Tayari Jones: “Kin” | Oprah’s Book Club

We're surprising an author, Tayari, who's a book club I picked once before for American Marriage.

She doesn't know I'm coming in.

Tayari, you have a guest.

Hello! Hello! How are you? How are you?

It's great to see you! It's great to see you.

I've come to bring good news to you.

Okay.

I'm choosing Ken as a book club.

Oh my!

Oh my! We're a twofer.

Twofer, you're a twofer.

This is the thing about it,

I just felt like I had taken a trip back home and I knew these women as well as I know myself and my own kin.

Our literature has to reflect not only who we are but who we were.

Yeah.

And so it means a lot to me.

Oh, thank you. It means so much to me that you wrote it. Wow. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Here we go.

Here we go.

Here we go.

Here we go. OPRAH WINFREY Hi, everybody. I am so delighted to be here with you on the Oprah podcast. We're in New York City!

AUDIENCE CHEERS

OPRAH WINFREY With an audience of my kind of people, book lovers in New York City. Give yourselves a round of applause for that. This year we're celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Oprah Book Club, something I am very proud of because as a young girl growing up in Kosciuszko, Mississippi and later in Milwaukee and then later in Nashville, books were my lifeline.

I found myself in books. The first books I remember reading like Maya Angelou's I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and To Kill a Mockingbird. Those books transformed my life and what I thought I could be in the world. So when I started my book club on The Oprah Show 30 years ago, I never dreamed that millions of you, millions all

over the world, would be reading along with me. So I am truly, I feel honored. It feels like a full circle, God bless moment to be able to say it's been 30 years. And I hope you stay along with me for the ride and for many more books to come. So today I'm excited for my latest book club selection. I really am.

I mean, all the books that I choose, I read personally myself after, you know, I hear about them through many avenues. And I have a wonderful book editor, Lee Newman, who sends along the books to me long before they are in the stores,

and I read a lot of manuscripts. And I don't choose anything that I don't really like. But there are some things that I just feel resonate deeply inside that forever will be a part of my book language and vocabulary. And this book, Kin, by Toyari Jones is one of them.

I've been so moved by Toyari's writing. In 2018, I chose her prize-winning novel, An American Marriage. You all remember that? For my 78th book club, I think. And Toyari is just, she's one of those writers who has trained herself to write, but she also has the gift. She's able to allow the divine to come through her

and light up the pages with her words. And Ken is a great, great, great, extraordinary example of that. It is the captivating story of two childhood friends, Vernice and Annie, and who both lose their mothers and are raised by extended family.

And they take very different paths as young women. Reading it, I felt like, I was like, am I back in Mississippi? Am I back in Tennessee? It felt like going home. And I know that there are so many women all over the world

who are going to feel the same because Tayari Jones was able to bring it to the page. Welcome, Tayari!

Wow.

Welcome.

Welcome.

Welcome. Welcome. You brought it to the page. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.

You brought it to the page.

Thank you so much, and thank you for having me.

Well, and this audience has all read your book.

Woo! Woo!

Woo!

And I want to ask a couple of you what you thought about the book. So, Nero, what did you think?

I read this book through three lenses, as a psychotherapist, as a mom of four, and also as the eldest daughter of an immigrant mother. And I think because of that, my heart felt so heavy throughout the whole thing, just experiencing the longing that both Annie and Niecy had to be known and to know their mothers. And it made me think about my relationship with my mom, which was beautiful, but I began to understand her limitations as an adult and see mine that my own kids are experiencing.

But you also illustrated so beautifully the importance of these women who mother but are not mothers and it spoke to the importance of this collective mothering for wholeness. And it made me so grateful for the women who did that for me. And also now who've left that indelible mark on my kids, because as mothers, we're still working through our own stuff as we're in this stage of life. And these women give us a wholeness

that's greater than what one person could do on their own.

Yeah, I love that. Julia?

It really gave me an insight into the women in my life, my mom, my grandmother, my friends, my closest girlfriends, who are my chosen family. And I deeply connected with Annie and her vulnerability, her desire to feel loved, seen. And inherently, as black women,

sometimes we carry this burden, in a way, of always being strong before we're ever allowed to be soft. And through that, you have to be so much for so many, but really you need to be enough for yourself. And I wish Annie had that opportunity to find that peace

in her own independence.

Yeah.

Oh, I love that. I love that. Oh, one of my daughter girls, Tondo's here, a graduate of my school in South Africa. She reads every one of my book club book picks and I always just love Tondo's take. Your take on this one?

First of all, I'm a huge fan of Miss Tiare. Since American Marriage, I've read the book 10 million times over, obsessed. I might be biased, but my next of kin picks some of the greatest books I have read. And again, love the story about chosen family. I've been carried on the backs of chosen family my whole life. And so I have great admiration and respect for the idea that people can step in for us

and become our family without the bond of blood. But one thing you do, and you did it in American Marriage as well, of course, the letters. And they feel like little memories that you almost want to take out the book and put back in their original envelopes with the torn kind of, you know? And I love the fact that you have us treasure those moments and they feel so personal when you read each of those letters.

It feels like it's coming directly to you. You almost turn each page excited to see, did Annie write? Did she write today? So yeah, since we have you here, I would like to know what that structure looks like, the process of you choosing the letter writing

and putting us in a memory box like that. Well, first, thank you, all of you choosing the letter writing and putting us in a memory box like that.

Well, first, thank you for all of you for such careful and generous reading. Whenever you write a novel, you're asking so much of our readers for so much of their time. You know, we're all so busy

and our attention is everywhere. So for someone to give you the gift of their time to read 300 pages, I would like to start by just saying thank you for giving me that chance. You know, I write letters. I'm a letter writer. And I lament that letter writing is, you know,

we're losing it as a cultural form. I have all the letters. My grandfather lived eight miles from my grandmother. And just thinking these days when people didn't have cars, that was eight walking miles. And so he courted her by letter. Mm. And we have those, you know, we have that record.

My mother has them in her jewelry box. All, it's about 50 letters. And I hate that we don't have that record anymore. So I think that's why the letter form, you know, comes back in my work. It's me trying to keep it alive.

But also, what we share in writing is different than what we share in speaking. It's also different than what we text or email. There's a certain intentionality because you're putting it on the page for the record. And I was very interested in what these friends

and some other characters, what they will say to each other on the record. OPRAH WINFREY Well, you answered that question. Did you get your question answered? So I read that while you were a student at Spelman College, that there were two women who had a great impact on you. Tell us about that moment. Well, I will tell you, I went to Spelman, I was very young. I was only 16.

And I knew that I liked to read.

So you were smart. Very smart. I worked hard. I did. And I liked to read, I liked to write. But when I was a girl growing up,

if you liked to read, they didn't think it meant you were intellectual. They just thought it meant you were a nice girl. Yeah. Right? Like you were, that was something your mother didn't have to worry about because

to the best of my knowledge, you know, no one has ever gotten pregnant in the library.

Yeah.

But I said that once and the librarian was like, well, actually in the central branch, but I'm going to say seldom. Yeah, seldom. But when I got to Spelman College, I met a writer and she was my teacher. Her name is Pearl Clegg.

It's when we were crazy.

It's when we were on an ordinary day.

Yes, yes. It's Oprah's book club selection. And I signed up for the writing class, even though I was a freshman I thought that was discrimination. And I thought I should be allowed. And I didn't know you could learn writing in the classroom. And so I may or may not have approximated the signature of my advisor so that I could...

Because this was before computers, you know? And so I took the class and she asked me a simple question. She said to me, what are you thinking about? And I got ready to tell her and she said, no, don't tell me, write it down. And with that, she became my first audience.

She took me seriously, so I took myself seriously. And also I was at Spelman, and I joined Spelman College in 1987. Spelman was founded in 1881, but it wasn't until 1987 that Spelman College got our first black woman president. We're a black woman's college.

We got Dr. Johnnetta Cole.

Dr. Johnnetta Cole, her big voice. Yes. And I had met her at the freshman reception and she asked what I was interested in. And I just felt inspired and I said, I would like to be a writer.

And then I saw her later on campus. This was the 80s. Remember in the 80s, everyone thought they were gonna lose weight by walking really fast and moving their arms. Remember that?

Yeah. Yeah, so she was doing that. And I said, hello. And she said in her big voice, Tayari, the writer.

And it was like she just touched me with that. Like I said this was what I was going to do. Like she anointed you.

Yeah, and she remembered and I had to make good on my word. And so then I started thinking of myself as, oh, I'm the one that's the writer.

That is great. That is so great. Changed my life. Does she know that story? She knows that. She does know that story. And to honor her, I, along with one of my college roommates, we started a fund and we raised a scholarship in her name

called Dream the Boldest Dreams.

Oh, I love that. And you took an eight-year break between an American marriage and Ken. What was happening during that time? Because we've been waiting for this. We've been waiting.

I don't know if I would call what happened to me a break. I feel like in some ways it was the best of times and it was the worst of times. And that with an American marriage, I don't know if you know this, but it was an Oprah's Book Club selection. Yeah. And that changed my life. It's like I went from being a writer to being an author. I was out promoting my book, talking about my book, doing all these things and not having that quiet introspection. So that took some time away from writing the next book.

But I don't regret it because also I was enjoying the fruits of my labor. You know, for the first time I was being invited places, I was doing things, but so many other things happened. I had a terrible series of losses, deaths in my life. And that grieving took me away from the page.

I had a hard time justifying spending time in my life and that grieving took me away from the page. I had a hard time justifying spending time in my imagination when people around me were hurting so much. And then I, myself, I got sick. I was getting better. I was kind of writing and all of a sudden I had all these myriad symptoms.

I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder, Graves' disease, and I, like my hand was shaking, I couldn't write an autoimmune disorder, Graves' disease. And I like my hand was shaking. I couldn't write. It affected my vision. I used to didn't you know, eight years ago, I didn't wear glasses. So I had to write this book with a patch over my eye because I was seeing double and I needed to see.

You wrote this book with a patch over a lot of it. Yes. With a patch over my eye. But I wanted to write the book because by then, I had fallen in love with the characters and spending time with them was actually healing for me. And you started while you were sick, you were writing? I was writing because also,

I was a couple years over my deadline and I had promised them a book about, I had thought I was gonna write a novel about gentrification in modern Atlanta. It was gonna be super contemporary. It was gonna be based on my neighborhood.

I live in a wild neighborhood, but that is another story. But it was gonna be based on that. But I was trying to write that, but it didn't have the magic,

the sparkle that comes from creating. So where did this start? I heard that you started, you call it word doodling, that you started writing this book freehand. It's like you were channeling it.

It wasn't, the writing wasn't working when I was trying to write the novel that I had been contracted for. And I said, well, let me just go back to basics, to paper and pen, lined notebook paper, ballpoint pen, not even fountain pen, just a ballpoint pen. And I was just writing, just seeing who was out there.

And I started writing about Annie and Niecy, and it was the 50s. And I said, well, maybe these are my parents. Maybe these are my character's parents.

So this just shows up in your head.

It showed up in my, so I said, maybe this is backstory. Backstory is a thing. Okay, yeah. And so I just kept backstory and it kept growing and growing and then it got to be about page 150 and it was still like, it wasn't even 1960. And I said, well, I can't carry these people

all the way to the 2020s. So I think this could be the story and it is the first time a story ever came to me because I'm sure you talk to a lot of writers and they say, you know, oh, the story just, you know, this is what's sent to me.

I always thought those people were being dramatic. But it happened to me, like, this is a story that wanted to be written. This is a story that I was called to write and I could disobey that at my own peril. I felt that if I didn't write this book, I wouldn't write any book

because this is what I was meant to write. And it gave me a certain humility because it told me that I'm not doing this by myself. I am collaborating. When you do creativity,

it's a collaboration with the creator.

I love that. We all love that.

I mean, I just love even the title so much. Did you know the title in the beginning or did you come to the title? I came to the title once it was all ready. The book was completely finished. I was going to submit it. I was already anxious because as I mentioned, this was not the book that

you had paid for and I had to turn it in, and I could not turn the book in without a title. I felt like that was like, you know, just like going out the house without your hair done. You have to have a title on the book.

You can't just say untitled.

Yes.

And so I read it and I thought about it and I slept on it and I didn't, I didn't, I was, I submitted this work with such uncertainty, but I just had to say, this book came to me for a reason. This title came to me for a reason. And so I guess when I sent it into my publisher,

it came to them. Yes. I have to say, I don't want to give any of the book away because those of you who haven't read it, our audience here has read it, but when you read it, you want it to unfold for you. So we're not going to give you any spoilers, but can you give us an idea of what the plot is and how the plot came to you? It plotted itself. OPRAH WINFREY I always know, I generally know what the book is about, but I don't know what the people are going to do.

But this is a story of a female friendship. And I do believe that as a woman writer, at some point, female friendship, because it's

such a part of the fabric of our lives, is a natural, is a natural topic.

Everybody here has a friend, right? Who's a friend?

Everyone has a friend.

Yeah.

Yeah, and you have- Even you non-females too, right?

Yeah.

They're friends since they were infants because neither of them has a mother. Although Niecy's mother is dead. Annie's mother has abandoned her. So Annie has hope that one day she'll see her mother again. Niecy knows she'll never see her mother. So the question is really, is Hope a double-edged sword? Because Hope's twin is disappointment.

And their lives, you know, their lives unfold. They take different forks in the road. One is able to pursue education. The other is living in Memphis, working in a bar, you know, shacking up with a piano player. But their hearts are still connected.

They are still dearest friends. And it's really, I think, about also maintaining your friendships despite the fact that your lives are different. Different lives don't mean that you necessarily have different hearts.

And you cannot mistake your life for your heart.

Those are different things.

Wow. Why did you choose this time in American history? Because it's set in the 1950s, in the 1960s, the dialogue, the sights, the smells, all of it.

Well, I was curious about growing up in the wake of the Civil Rights Movement, because my mother, when my mother was 15 years old, she participated in a sit-in movement in Oklahoma City. For two years, my mother, her sister, and some other children that went to their school,

the whole summer, they sat in at a drug counter, drugstore counter, and during the school year, they did it on the weekends. And it was just a part of the fabric of their lives. Part of what I did in this book was really to try to get to know my own mother better by thinking about the circumstances under which she came of age.

It helped me understand the way our lives are the same and the ways that our lives are

different. Wow. And I love this page 11. Just it spoke to me so profoundly. While I was tended to, I was never mothered. Still the hole in my spirit made me into the girl I was

and then the woman that I am. One day, I will grow a person within myself and love that little person so hard that it would bind her to me like rich dirt in the corner of a canvas satchel." And you're crying.

Why are you crying? Because that was your line, too?

Yeah, Yeah.

We lost our mom when we were young.

It spoke to us. It spoke to you, too. Yeah. Let's talk about it.

Yeah. I can't believe how well and accurately you captured the experience of what it's like to be a girl without a mom. And every line, like that line, was like, yep, my reality, that's my reality, that's my reality. And so it didn't feel even sad.

It felt normal reading it.

Yeah.

And...

Felt normal and seen and heard, like someone else knows my story. Yes.

Even to say that you accompanied these girls through the story was like, oh, like you accompanied me. Just the witnessing is so powerful. So one of the themes that really stood out to me is this tension between survival and belonging and how you have to sacrifice part of who you are in order to fit in,

because it's not just a being seen and known kind of thing, but am I going to be safe and cared for and protected type of thing. So what was it that you were hoping that people would take away from that tension of when do I sacrifice myself in order to fit in

or when do I protect myself in order to fit in, or when do I protect myself in order to survive?

Thank you, first off, for sharing your experience. I think that we believe that we have to sacrifice more than we actually have to sacrifice in order to fit in. You know, a lot of times I think that we capitulate in advance. Like, we anticipate that we capitulate in advance, like we anticipate that we will not be safe. Like, I think that Niecy doesn't believe she'll be safe in telling

her truth, but she does not know that. Like, that is a risk. I think everyone should take the risk of the truth because you may be accepted and you don't know it because you're afraid. And so that to me is what I, the dignity is in the truth. And I think that that's the thing we have to, we think we can live without dignity. We think I'll do this to survive. Like dignity is a luxury, but dignity is not a luxury.

And you only get it by being your authentic self. I think that's one of the takeaways. And the other takeaway is I really hope that we can stop being so tied to the question of biology. The question of biology is something that is decided for us before we're even born. Like none of us chose our families.

And we as adults, we as full human beings should have the right to create a family that works for us. I'm not saying that your chosen family has to create a family that works for us. I'm not saying that your chosen family has to replace your family family. You can have both, but not to feel like this accident of birth is the determining factor in your life. That you can be loved by someone else, even if it's not your biological mother, your biological father.

Someone else's love can be just as significant if you let it. Like, Annie is so committed to the idea of blood that she cannot experience the other love that's around her. But it was right there in front of her. It was right there, but her commitment to the idea, it's an idea. Like, they say, you know, you could... And then he eventually says, he cannot be seen anymore because she's chasing the thing that's already there. Obsession is never a good idea.

It's never. Yes, yes. You've said that writing this novel gave you a deeper understanding of your own mother. Did it also give you a deeper understanding of yourself? Absolutely, because I came to understand in writing about this previous generation, just how their experiences were so different than our own. Like there's some things that, you know, I kind of blamed my mom for like not understanding my life.

And I realize now, how could she understand my life? She grew up in a different world. She was born in 1943. How is she meant, I mean, the nature of progress is such that we are each in our modern lives living unprecedented lives.

And you cannot expect other people to imagine the nuances of our unprecedented lives. And that's what I really came to see, that people do the best they can with the experiences that they have. And you have to give them some grace and credit

for how hard they try.

Wow, that is such wisdom. And I love how you turn a phrase like, on page 20, you say, my mother, rough as an emery board, looks like she was born to die.

Yeah, poor Hattie.

Yeah, how did you come? I mean, so as you're thinking of my mother is rough or my mother is, you know, challenged, or my mother, how does that come to you? Rough as an emery board.

Some of them come to me right away, but other times, once I'm in the zone, like when I'm in the zone of a book, if I touch something rough, I'll become more aware that I'm like, that's rough. I should use that somewhere. Like if I'm in the mode, I'm looking for metaphors. I'm looking for symbols.

But we also have metaphors and symbols all over our lives. But when I'm in the zone, I hear things everywhere. Like I'll hear a song lyric and it'll remind me of something in the book. Or I also think of ways, how am I similar to my characters? I can never write about a character who has experience.

The book is not autobiographical. None of my books are autobiographical. But I have experienced every emotion my characters have experienced. And I'm more aware of my emotions and how they feel and where they manifest

in my body as I write.

I love page 94. Me and Nisi weren't sisters and nowhere near twins. I didn't have what she got nor the other way round. What you have the same isn't what binds you. Hearts grow strings because of what you know that's the same. What happened to you, that's the same.

And when what you want is the same.

Yes. That's what you want is the same.

Yes, that's what you're saying. You've already experienced what these characters have experienced in one form or another.

Yes, and I mean, and even when they've done things that are shameful or embarrassing, I have to remember, and it also makes you humble in writing because you are not some perfect figure moving the people around, making them do what you think they should or punishing them for being naughty That's you have to really think about the times when you were not in the right and how it felt to you and that you're still A good person and then they too can be good people. They don't have to do everything right to be worthy of

story

Brianna where are you? Hello.

Hi. Yeah, so I just wanted to say that this book felt tangible. I felt like I could touch it, I could hear it, I could taste it, I could smell it. It felt less like fiction and more like a real account of something that happened in the lives of my great grandmothers, my grandmothers, even my mother. And it really resonated with me,

Annie and Vernice's predicament because I also lost my mother as well. And even their friendship resonated with me because I had a classmate who also lost her mother and father that took me under her wing after she found out about my mother's passing and really helped me through. I identify with Vernice's desire to be like Mrs. McHenry and her desire to break barriers

and create a different life for herself and her children and her children's children. And in doing that, sometimes you feel like you need to separate yourself from certain people or certain environments so that you don't get pulled back into a place that you're trying so hard to escape from. My question to you is, um, could Vernice possibly have set better boundaries?

Was she supposed to? Would that have saved her and Annie in the long run? I think, first off, my condolences to you and your mama.

Thank you.

I just, I felt it when you said that. I think that you have to set boundaries with people that are toxic. Annie is not toxic, she's poor. And you can't cut people off for being poor. Because they don't have the opportunities that you have. Annie is a good friend to her.

And Annie needed her help. And you have to help those who need your help if they're your friends, if you're close. And part of reaching across these differences in their lives are remembering what this friendship means. I don't think she should have had,

I think her mother-in-law who's saying, you know, you keep the people you used to know far away from you, and she tells her how she even pushed her sister away. I think that was a mistake. You know, if you have a good relationship with your sister, I don't want a life that tells me

I can't love the people I love. And I think that is the generational progress that I think that Fernice will make and that Mrs. McHenry is saying, you have to cut off your past. And I think Vernice says, or not. I'm not going to cut her off.

I love her. And I think that's important, that we have to figure out ways to integrate the people we love into the lives we want, or else you're choosing between who you love and your ambition. And you shouldn't have to, and you don't have to. You just have to be, I think you just have to be flexible and open.

Well, Leslie and Dr. Kelly, thank you so much for that, for sharing that. Leslie and Dr. Kelly and our audience, they've been friends since they were four years old. Did I hear? Friends since four years old.

Tell us your story. Stand up, guys.

Hi, ladies. Hi. So, yes, we have been friends since we were four and five years old, and our parents were members of a black social club, The Consorts. Why dresses all the way down? Yeah. And much like Niecy and Annie, we disconnected in our teenage years, but 25 years ago, we were reconnected when my aunt was battling pancreatic cancer, and Kelly was on her rotation.

So she walked us through the transition, and we have been thick as thieves ever since Sister Friends reunited.

Ever since. And we've gone, the last 25 years, we've gone through the ups and downs, couple of marriages, couple of divorces, and all the stuff in between. And one of the things that really resonated with me about Annie and Nisi's story is how childhood wounds can,

you know, they can't help but to affect us in our lives, but sisterhood can really heal us if we let it, you know. So we collaborated on this question. And, you know, when you think about how women sustain friendships over decades, right, over time and distance and failures and successes and loves, et cetera, what would you like

for readers to take away?

Yeah, what do you want all of us to take away from the relationship between Niecy and Annie that we can bring to our relationships? I think the main thing is to honor your relationships. Your friendships are as important as your romantic relationships. And they're as important as any other relationship in your life.

And also may last longer, because they can start when you're…

Absolutely, right? Also, they can start when you're... Absolutely. Right?

Well, also they can get started early, earlier also.

But that...

What you say, Gayle? But this person who is seeing you grow, and there is more of an expectation of acceptance among friends. Like your friend is not going to get mad at you because you look different as you get older. You know, like that's just not how friendships work.

There is a more of an expectation of an unconditional acceptance. And I think that's the thing, though, is to nurture your friendships and value your friends. So many people, you know people like this, throw their friends away when other circumstances in their lives change. Can't do it.

And that, your friends are your greatest resource. I think that's what I would take away. Well, I was gonna ask you, what did you take away? What did you take away?

Do you want to start?

Well, I, this was just an amazing book for me. Isn't it? I took away, it made me call all my friends, actually, and say, you know what, I'm just calling you because I love you. You know, I'm just calling you because, you know,

you were on my mind. And it just, it took, it made me take away the value and it made me appreciate the value, like you said, of sisterhood and friendship, and really what that means throughout our lives. You know, we were different people

when we were four and five years old. We were different people when we were teenagers, and we're different people now, but we still have the same friendship.

Yeah. And for me, it was taking away the affirming, the belief of knowing and being known, the two most important boxes in our human experience, and that we can choose the people who know us and we still have a call to share who we are with those

that we come in contact with. So it just felt so life-affirming and hopeful, even in the end.

Well, thank you.

Thank you. Leslie and Dr. Kelly, thank you. Thank you. Friend since you were four. Let you. Leslie and Dr. Kelly, thank you. Friends since you were four!

Yes!

Let's hear from Golda. Golda, what do you want to say? Hi.

I'm right here. Thank you so much, Oprah, and thank you, Tiare, for this book. I relate very, very closely to the characters in the book. My father was killed when I was a year old, and so I know that sense of longing that comes with losing a parent and wanting to know them, what they sounded like, what their laugh was like, how they walked. And so my question is about that.

In the book, we see the characters being mothered by people who aren't their mothers. And in my life, I had father figures step in to fill the gaps that my father left behind. But I've always wondered, was I fathered? Is it possible to be mothered by someone who isn't your mother,

or is it just a substitute and never really the real thing?

You know, I think that no one can ever compare to the imaginary parent in your mind. And so no real person can fill the gap of that imaginary person.

That's one of the things I was working on in the book,

how-

You're so smart.

How-

I do my best. You're smart. I do my best. Yeah. But, you know, I think about how, that's why I have so many people saying to Annie,

listen, Annie, I have a mother, and it's not what you think it is. Yes. That she has, and she keep reminding of that, but she is so stubborn. She always says, you know, they keep telling me that I shouldn't look for my mother, but they have a mother. They don't know, but they're saying,

actually we have a mother, so we do know. We do know, yeah. And I think that that is what's important, is to don't let an imaginary person dominate your life and keep you from having the satisfaction and completion that is available from real people, but real people have flaws.

Wow. Thank you so much for that. Thank you. Thank you, Golda. There's a beautiful passage about love that you write where you say, we come to love people in many ways.

Much is made of the burning love that hits like a smoldering remnant of a star hurled down to earth. I went, now, how long it take to write that sentence? Yet this is not the only type of love anymore than the camellia is the only flower. There is the love that blooms from decency and from that love, passion. I do believe that. I think that real, again, this burning love,

this like a star hurled from the heavens, that's that imaginary person. That's that imaginary person. But real people can win you over in a lot of ways and we can be so married to this other script. Love that blooms from decency

and from that love passion. And that blooms from decency. And from that love, passion. Yes, and you can, passion can develop. I think we think, oh, well, if you don't feel it, that first day is never going to be there or it's not there. But I think that Nisi, with her experience of loss, she is open to different types of love.

She even says, I think of another character of Joette, that only she, that's privilege that makes you think you can only be happy if things work out exactly the way you wanted them to. But there's a range of happiness and if you can accept that there's a range, there's a way higher chance that you'll find it. OPRAH How does each, how does writing a book like this open up the aperture of your own life. What happens after you have finished this writing and you send it off to your publisher

and you know that you are done? Do you feel more expanded in ways that you were before you wrote?

I feel like every novel I've written has made me more understanding of other people because I have to walk in their shoes. I never write about any character that I dislike. I have to, it has to be something about them that I feel establishes their humanity and makes me understand their,

that other person's point of view, even if I completely disagree with them. Like it was difficult for me, you know, to write from the point of view of a madam in a whorehouse. Like that was very difficult for me to write because I... But we ended up having compassion for her. Yes, we did end up having compassion for her,

but we still had Baby Doll pulling us, pulling our, um...

Yeah.

...our hem, saying, yeah, but don't forget what she does for a living.

Yeah, yeah.

So, but I was able to understand the way that she understood herself. I think that's the key. And I try to apply that to other people around me.

I was able to understand the way she understood herself. Yeah.

And that's the important thing. I imagine that the characters are reading the book. People say to me, who's your audience? And the audience are the characters themselves. And I want each of them to feel like I did right by them.

And you did.

Oh, thank you.

There's a running theme throughout the book that women have to sacrifice in some way themselves in order to survive. What is your point of view on that?

I mean, I do think that... I mean, sacrifice, that just sounds so like... I don't know, almost like, you know, like in those, like something someone's going to do in an altar, they're going to do like a sacrifice. But I do think you have to compromise.

Give up some things.

Yeah, you have to compromise. That's what I mean. But everyone, to be in a relationship is by its nature a compromise. The thing is that you have to be in a situation where everyone involved, everyone is compromising. The problem comes in when only one person is compromising. And perhaps that's when it becomes a sacrifice. But that's the thing, like Annie compromises to be in Niecy's wedding.

And Niecy has to compromise to remain friends with Annie. Like they have to give, you have to give,

but as long as you get, it's okay to give. Well, I'm not gonna give away any of the ending, but I mean, by the time you get to the end, you are really, like, on the edge of your seat. It is, um, yes. When you get there. SHERYL MCCARTHY I was stressed as well. OPRAH WINFREY Were you stressed as well? I had moved out of, I have this like this really cozy writing room with like a fluffy chair. It's so cute.

But toward the end, I had to move out of the cute cozy room and move downstairs to the basement to what I call the situation room. Because the story got, the story got deep. I had to like get down there. This was not a fluffy sock moment. You know, none of us reading it expected it to take us there.

Me either. You either. I was like, oh, that's, ooh. Yeah, that's how that went down.

Yes.

But I feel that when I get to the end, I look back at it, I can find places, clues I had left myself that I didn't even see.

Oh, I love that. Places, clues you didn't even see.

I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I feel. But I, I, I finished it on a plane. Actually the very final paragraph or two was written on a plane.

I was on my way back from London and I burst into tears. I just burst into tears and the lady beside me, she burst into tears. But she was drinking. And the flight attendant said, you are both cut off. Which I did not think was right, but it was fine. We were almost there.

But I was moved by it. I was moved. And I was grateful that this story had been entrusted to me.

Well, you know what is amazing too, is that the cover is also so intriguing. When I walked in and saw this cover, I went,

wow, what's the story behind the cover? I love the cover. This was like the sixth cover they came up with. As a matter of fact, that is why I was in New York because I had expressed my concern about the earlier covers.

And I came to New York because I wanted to show them that I was a sane person, that I was a sane and friendly person. And right before I got to the offices, they sent me this cover and I felt seen. I was like, yes, this is the story.

This is the honeysuckle from their hometown. I love that the word kin is so big. I like the flowers. I like the softness, the softness of it, because so often black women's lives are not associated with softness.

And so I appreciate us owning those flowers and that word kin. Did y'all find this book at least a little bit funny? I thought it was a little bit funny.

Every reference to trifling. Yes, I thought that was pretty funny. You know where I got the idea for the brothel? How? I was in Pompeii.

Did you know they had a lot of brothels in Pompeii?

I did not know this.

Yes, it's like a whole thing. Like, like how we have CVS's, they have brothels. And the tour guide just offhandedly said that the, the place where the brotheling took place was uncomfortable on purpose so that the people would leave. Really? Yes, they did not want you, you know, spending too much time lingering.

And they would have, and I thought that is so interesting. And the next thing I knew, when I sat down the right, there it was. It showed up.

It showed up. And so are you were saying that when you're in the zone, when you touch something and it's rough or when you're in the zone, things come. It sounds like at a higher vibration, higher frequency. I can hear it in a different way. Like it almost feels like there's an echo when the man said, this is a brothel. It's almost like I heard brothel, brothel, brothel. And I was

ready to go. I didn't need to see anything else. I felt like you've seen a little bit of Pompeii, you've seen enough. I need to get home and work on my book. And work your book and work your book.

And so as a writer, have you always been in observant mode? Do you think you see the world differently than the rest of us because you're always looking for the story?

I don't know if I see the world differently, but I think I do something different with what I do see. You know, I write in my journal every morning, no matter where I am. If I don't have it with me, I'm frustrated and sad, and I might just jot down a little something on a notepad in the room. So, for me, it's almost like if I don't write it, I haven't fully thought about it. So, even when I wasn't writing the book and all that time, I was

writing other stuff that didn't end up being in the book. So is it like a muscle for you? It's like keeping the muscle trained?

I don't think about trained because it's not painful in that way. I think it's just almost like one of the things that I do to stay whole is that I do this, that I do this writing. It does take discipline, yes, but it also, when I don't do it, I can tell there's a difference in the way that I'm moving in the world. I'm less happy.

I don't feel like I have purpose in the same way, and I wonder, like, what am I doing? But when I'm writing, I know what I'm doing, and I know why I'm doing it. And I feel so fortunate that I figured out that I wanted to write when I was such a little child, that I just feel blessed to have always known what my passion was. And I do feel that if I don't, almost like if I don't use it,

perhaps like it'll be, like in the book with Isaiah and Sweet, when he feels like my gift has been taken. I feel like if I don't use it in the way it's meant to be used, that perhaps I will no longer be blessed with it. Like you have to be responsible with this gift you have.

Wow.

Well, you are a blessing to us. You are a blessing to us. Tayari Jones, thank you for this really Thank you. Magnificent novel. It's magnificent.

Kin is available for wherever books are sold, and I recommend getting a copy for your best friend, too, or your next of kin, and read it together. I'm telling you, because you're not going to want to give up your copy. So thank you everybody, Tayari Jones and Ken.

Thank you.

So good.

Thank you.

You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.