Taiwan’s violent, messy, beautiful democracy | If You're Listening

In Australia, we often say that our politicians act like schoolchildren while they're in parliament.

I'm not going to attack the school.You sit down, Buffett.

Growling and dog noises.

My feet!

But in Taiwan, the connection between the parliament and school is a bit more explicit.

The building in Taipei's Zhongzhen district was Taipei's second girls' high school in the Japanese colonial era.

Many of the parliament's offices and committee rooms are former classrooms.

After 60 years in a former girls school in Taipei, many think a change of scene is needed.

But I don't think that any high school in the world experiences as much violence between its students as the Taiwanese parliament.Taiwan's parliament is famous for its brawls.From what I can tell, the violence is of two different types.One is kind of theatrical.It happens in the parliamentary chamber itself, where the governing party and opposition physically fight over who will sit in the Speaker's chair and direct proceedings.

It doesn't actually stop legislation from passing.

It's more about making it very obvious how much you oppose it.But there's another type of violence that happens in the committee rooms, which of course were former classrooms.On the 5th of May 1993, there were two such incidents.One involved a lawmaker jumping over a table and taking a big swing at one of his opponents, who he thought had said something rude about his mother.Then, that afternoon, there was another incident.heated discussion about spending on veterans affairs.

Suddenly, a nationalist KMT legislator called Han Guo -yu thought he heard opposition MP Chen Shui -bian call tyrannies veterans pigs.Han went up to the table Chen was sitting at and flipped it.And then moments later when Chen went and sat at a different table, Han walked up behind him with his hands in his pockets.Then he pulled his left hand out and slapped Chen as hard as he could right in the face.Chen was completely unprepared to be sucker punched out of nowhere in the middle of a parliamentary committee meeting.He was taken to hospital with swelling in his jaw and a concussion.

This particular series of events is extraordinary for a lot of reasons, but mostly because of what ended up happening to the two people involved, Han Kuo -yu and Chen Shui -bian.Since that slap, Han and Chen have become two of the most prominent people in Taiwanese politics, representing the two major parties, the KMT and the DPP.One of them became president of Taiwan.The other is the Speaker of the House.One was shot and went to prison.The other has been called the Taiwanese Trump.

So today, we're following the extraordinary journey of these two men through Taiwanese democracy, because it turns out that punch was just the beginning.I'm Matt Bevin, and this is If You're Listening.So we've got two stories to tell in this episode, the perspective of the puncher and the punchy.So let's start with the punchy, Chen Shui -bian, a member of the Democratic Progressive Party, or the DPP.On the 19th of March 2004, Chen was back in the hospital.This time, it wasn't because of being punched in the head, it was because he had been shot.

Details are still sketchy, Mark.What we do know is that President Chen Shui -bian has been taken to hospital with a stomach wound.There are reports that it's a deep wound, blood pouring out.

Now, you may have heard the word President there, and that's because in the time between getting punched and getting shot, Chen had quite a bit of political success, so let me just get you up to speed on his career.

He's the classic underdog of Asian politics, a dissident who was jailed for his beliefs, with a wife who was paralyzed in what some claim was a politically motivated attack.

She was run over three times by a man in a tractor in 1985.Safe to say these guys have experienced quite a bit of adversity.But that's just how things went at the time for people who prominently opposed the Kuomintang or the KMT, the nationalist party which controlled Taiwan under a military dictatorship from the 1940s right up until the 1990s.We covered that in our last episode.Chen Shui -bian was a member of the DPP, the chief opposition party to the KMT.When Taiwan became democratic in the 1990s, Chen was one of the most prominent figures in the DPP.

In 1994, he became mayor of Taipei.In 2000, to the KMT's horror, he was elected president.

The main beef between the KMT and the DPP was that the two parties fundamentally disagreed on the future of Taiwan.Historically, the KMT's position was that Taiwan would one day take back the mainland.whereas the DPP saw Taiwan as an independent country.state, its own country, essentially.But while Chen and the DPP believed Taiwan should be independent, they didn't actually declare independence, even when they controlled the entire government.

The people of Taiwan live in a fragile state of de facto independence, neither able to declare their independence, nor willing to succumb to China's communist regime.

Why the fragile limbo?Why the de facto independence without actually declaring it?Well, the mainland's enormous military exercises simulating an invasion of Taiwan had a little bit to do with it.

The Chinese military has stepped up its rhetoric since Chen came to power, making clear it will attack if it feels Taiwan is moving toward a formal declaration of independence.

Chen was elected in 2000, but his popularity soon began to slip.And by the time the next election campaign came around in 2004, he was trailing badly in the polls.Because rising tension with the mainland and poor economic performance were making voters consider reverting back to KMT control.His party knew that to shift the dial, they would need to redirect the narrative towards concerns about a mainland invasion.and the KMT's dark past.So on the 28th of February, the anniversary of the 1947 massacre of Taiwanese people by KMT troops, the DPP organized a massive rally, and I mean truly massive.

Around 2 million people joined hands to form a 500 kilometer long human chain from the northern to the southern end of Taiwan.as a symbol of resistance against authoritarianism of all kinds.Chen's poll numbers began to turn.But as the election campaign reached the final stages, it became increasingly ugly for both parties.

Newspaper ads compared the president to Hitler and urged voters to get rid of the dictator.His wife was accused of insider trading.His opponent's wife was forced to deny that her husband beats her.

And then the day before the election.

During a campaign stop in the south of the island, he was either shot or hit by some sort of firecracker.The reports are still mixed.There's still great confusion.

Chen had been standing next to his vice presidential candidate in the back of an open -topped car during a rally when both he and the vice president felt a hot searing pain.Him across his stomach and her across her knee.

He was rushed to hospital for emergency treatment.His office later releasing graphic photos of his wounds.

Initially, they thought that it was firecrackers, but it wasn't.

Two bullets were fired.Police say they do not know who fired them or why.

Fortunately, their wounds were superficial and both were able to return to campaigning that same day.

I can be knocked down, but the determination of 23 million Taiwanese people to pursue democracy will not be knocked down.

The following day, Chen was declared the winner of the election.

13 million people cast ballots, but the winning margin was just 30 ,000 votes.I urge China to respect the decision of the Taiwanese people.We love democracy and we love peace.

Now, ideally, the story would end there with the love and the peace, but I think it's If democracy was that easy, I'd be out of a job.Truth is, democracy is very messy.It relies as much on the behaviour of the losing party as it does on the result of the election.We all remember what happened in 2020 in the United States.when Donald Trump refused to accept that he had lost Joe Biden.Well, what happened in Taiwan 16 years earlier was surprisingly similar.

Chen's nationalist KMT opponent started to raise suspicion that the election eve assassination attempt was not all that it seemed.It is not a fair election.The shooting has never been clearly explained.In Taiwan, there's as much debate and suspicion about the attempted assassination of Chen as there is about the actual assassination of John F. Kennedy in the US.Supporters of Chen thought it was a plot by the mainland.His opponents said it was an attempt by Chen to gain a sympathy vote, or...

It was a pretext to cover up election fraud.

Conspiracy theories and speculation were rife.

Back to the president's wound, the width, the depth, the what looks to be cauterisation of the wound.To the best of my knowledge, no bullet can do that justice.

I think he lied.And he staged the shooting stunt.He had to cover up his lie one after another.And it was just like water game.The whole thing was most likely fake.

By the time the police traced the bullets to the place they'd been purchased, the man who'd bought them was dead in an apparent suicide, and his suicide notes had been burned by his family.Nationalist KMT leaders never accepted that it was the work of a lone gunman.

We simply believe that the presidency is illegitimate.One half believe he's a crook, the other half believe he's a president.

The extraordinary thing about this incident is that while in the US in 2020 the democracy kind of...crumbling after the disputed election, in Taiwan it didn't.Nobody stormed the girls' high school slash parliament building.The army didn't intervene.The nationalist KMT politicians just went back to work.Disgruntled, certainly, but knowing that Chen wouldn't be able to run again in four years.

The attitude was, we'll get him next time, not grab your torch and pitchforks and your Viking helmet.There was no need for violence outside the capital in Taipei, and as for allegations of the system being rigged in favour of Chen Shui -bian...Well, remember that thing about his wife being accused of corruption?

For months now, Taiwan has been rocked by a corruption scandal as complex and bizarre as any soap opera.

The president's wife said there was nothing wrong with her use of government expense accounts.

But...The prosecutor disagreed, laying charges against the first lady and two senior presidential aides.He also warned that Chen could be charged when he loses presidential immunity.

And the KMT, which was patiently waiting to get them next time, definitely got their wish.Not only did they win the 2008 election, but 14 months later, Chen and his wife had been convicted of corruption and sentenced to prison time.The system worked as designed.And being the former president wasn't enough to make Chen immune.So that's the story of the guy who received the punch.What about Han Kuo -yu from the nationalist KMT?

The guy who did the punching?Well, to find out what happened to him, we need to go to the southern tip of Taiwan.The port of Kaohsiung.If Taipei was Taiwan's political and financial capital, Kaohsiung was its industrial and trade capital.

Taiwan's biggest and one of the top three container ports in the world.

Kaohsiung was a stronghold for the Democratic Progressive Party, Chen's party.The DPP dominated local politics there.

DPP figures have occupied the mayor's seat in Kaohsiung for two decades.

But like many industrial cities in developed countries in the 21st century, Kaohsiung began to fall on hard times.Young people struggled to find good jobs and began moving to Taipei for better opportunities.By the mid 2010s, there was an increasing feeling of stagnation and people started looking for someone to stir things up a bit.Noted head puncher Han Guo Yu put his hand up to be that someone.

Han Guo Yu has been chosen to run for mayor of the city after a party primary conducted by poll.

After the Nationalist KMT nominated him for mayor.Han told the voters of Kaohsiung, it was time for a change.

Kaohsiung doesn't owe the DPP anything at all.After 20 years, the 20 years the DPP has been empowering Kaohsiung, I can sum it up in just four words, outdated and hard up.

Han Guoyu had been out of parliament for more than a decade at this point, running a fruit and vegetable wholesale market.He called himself the bald guy who sells vegetables to give himself a relatable normal guy vibe.But when it came to his actual campaign to boost the economy of the port city, it was anything but normal.He promised that if elected, he would build a love ferris wheel.Think like the London Eye, but each pod is a private motel room.It's for people interested in joining the 10th of a mile high club, if you know what I mean.

He also promised that he had secured a deal to get Taiwan's first Disneyland resort opened in Kaohsiung, and that he would bring Arnold Schwarzenegger, Formula One racing, horse racing and casinos to the city.How did he propose to pay for all this?Well, by givingfor oil in the Taiwan Strait off the coast of Kaohsiung, of course.

One scholar believes that Han rose to stardom on the strength of personal charisma and a nimble digital campaign.Others say he gained momentum with his promises to stimulate Kaohsiung's economy.It worked.

Han struck a chord with the people of Kaohsiung and redrew the political map.But Han faces a hard road ahead as he works to make good on his promise to revitalise Kaohsiung.

Han's victory in Kaohsiung was seismic.Not quite as unexpected as Donald Trump's victory in 2016, but in the same ballpark.A populist, promising things he had no real possibility of delivering.Succeeding in a campaign he had been given no chance of winning.Needless to say, Arnold Schwarzenegger had no knowledge of the fact that he'd agreed to visit a Taiwanese port city.I don't do requests.

Disney didn't know they were building a new resort there either, but it didn't seem to matter.While much of Taiwan's media mocked him as a clown, some media outlets began to promote him relentlessly.On the day he was elected, a TV station called CTI TV reported that an auspicious cloud had been seen over Gaoxiang in the shape of a phoenix.CTI also claimed that 800 ,000 people attended his victory rally, which would be like nearly half the population of Gaoxiang.The real number was probably less than 10 % of that.But a guy with that much support and such auspicious meteorology must be on to something.

So the KMT decided to try and take Han's vibe national.

The KMT's chairman is scheduled to sit down with Kaohsiung Mayor Han next Tuesday.The KMT is considering tailoring its candidate selection process to favor Han.

Polling for the upcoming presidential election showed Han leading the incumbent DPP.president Tsai Ing -wen 52 to 34.He had been positioning himself not only as a populist, but as a man who could stabilise economic relations with mainland China.

President Tsai's main opponent, a city mayor named Han Kuo -yu, sees better ties with China as a way to kickstart Taiwan's economy.

In early 2019, he travelled to the mainland for meetings.

During his time across the strait, Han had met Chinese officials.Han had touted his trip as a trade mission.

While the DPP carried on about the threat of China and toyed with declaring independence in Taiwan, Han wanted to show that he could build a working relationship with Beijing and keep the status quo.While the majority of Taiwanese people wanted to maintain Taiwan's de facto independence, polls indicated that more and more people were interested in working towards reunification with the mainland in the long term.But all that changed when Chinese President Xi Jinping pulled the rug out from under Han and made him fall flat on his face.It wasn't due to anything that happened in Taiwan or even on the mainland.It was due to something that happened in Hong Kong.

A wild brawl has erupted in Hong Kong's parliament over plans to allow suspected criminals to be sent to mainland China for trial.

Hong Kong, which did not have a tradition of parliamentary brawls, started emulating Taiwan.

Several people were injured, including a pro -democracy MP who attempted to crowd surf, but fell to the floor and was taken to hospital.

At issue was a law that would allow people to be detained in Hong Kong and extradited to mainland China for trial.The fear was that this would be used to crack down on free speech in Hong Kong.

The tension wasn't only visible in Beijing.

it was on the streets of Hong Kong too.

Proud and passionate, these Hong Kongers are marching in solidarity for one cause.To preserve their freedoms and rule of law.

Hong Kong had been under Chinese control for more than 20 years, but had retained democratic freedoms under the one country, two systems agreement.This agreement was seen as a blueprint for what it might be like for Taiwan to unify with the mainland.

While China maintains the threat of military force, it hopes Taiwanese can be persuaded to accept the same one country, two systems deal that Hong Kong has.

Now, Beijing was unilaterally altering the deal.

effectively ending the one country, two systems arrangement.

In Taiwan, this amendment caused a sudden, dramatic shift in public opinion.

The unrest in Hong Kong makes us focus on our democracy, on protecting our independence.

In April, Han Kuo -yu was 18 points ahead of President Tsai.By late June they were neck and neck and by October he was 18 points behind her.

President Tsai has cast herself as the defender of this island's democracy and she's played off the recent unrest in Hong Kong saying she's best placed to resist China's pressure.

Han's outrageous claims and penchant for promising things he had no ability to deliver meant that left -wing media started referring to him as Taiwanese Trump.But he really leant into it and started calling the polls fake and encouraging his supporters to lie if they were called by pollsters.He also startedmaking racist comments about Filipinos and migrant workers and rekindled conspiracy theories about the 2004 attempted assassination of Chin, the guy he punched in the face.In the end, the election result wasn't close at all.

Tsai Ing -wen made it clear her thumping victory was a message to Beijing that Taiwanese people won't give in to China's efforts to isolate and marginalise them.

As if losing the presidential election wasn't enough of an insult for Han Kuo -yu, his support back in Kaohsiung, where he was still the mayor, collapsed.

It was clear that the passion that Kaohsiung residents had for the KMT's failed presidential candidate has all but faded.

In fact, Han tanked the election so badly that voters also petitioned to sack him from his mayoral office.And they were successful.

The KMT's Han Kuo -yu has become the first mayor in Taiwan's history to be recalled.

97 percent of voters decided they wanted him gone.It was the first time a Taiwanese mayor had been sacked by voters before their term was even finished.But he wasn't gone for long.The KMT parachuted him back into the national parliament four years later in 2024 and appointed him Speaker of the House.In this role, he's helped reshape Taiwan's national policies towards being more friendly with China, including a cut to defence spending.Han now works out of the room that was once the principal's office at Taipei's number two girls high school.

trying to physically fight off opposition politicians who occasionally try to occupy his podium.There is still no consensus among Taiwanese people about what they want their country to be in the distant future.Some want to be unified with the mainland.Others want to be free.But there is a strong consensus about what they want in the short term.The same thing they've wanted since polling began in the early 1990s.

They want things to stay the same.They want the status quo.They want to live their lives normally, the way they've lived them for decades.In a safe country, enjoying the freedoms they won.when they dismantled the KMT -led military dictatorship more than three decades ago.Many think that pursuing independence would threaten their safety.

It may lead to war with mainland China.Many think that unifying with mainland China would threaten their freedoms.They saw what happened in Hong Kong.They know what Beijing's promise of one country, two systems really means.At a time when voters in many democracies feel like major parties are basically just offering the same thing with different packaging, these two parties are offering a genuine choice.The DPP leans towards independence, while the KMT advocates for closer ties with mainland China.

Despite being stuck on an island for nearly eight decades, there are still members of the KMT who don't see mainland China as a separate country.It's just the rest of China.It's still an us, not a them.Which explains why earlier this year, Zhang Liwen, the woman who is the presumptive KMT nominee for president in 2028, travelled to Beijing to meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping.

General Secretary Xi Jinping says the meeting is of great significance for developing relations between the two parties and across the Taiwan Strait.

And it also explains why back in Taiwan, members of the DPP basically accused her of treason.The thing is that these two parties are kind of in a stalemate.The people of Taiwan aren't committing to either side.They seem to just vote for the party they think will maintain their safety and freedom in the short term.Do we need warmer mainland relations at the moment or do we need to pull back?For nearly 40 years, the people of Taiwan have done something incredible.

They've maintained that status quo.They have stayed out of war.They have retained their freedom.When elections are disputed, the high school doesn't burn down.When politicians are corrupt, they go to jail.When mayors become unpopular, they get sacked.

It's a pure display of democracy in a time when those are getting rarer and rarer.Taiwan has a real and vibrant and beautiful democracy.That's despite China's best efforts to unravel it.

In the sky and at sea, China's forces have Taiwan surrounded.

But we'll get into that in the next episode.