are liars.So those things can't be true.

Here's just an easy question for you.What percentage of Americans do you think even know?Mom, Donny would recognize him in a photo.One hundred percent know Trump.Focus on Bernie.Bernie is more popular than Trump.

Everybody knows Bernie Sanders.Focus on Bernie Sanders.He's more popular than Trump.Then why isn't Bernie president?Why can't he even get the Democrat nomination?

You know what?Maybe he will be.That'll be another debate.Guys, I've got to leave it there.Thank you all very much indeed.Three people were killed in a suspected terror attack at San Diego's biggest mosque on Monday.

The two teenage suspects were found dead nearby with self -inflicted gunshot wounds.Both are said to be Nazi sympathisers, and the FBI is treating it as a hate crime.Many have been quick to draw a direct line between this attack and rising anti -Muslim rhetoric in public life.Republicans in Congress held a meeting on Sharia law just days earlier.Congressman Andy Ogles recently said that Muslims don't belong in American society, while Congressman Randy Fine said he prefers dogs.And the case for the defense was not helped this week by Laura Loomer, a confidant of the U .

S.president, who posted that people who go to the mosque want everyone killed.Well,Well, joining me now is Mehdi Hassan, founder of Zeteo.Mehdi, welcome back to Uncensored.

Thanks for having me, Piers.I wish it wasn't under these circumstances.

Yeah, well, me too.There's been a lot of debate, obviously, about anti -Jewish rhetoric and the impacts of that and incidents, awful incidents, in the UK and other places about that.Here we have an attack which appears to be motivated by a hatred of Muslims and Islam.Do you think it's getting the attention it would get had it been an attack on Jews, for example?

provocative question peers I expect nothing less from you I'll get in trouble whatever I say but look I think that the attacks on synagogues and mosques that we've seen recently are both horrific does one group get more coverage than the other yes I don't want to play that as some kind of you know it's not that I'm saying that Jewish victims of hate crime should get less coverage but clearly Muslims are treated as second -class citizens in this country not just by Republican right -wing politicians like the ones you named and I can name many more who have said viciously anti -muslim things but by by the media, by liberal media, by the Democratic Party, by ordinary Americans.And that's a reality.And I think that's the case in the U .K., as well, Piers, where we just had this rally against Muslims in London, which I know you've covered on your show.And we haven't seen the political establishment come down on that rally in the way they would if Tommy Robinson was saying things about Jews and Judaism in the way he does about Muslims and Islam.

I hope we can agree that, unfortunately, Islamophobia has been mainstreamed in America and the U .K.in a way that Thankfully, anti -Semitism still hasn't, although there has been an alarming rise in anti -Semitism across the political spectrum.On the subject specificity of the mosque and the shooters, you mentioned anti -Muslim.I just want to add here, if you look at the alleged manifestos from these two kids, these two teenagers, God help us that two teenagers came out.this murder, this terrorist attack.

If you look at the manifesto piece, they're anti -Semitic and Islamophobic.The manifesto has horrific stuff in there about Jews and about Islam as well.So Jonathan Friedland and I wrote a joint piece almost a decade ago pointing out that people who tend to be anti -Semitic also tend to be Islamophobic and vice versa.They're two sides of the same coin.That's really interesting.

I actually bumped into Jonathan Friedland at the Arsenal game the other night, randomly.I would like to have known that.It's a fascinating part of this.So what does that tell you, that extremism of all kinds eventually kind of meets, in terms of a lot of the ideology?

Well, I think with a specific type of extremism, which is white nationalists and Nazis—you know, and this is why people like myself have been very careful.I got attacked recently for being skeptical of, you know, the left getting into bed with MTG and Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, precisely for the reason that a lot of lefties admire those people now because they're criticizing Israel.And I worry that how much of that is driven by criticism of Israel, how much by anti -Semitism, how much will Muslims be on the receiving end of the hate once, quote -unquote, they're done with, you know, another And I just think minority communities need to stick together right now, because the far right hate all of us.The people who claim to be white Christian nationalists and who want this country to be a white Christian nation, they don't want any of us here, Jews or Muslims.And it's interesting to read this manifesto depressing.and see these two kids who were clearly radicalized, red -pilled online.

They're kids, for God's sake.They got radicalized online, clearly.They turn up wearing Nazi symbols and SS symbols.And yeah, the manifesto, and I don't know how authenticated it's been, but this is the manifestos that are attributed to them online, suggest that they hated Jews and Muslims.

So is it necessarily then a political issue?You know, you would, as you have done, you said that a lot of the rhetoric that comes from these Republican,hard -right conservatives has inflamed the mood.But are those two things consistent?Because obviously, if they're being anti -Semitic...

I think they are consistent.No, I think they are consistent, because it's all about what atmosphere you create in this country.And there's no denying the fact that since Donald Trump came on the scene in 2015, we now have an atmosphere in this country that is more hate -filled, with more hate crimes, more political violence, just a cruder, more toxic, more violent, more divisive atmosphere.

Right, but in 2025, there was more violence from the far left than there was from the right for the first time in a long time.And I found it incredibly disturbing...Well, the crucial statement is...Well, I found...Look, we'll come to the right part of this, but on the left, what I found increasingly disturbing to watch is the kind of callous inhumanity that a lot on the left show themselves to have when you look at, like, the murder of Charlie Kirk, for example, or the healthcare executive.

You know, I saw the front page of the New York Post yesterday with these three appalling women, young women, whose brains were so warmed.So they just want to be celebrating the cold -blooded murder of a father and husband in the streets of New York.So what is going on there?

So, let me just say two things about that.One is, I'm glad you said, for the first time in many years, because the reality is that for decades, and even now, right -wing violence is a huge problem in the United States, and people are in denial about this.Many of your guests have come on and just lied about the fact that political violence is not a right -wing problem.Sebastian Gorka, who runs the counterterrorism strategy for this government, just put out An anti -terrorism strategy appears from the Trump administration, which did not mention the far right.It mentioned the left.It mentioned Muslims.

It mentioned communists.Antifa doesn't mention the right, which is insane, when the majority of violence in this country in the recent years has come from the right.So that's one point.Number two, in terms of the reactions, I know you're not going to let me say this, but I think the evidence is with me, is that the people you cite, the people who do celebrate murder or say dumb shit or act callously are a fringe, Piers.When Charlie Coe was killed, everyone I saw mainstream leftist was not celebrating it and every single Democrat from Kamala Harris to Joe Biden to every Chuck Schumer was condemning it right and when when when any kind of political violence happens mainstream people on the center left whether it's in the Labour Party in the UK or the Democratic Party in the US called it out.Can I finish my point?

Can I finish my point?I'm just challenging that one.Let me finish my point.I would challenge one thing on that there's just there were university professors there were doctors, nurses, teachers.There were people in real positions of authority and responsibility that were quite happy to post videos of themselves celebrating Charlie Coe's murder.

No, I'm going to dispute that.Texas, who said something awful.They have not condemned a terrorist attack in the United States.That's one point.You can't find Democrats who do the same when there's a synagogue attack or anything equivalent.And then, of course, there's no one on the Democratic side who's talking like Laura Loomer.

There just isn't.Find me one person.Imagine, Piers, I said this on Twitter.Imagine if an adviser to Joe Biden, a close friend and ally of Biden, when Biden was president, after a synagogue was attacked, had said the synagogue was evil and that all Jews should be removed from the U .S.It would have been the end of the Biden presidency.

YouYou would have been on a roll loop for seven days straight.We know this.And yet Republicans get away with this stuff.You mentioned Andy Ogles.It's not just Andy Ogles.

It's Representative Brandon Gill, who said Islamic immigration is killing us.Chip Roy, Representative Chip Roy of Texas, who said no more Muslims, he said in March, in a tweet.You have, of course, Randy Fine, who you've had on this show, who said mainstream Islam, not Islamism, not jihadism, mainstream Islam is an evil death cult, he said.If you're telling me that doesn't contribute to an atmosphere where people might want to pick up weapons and attack Muslims and mosques, I don't know what to say to you.

Well, yeah, I mean, I had this debate with Jonathan Conricus yesterday, the former IDF spokesman, because...I saw it.At the Tommy Robinson march, there were speakers brazenly talking about removing Islam from all aspects of politics and authority in the UK.They weren't saying Islamists or extremists or anything.They were just basically...And of course, you know, Islam is followed by Muslims.

They were basically just saying, get the Muslims out.And Jonathan was trying to defend this and happy to say he attended the march and, you know, wasn't phased by what he heard.And I was like, but imagine if it had been about Jews there.Imagine if they said we're going to get all the Jews out of Parliament.all the Jews out of local -level politics in the UK.All hell would have broken loose.

Now, conversely...

By the way, by the way, by the way, can I just add to that, Piers?I'm glad you pushed Jonathan Conricus on that.And you know what he said to you in response?He said, oh, it wasn't about Muslims.It was about Islam, which is this kind of very lazy distinction.What Islamism, he called it.

Because it's interesting that in the shoot...Well, no, he tried to distinguish between the fact that the speaker who you referenced said Islam and not Muslims, as if that's some kind of get -out.I would point to the Shooter's Manifesto in San Diego, where the shooter specifically says, Piers, in the manifesto, I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam.It's the same get -out that even mass murderers are using.

Yeah, because my point is always, I hate extremists.I don't care if they're Muslim extremists or Christian extremists.So do I. Or any extremist.or Jewish extremists.Some of the activities we're seeing on the West Bank right now are the worst kind of extremist terrorism.

The Israeli finance minister said yesterday he's going to ethically cleanse an entire Palestinian town.

Yeah, I saw it.You know my view of Ben Gavir and Smodrich.I think they're genuinely evil people.When someone is given, as Ben Gavir was recently, a 50th birthday present from his own wife, which has a noose on a cake, You're dealing with psychopathic mentality.And I don't care who doesn't want to hear that, you are.And if it was the other side, if you were seeing Hamas commanders do that, people would say, look at them, they're psychopaths.

So I think you've got to be intellectually honest about this.Talking of which, we did a bit of research into hate crimes targeting people for their religious beliefs.In 2025, the FBI said that nearly 70 % of US religion -based hate crimes targeted Jews.So, and in October 2023, FBI Director Christopher Wray in the Biden administration warned the U .S.was reaching historic levels of anti -Semitism.

So although Jews make up only 2 .4 % of U .S.public, they account for about 60 % of all religious -based hate crimes, which was nearly a 10 % increase at the time.And in the UK, the Home Office said hate crimes against Muslims are almost twice as likely to result in prosecution than those against Jews.So there's a lot of statistics here.which, when you take them together, would suggest that there is more hate crime against Jews than there is against Muslims.

What would you say to that?

Yeah, I'm not trying to play a victim Olympics here.I think there are far too many hate crimes across the board.I'm on the left, Piers.I don't like hate crimes in general.I'm worried about the rise of the far right, and I'm worried about hatred and bigotry.I'm not happy that Donald Trump pardoned a guy who wore a Camp Auschwitz t -shirt to January the 6th.

and now that guy might be able to get millions of dollars of tax money from a slush fund that Donald Trump just created.So I'm against pardoning anti -Semitic rioters.I'm against being soft on anti -Semitic criminals.I don't think two things are inconsistent, though, Piers, which is to say, number one, there's a lot of anti -Semitic hate crimes out there.Right?I've written about them.

There were two horrific synagogue attacks under Donald Trump's first presidency, if you remember, by far -right activists, not by far -left activists.But at the same time, we should also acknowledge, gladly, that at least we take antisemitism seriously as a society, as a media, as a country.No one would say that the governments of the countries are not taking it seriously.Donald Trump has set up multiple antisemitism investigations, task forces.Republicans in Congress have held, like, I think a dozen hearings on antisemitism.Do you know how many they've held on Islamophobia?

None.Not a single specific hearing on Islamophobia.So it's not about who's prosecuted more, who's attacked more.We agree that many communities are taking the brunt of it.Jews, the oldest hatred, are facing lots of anti -Semitism.What Muslims are upset about is that anti -Muslim hatred is mainstreamed and normalised in this country in a way that anti -Semitism or anti -black racism or homophobia is not mainstreamed and normalised.

That's what people are upset about.

Right.There's also a kind of weird campaign, I think, dispute that Islamophobia even exists as a thing, which I haven't heard anybody argue about anti -Semitism or racism or any of the other things.It's almost like there are up to two billion Muslims on planet Earth.Islamophobia is a thing.I see it all the time on social media, where people don't object to parts of the Islam faith or teachings.They hate Muslims and they make no bones of it.

That is Islamophobia.And you know, my argument with someone like Tommy Robinson, he says, well, I've got Muslim friends and so on.But he only ever posts on his social media feed.crimes that are committed largely by Muslims.That's his thing.So he's telling millions of people all the time that there's just this big problem with Muslims committing despicable crimes.

And yet when I have people on who want to support him, I say, yeah, but the vast majority of crime in the UK, for example, including sex crimes against women, is perpetrated by white men.statistically, it's just a fact.And then they get into, you know, percentages and prorate and all that kind of thing.And it's not an illegitimate...There's a bigger issue.But it's exaggerated for a reason.

You and I have debated the rape issue.You and I have debated the rape issue.And one thing I would say without wanting to relitigate all of that is what's even worse than the whole argument about are you overrepresented, underrepresented is Even when we talk about rape gangs, we say Islamic rape gangs, Pakistani Muslims.Which other crime do we define by religion?Imagine if I came on this show and I said Bernie Madoff, the Jewish financier who ripped people off during the financial crisis, you would say that's anti -Semitic.Legitimately so.

We never define crimes by religion except when it's a Muslim.Well, it's true, because if I ask Tommy Robinson...Then it becomes the Muslim criminal, the Muslim terrorist.

Yeah, no, I agree with you.So if Tommy Robinson came on here, and he won't for reasons that are obvious, because he doesn't want to have to repeat his lies, which got him into prison, because he knows I'd test him and then he'd go back to prison.But if he did, I'd say, look, of all the white male sex crimes against women perpetrated in the UK each year, how many are perpetrated by white Christians?He would have no idea.He wouldn't know.So that's to your point.

But you start talking about any crimes perpetrated by Muslims, he'd have all the statistics he could possibly want to have.In other words, he's willfully blind.to the fact that there could be any crime committed by Christians.Well, he's a bigot, Piers.

You're being very polite.He's a bigot.And when you're a bigot, you focus only on one thing.When you're an anti -Semitic bigot, you focus on Jews.When you're anti -Christian, you focus on Jews.a bigot.

to and killed him, Balbir Singh Sodhi.Did you know that the other day in the UK, a man raped a Sikh woman?And as he raped her, he attacked her for being a Muslim.The headlines in the British media just mentioned that she was a Sikh woman, didn't mention that it was an anti -Muslim motivated hate crime by an idiotic bigot who thought she was a Muslim woman, the poor woman.

Are you concerned about the fact that there are apparently approaching 100 unofficial, because they're not legal in the UK, but Sharia courts operating in the UK?Does that concern you?

No, because, number one, I don't know about those numbers.In the past, when I looked into this subject myself, A, the numbers are exaggerated.B, a lot of what these Sharia courts do is personal civil stuff, which is not criminal, does no weight of law.It's a way for married couples to also get an Islamic divorce, not just a civil divorce.And by the way, again, not wanting to play the double standard game, but I can't help it here.I mean, I find it astonishing that a lot of right -wing Jewish people, who hate Muslims now because they're

are going on about Sharia courts and ignoring the fact—you know, Melanie Phillips comes to mind.The Beth Din, the Jewish community in the U .K.has religious courts called the Beth Din.If you're going to ban all religious courts, fine with me, but just be consistent.

What about the issue of mass migration, generally?I mean, it's indisputable, for example, that we now have millions more Muslims who've come into the country than were here 30 years ago, right, for example.And obviously, then the Muslim population in the UK will grow exponentially as a consequence of that.And, you know, we can...I'm not going to debate the fact that successive governments, left and right, have completely had a sort of fiasco series of policies about immigration generally, I think, which has created a lot of the tension and problems in the country, which then get exaggerated and used for political reasons.But in terms of mass migration, many people I speak to, very smart people, who don't really have a horse in the race, who are just trying to look at this dispassionately, say that this issue of mass migration, and the issue of millions of Muslims for example along with other groups of people that inevitably that will have an impact on any society that they go to.

Do you accept that argument?I mean if the argument being if you suddenly put you know five million Christians into Saudi Arabia, for example.It would obviously have an impact on the society, on the country, on the way it operated.It would probably lead to a lot of fear and resentment from Muslims there and so on.Do you understand that argument?Do you accept it?

Do you think there are reasons to be sensible about this?

I understand it.I don't accept the premise, because five million Muslims did not just land in the West.This happened, you know, immigration happened over time.And of course, you're not counting the fact that many of the millions of Muslims who live in the Westlike myself, are born and raised in the West.Many are second, third, fourth generation now.

You know, I have friends who are grandparents who were born in the U .K.Their grandkids are now born in the U .K.or the U .S.

So this idea of making it about migration is kind of absurd.You look at some of, you know, you look at the mayor of London, who attracts so much hate and attention, partly because of your old pal Donald Trump, who's targeted him and now Tommy Robinson and others and Elon Musk.Sadiq Khan is born in London, raised in London, is the mayor of London for eternal and immigration fan of Angela Merkel, but that was a big, bold move that may have, you know, eventually cost her political career legacy.But there are many people in Germany who would argue that many of those Syrians were well -integrated.Now, people on the German right say, oh, there's an increase in crime and this and that.There's a big debate about those statistics.

And who is perpetrating those crimes?Is it newcomers?Is it single young men from countries in the last few years?Actually, was the Syrian diaspora actually well -integrated?Did Angela Merkel do a good job?But, you know, the idea that in the U .

K.or the U .S.there's been some flooding of Muslims, I mean, Piers, we're talking about—look at Texas, for example.There is a moral panic, a hysteria in Texas about Muslims taking over the state.Muslims make up a tiny, tiny percent, less than 5 percent, of the state of Texas is Muslim.

Meanwhile, Republican politicians are running on, we must ban Sharia law, we must stop Muslim mosques.How am I supposed to take that seriously?That is sheer fear -mongering, hysteria -mongering.That is a creation of a moral panic around the minority community that is going on.already facing attacks on its mosques.And I think the key point is to push back against the lies that surround a lot of this debate.

That's what I've been doing for 20 years.One of the reasons why a lot of the people that go on these marches with Tommy Robinson, look, some of them are absolute Neanderthal thugs.Of course they are.You can see it when they post stuff.But there are other people there for perfectly well -intentioned reasons.You feel like they're losing the identity of their country.

You know, they would have grown up in families believing that England, for example, was predominantly a white Christian country, and they feel it's changed very rapidly, and that there's a possibility, the way things are going, that in 50 years' time, it could be a Muslim -majority country, and that you would lose the identity in the family.So this is a genuine concern that they have, right?Would that be a concern to you?Should England be ever a majority Muslim country?

not through some conspiracy.But, you know, last time I checked, it's a free country.So, you know, it depends what happens to, you know, it's.America, obviously, is different.There is no established church.It's a very, very secular country with a separation of church and faith.

Despite what the rights say, the founders did not build this country as a Christian country.Anyone can be American at any time.It's one of the great virtues.And I have become an American myself.The UK, obviously, you could argue established religion, Church of England, et cetera.And by the way, when you poll people in the UK, Piers, do you know who supports the monarchy and the Church of England more than above average?

Muslims do.Yeah, I know.I've seen that, yeah.Muslims like the idea of established religion.It gives their faith great protections.And a lot of Muslims are fans of Charles, who's been a great defender of faiths, as he famously put it.

But on the numbers, I just want to go back to your point about the concern.People do—I'm not saying that everyone on the march is some crazy racist thug, but they have all been misinformed and brainwashed and propagandized to.You look at the interviews that were done with some of these marchers.They believe crazy numbers.They believe that Muslim populationsLook at the interviews that were done with some of these marchers.

Isn't it interesting that people in areas where there aren't many immigrants, where there hasn't been much demographic change, they're the most hostile to immigration, because they see on TV and in their papers, this is happening in London or Birmingham.And in London and Birmingham, people are fine about it.You live in London, you know people get along great in cities where there are migrants.So I find the polling shows, and it's shown this for years in the U .K., that the most anti -immigrant people in the U .

K.tend to live in places where there are very few immigrants.

And therefore, most of their information about migrants and immigration is coming from I think conversations like the ones you and I have regularly are really important for the public to be able to listen to sensible conversation about it because one of the problems with the Tommy Robinson phenomenon other than he goes to America and just lies to his back teeth about everything, including himself, and spells this sort of doom -laden, apocalyptic view of England being run over by Muslims and so on, which is absurd.But, of course, if you look at the grooming rape gang scandal in the north of England, it was a genuinely horrific scandal.It was perpetrated by predominantly Pakistani -British Muslim men against white young girls women and it was covered up at all branches of authority and the law out of a fear that if you had the conversation out loud and said what had been happening it would inflame enormous racial tensions.Every part of that is wrong.and it seems to me the only way that you can cut through that is to have genuine open dialogue with people like we've just been having, right?Where you talk about these things in a way that maybe people can listen to and it's not driven by violent extremist rhetoric that everything's about to end if you don't do that.

And, Piers, look, can I add something to that, which is, of course, what happened was horrific.Those communities need to have long, hard discussions about what happened.The police, I've come on your show before and talked about the role of the police in that cover -up, horrific, which wasn't necessarily driven by political correctness.There was a lot of corruption and crime involved there, a lot of money exchanging hands there.But without wanting to relitigate that, I would make a broader point, which is, I get that I want to be able to talk about crimes committed by people in my community.I've been someone who's been condemning al -Qaeda and terrorism for years.

You can see my journalistic record goes back 15 years on this stuff.But the problem I have is I can't do it if all of that stuff is always weaponized by the Tommy Robinsons and the Elon Musks and the Donald Trumps of this world.And the classic example is the rape story, because you want me to believe that Tommy Robinson and Elon Musk give a shit about Women and rape, don't make me laugh.They support Donald Trump, a man who was found liable for sexual abuse.They support all sorts of other people who have been involved in all sorts—look, don't even get me started on the Epstein affair and who was involved in that.So, it's very hard for me to believe that this is being driven by good -intentioned people.

These are people who are—they are vultures.They come to the scene of a tragedy, and they try and take it to weaponize it for their own preconceived racist political agendas.I think we need to be able to say that, while also acknowledging we're not downplaying the crimes that were committed.

Finally, Mitty, you're a Liverpool supporter, I understand.You've obviously had a terrible season.I'm an Arsenal supporter.We've obviously just won the Premier League and probably about to win the Champions League.I just wonder whether you want to take this opportunity.

wouldn't have agreed to come on the show if I'd known we were going in this direction.

Well, I just thought if you just wanted to make a statement of how, you know, of congratulations to Arsenal on their triumph.

I don't really want to, but I will if you expect me to.Congratulations to you, Piers, and to Arsenal.Look, I grew up in the 1990s, and most of my period as a Liverpool fan was seeing Liverpool win nothing.I basically became a Liverpool fan after the glory years of the 80s.I spent much of my life seeing Liverpool win nothing.My daughter is now a mad Liverpool fan.

She gets to see them win two Premiership titles.I didn't.So in a sense, them not winning this season has just kind of returned to form for me.

Well, I had the opposite, because my sons, who are 32 down to 25, they spent 22 years waiting for us to win a league after we'd won it five times in 15 years.I got spoiled.My kids got deprived.So last night, my eldest boy went up to the Emirates Stadium.It was like a scene out of Fever Pitch, the movie.And there they were, The Horde, The Thousands, a very multicultural group.

at Arsenal as well, I might add.Jews, Muslims, Christians, white, black, brown.The best of British.The best of London.I made the point that ironically, I think there were more people outside the Emirates Stadium outside at midnight who were genuinely uniting the kingdom than had taken part in Tommy Robinson's rather divisive and polarising Unite the Kingdom march.And if you want to see multiculturalism at its best, go to somewhere like a football stadium when a team's won.

Nobody cares.who you are or what you are.They just looked around and saw fellow Arsenal fans having a great time.There's a message there for everyone.

There is a message for everyone.Can I just say one thing on that, since we talked a lot about Islamophobia and we talked about communities.One of the great studies, my favourite academic study, is the study that found that when Mo went to play for Liverpool, Islamophobiahate crimes went down in Liverpool.

Yeah, it says it all.Mehdi, always good to talk to you.Thank you very much indeed for taking the time.Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent.The only boss around here is me.If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing.

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