Wayne Rooney: Where United’s Decline Began | Raw & Honest Conversation Like Never Before

I've said that I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. People think I don't like Cristiano. To be honest, over the last couple of years, I'm thinking, you know what, he's probably going to be the one when you look back.

Wayne Rooney, one of the greatest footballers of my generation. I've known him since he was 17 years old, and it's fair to say that we've been through some highs and lows together.

Yeah, it was scary. Why were you only scared? I was in the old age hotel for a while, then we rented a house, you've seen the rented house.

I'll see the state of it. And it was almost like, I became almost like your security from behind you. Because I heard someone shout, once a blue, always a blue. And although we shared a dressing room for all those years,

I learned loads more about my mate. I came home from the conference house and sat in the airport for the Champions League games and he just grunted. I was struggling, massively.

With what?

With alcohol. Massively struggling. I didn't think I could turn to anyone.

I wish I knew more about that as a teammate. I just love sitting down with footballers to show you just what they're really like.

Well, I honestly believe if she weren't dead, I'd be dead. I love going home after a game and watching the Standers. I love that moment, that feeling where you're sat there, you're watching TV, you're comfortable, you're in a safe place.

It's weird because I would always say you're confident.

I'll go around, I'm at 8.5 out of 10.

Yeah. I don't know if I can. Yeah? So make time, watch this episode, and see Wayne Rooney in a way you've never ever seen him before.

Morning. You alright? How you doing? You good?

Got you a coffee.

Look.

Service.

This is not great, that is.

Do you know what? It might be a bit too much water. Do you want to pour a bit out for you?

Yeah, that's okay. I'm not a diva, mate. You're not a diva?

How you doing?

Good.

So, where's the win? I always want to speak to you because you're obviously a striker and I always, when you talk about players, you give a good kind of understanding. You're a striker. Who do you watch today when you watch football and think, I love watching that striker?

I do like watching Haaland, but also for straight to me as well, I think his movement. If you watch his movement in the six yard box, it's incredible. Yeah. But then you just want a little bit more from him.

In what sense? What do you want a bit more of?

I want him to be more commanding. Like, you look at the size of him, like, in physicality, he's like a beast. And just want him to go and bully. Centre back, you know what I mean? That makes sense. He had that little scuffle, didn't he, with Godfrey.

Oh, Godfrey, yeah.

And I want to see a little bit more than just dominate the centre-back. But then the game's changed. The game's different. The number 9s are not the main man. If you look around world football, just CB East in the Premier League, there's Cole Palmer, there's Saka, there's Salah. The best players, the game-changers come from

the sides. So the forward really is just there to occupy defenders. There's no... Mateta, I like Mateta.

At Paris? Yeah. You said that? Yeah, I think... You said that to me, you said that to Nils, that group in him before.

Yeah, I just think he's clumsy, he doesn't look great on the eye, but he occupies defenders, he makes it a difficult game for defenders to try and deal with him, and that allows the other players to come into little spaces. So I like him but other than that, there's no number 9s going off the game.

Just to go back to Harry Kane, what's your thoughts on him? Obviously, he broke your record for England but he's a bit similar to you. He's a number 9 but he can also drop in and play.

I think he's developed that over the last few years. He's developed and he's a clever lad Harry. He's never been the quickest, but I think he's lost a little bit of sharpness. He scored an American goal last season for Bayern. He's a goal scorer, he's clinical, but he's clever in terms of the positions he's picking up. I watched Bayern Munich in the Club World Cup and then it was almost like Totte for Roma,

where you drop in and there's runners off him, but gradually as the ball got further forward and he might have come back out and went back around the other side, he then makes his way in the box. So it's not a sprint, but he's in there and he's in the round there. And if he gets a chance, he scores. For me, he's the greatest ever England number nine.

Is he?

For me, I think. You'd put him at a better pad than you? Player? I'm not sure. I think I could do things which potentially he couldn't. I was nastier than him as well.

But in terms of goal scoring, he creates goals. You watch people say, like, how he scores against San Marino or this team, he scores every game. And does he play well all the time? No. But for me, he's above everyone.

You mentioned you were nastier. You mentioned you're a nastier. Does he need to be nastier? What would that give him?

It gives you that edge.

There's probably a reason he stayed at Tottenham for so long.

With that edge, he probably doesn't stay there that long.

Yeah, you want to come out of your comfort zone. You want to go and try at different clubs at the time, be successful. I'm delighted he's obviously won the league in Germany, but just that little switch, I think.

I love him, because I think his journey is what I love about him as well. It wasn't easy for him. It wasn't a conventional journey like yours, where he always knew he was going to be a superstar. He's had to graft, go on loans, didn't work out, and eventually got to the top.

And I always liken him to a golfer, a golfer swing, perfect. He's honed his craft. He looks like one of those guys who spent hours and hours and hours doing that. So all the rewards that he's got, I think he's fully deserved as well.

Yeah, 100%. And he's obviously I've played with him for a period of time. And what was it like playing with him? Sometimes, like he's shooting, like, what are you doing? Why are you shooting from there? But he keeps doing it. But like, him, Ronnie, keeps doing it and you get your rewards. But he's got everything.

It's just that little...

Devilment, isn't it?

Yeah, that little, like, cantina or meself at times or just, like, it's going to be horrible.

He got criticised, didn't he, at the last tournament? Would you start him for England at the World Cup?

100%. He has to, Zad. He has to. If you look at every England game... He scores, doesn't he? He scores. It's the hardest job to do. It's the hardest thing to do. You look what's behind him. You've got Olly Watkins, Ivan Torney I don't know. Solanke.

So if you could honestly sit here and say would you start any of them ahead of Harry Kane? No. And he scores and people say like does he, a bit like Ronaldo when he went back to Man United? What's the impact on the team? He works hard, Harry. He's not going to go and sprint around all the place. But you've got Elman.

You've got these players with energy and fighting and whatever to go and do that. Just put him around the penalty box. He scores goals.

It's true. That's what you wanted Nemanja them out of the penalty box, score goals. It's true, you're only number nine to do it, you know, you've got to score goals. Just, I want to move on. We went out for a bit of food last night, and I think one of the interesting things we spoke about was a young scouser going to Man United. What was that like for you?

Just take us back to the feelings that you had and some of the things that you was nervous about? It was scary. Why were you only scared?

I was a typical scout servant. Everything I'd done was a proud scout servant for the city, for everything. And then all of a sudden I'm signing for Man United. Like, what's going on here? I got pelted, got absolutely pelted. Parents' house got spray painted,

Cleen's parents' house got spray painted, it was death threats. And then I went, went to Manchester. Me and Cleen had just bought a house in Thornby. We were there for about six months and then we moved to Manchester.

We was in the old Edge Hotel for a while and we rented a house. You've seen the rented house.

That's the estate of it.

And then obviously in that time we were building a house and moving. We've been there ever since. So for a young Scouts lad to go to Manchester, the first thing... People from Manchester and people from Liverpool are very similar. Like almost identical and that's why I think there is a rivalry because they're so similar in how they walk, how they talk, how they hold

themselves, their attitude is very similar and so for me to go to Manchester, yeah it was tough and I knew first game walking out as a Scouser I needed to go to Manchester. Yeah, it was tough. And I knew first game, walking out as a scouser,

I need to make an impact. I remember when you first signed, we went to a club. It might have been Tiger.

Tiger, Tiger.

I've never been to a club.

No, no.

We went once, it was only once. But no, we went to a club, we walked through and it was almost like I became almost like your security from behind you. Because I heard someone shout, once a blue, always a blue. And by the time I turned round to look at you, you had your shirt off.

And that was you then, that encapsulated who you was. Angry, young man.

I was horrible. I was, I was horrible. To be around, like, you've seen it for my teammates. What were you then, 24? 24, yeah. Something like that.

So, I put you in a position, I put your teammates in a position because I had issues, I couldn't control it. I couldn't control someone saying something, someone looking in a different way and it was a big deal.

Did you need to be like that though to be the player you were? Because I think that anger was a big part of your, not only make up as a person, but also as part of your on-field persona as well, which I thought at times made you.

I don't think so. I don't think so. I was young, I was young. I come from a council estate, council estate, crops, the thing with the pool. I felt like I had to have that desire within me. I couldn't come down from there. So Hattrick and Fenerbahce, I'm here. And then when you go home, I couldn't come down from there.

I talked about this on a podcast before where you brush our most decorated player Ryan Giggs aside, take the free kick, score a hat-trick. That is like ridiculous. That's like you're on the top of the mountain there. How does a young 18 year old kid

manage to keep his feet on the ground

and come back down to normality? I love the small things in life. I love going home after a game and watching EastEnders and Coronation Street. And I don't really like him there. But Britain's Got Talent or...

You love them reality shows.

I'll go home after a game, doing it as a player, as a manager the same, have a glass of wine and watch TV. And for me, that is, Cleen always says to me, he says, you come home, you just want to sit down,

watch TV. But for me, that's like, I love that moment, that feeling where you sat there, you're watching TV, you're comfortable, you're in a safe place. For me, that's like-

Yeah, because your life is 100 miles an hour when you pack your door.

Yeah, and the minute I go out of my gates, for instance, not now, when I was a player, there was paparazzi everywhere and it was horrible and it takes so much energy out here thinking how much planning you had to put in place to go to Tesco. Yeah, it's mad, isn't it? And it's what we found,

and every time we go to Tesco or go and get petrol, every single time we went, there was a photographer there. Like, how's he here? Like, you looked in your mirrors, you didn't see him following. So I got the policeman to the house

and they put a tracker underneath the car.

The media? Wow.

Even now, like, so I drive 20 minutes out the way to get a coffee because I don't want to go to this one which is five minutes away because every single time, Colleen gets it all the time and she'll just go. But I'll walk out and see the photographer. I'm like, nearly a 40 year old man, going to get a coffee, what are you doing?

It's like, it doesn't make sense to me.

It comes with it, it's territory.

It's like, get in, I've done documentaries and put myself out there in different situations. And if I'm falling out of a nightclub and the thing, of course I understand that, I get it, but going to your local village to get a coffee, everyday life, like, what are you doing?

Who would you go and help you settle in when you went to United?

I think different people for different reasons, you were really important. I think for all the young players, if you gravitate to young players who come through, myself and any young players after me, you used to always gravitate to them.

Wes was really good for me, just without knowing. He didn't even know that. He was helping me in different ways. Shazy, Karras comes in, Karras is Mr. Sensible. And if you ever go on a night out, if you say you were Michael Karras, that's fine. Yeah, and he's one of the best drinkers as well. Yeah, you say you were Michael Carrick, I'm no problem.

But that little group we had, I think everyone, yourself, Carers, Shazy, Wes, everyone in different ways, helped in different ways, and I hope that I was helping you lot in different ways as well. And then I felt we formed like a little group and like when you had Giggsie, Gaznerv, Scolzi,

Ruud for a small period of time when I was there, they were like the dons above us. And then you could see what was happening naturally, they were gonna go and we'd fill that void. And the problem was there was no one behind us. So loads of help from different people,

from staff, members of staff, who don't even know. It was such a family place to go and happy place to go. You didn't think of anything, just that you're going in, you're gonna have nice food, you're going to have nice food, you're going to be with nice people,

you're going to go and do your training, go on and prepare for the game.

I always say, when people talk to me about May United, I always do say that it was...

I remember you used to go to the barbecues in, what's the name? Carroll. In Carroll's Back Yard and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stuff like that, it's...

It's a small club mentality, wasn't it?

It's priceless.

Yeah, it was almost a massive club, but it felt like a small club because everybody was so tight in it, the staff, players, et cetera. And I think from the outside, it looks like that's gone a little bit.

But I used to love going in every day. 100%. Talking about loving love going in, you must have loved going in around the 2008 era with the players like Ronaldo, Tevez, yourself, that front three, Louis Saha ending around it a little bit after that, Berbatov. Talk me through that front three, especially you, Ronaldo, Tevez because everyone talks about that as one of the best ever. What do you think about immediately when you get mentioned in,

when I mention that front three?

Ronaldo Tevez?

Yeah.

Ruthless, fight. Ronaldo, people say Ronaldo, Ronaldo used to work, and people think I hate him. I love him. I think he's an absolute genius and what he's doing is incredible. I love Cristiano and play with him. I don't think people realise actually how close me and him

were. Yeah, you were like two, like, you'd figure things together.

So, and I think just because I've said that I think Messi is better than Ronaldo, people think I don't like Cristiano. I think what he's doing, and to be honest, over the last couple of years, I'm thinking, you know what? He's probably going to be the one, when you look back, because he keeps going.

I think his last three seasons, he's a top goal scorer in Saudi Arabia. I absolutely love Messi, love watching him play. And that was the only reason, because I think Messi had a little bit more to him for how he played and taking players on. And wherever, Ronaldo's a killer. And people think, because I've said Messi is better than Ronaldo,

I don't like him or speak down on him.

You said you preferred the way Messi played.

Yeah, and that's it. You might prefer Cristiano, this person might prefer Messi or Ronaldo. But I don't think you can argue with any of them two. I just like the little flair about Messi, and that's it. Ronaldo, Cristiano is an absolute genius in what he's doing. He's just turned 40. What he's doing is incredible. And I take my hat off to him. I think, you know, what a fair player.

And I couldn't speak a bad word about him.

What was... Because the three of you, Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo, when I think about that, it takes me back to when I was a player. It was like, we just keep a clean sheet, them three will terrorise.

That's how I used to think. Did you feel a bit immortal around that time, like, I'm unbeatable, I'm playable?

No, not immortal, but...

As a three?

Just felt that we'd score. Like, if I had a bad game, one of them two, and Berber comes into that as well, if someone had a bad game, one of us would do something and create a bit of magic and win the game.

Why did it work so well though?

We were all flexible. So it weren't you're number nine, you're off the left, you're off the right, or you're number ten. There was a rotation which, you know, we didn't work on it. We didn't go on the training pitch and say, right, if he goes there, you come here. It was understanding and just a natural rotation.

And the only thing which the manager would say to us is, if they win the ball back, if you end up towards the left, you cover as a left winger. If you end up towards right, you cover as a right winger. So there's a freedom of just playing and enjoyment and to try things and not be afraid to give the ball away or to miss the target. And I think a work ethic. I think more so from me and Carlos. I just think, I think now I think, imagine coming up against me and Carlos. Oh mate. Where technically we can

score goals but... That's a long day. We've had two horrible, like just ratting and leaving the foot in and tackling. Two horrible big rats chasing you down every time you've had the ball. I always think that now and it's mad because football's gone away from two forwards. When Carlos signed there was loads in the media saying that me and him can't play together, we're too similar and he's the player I've enjoyed most playing with as a forward. In your career? Yeah. Is it? I could be a 9. Did you ever talk, because he didn't communicate really

other than with Pat and Jason Parker, did you ever sit down and go to him and go, listen Carlos, you do this and when I do that you do it, was it? And nothing like that, he just naturally... I used to pick him up from his house and see him in the airport for the Champions League games and he just grunted. He understood a lot more than I think what people thought. Your communication is your eyes. That was your communication, you don't have to talk. You can look at someone. That used to do with Michael Kaddok all the time.

Just talking about that front three and obviously Cristiano in particular, when did you look at him and think, I'm going to have to sacrifice for Cristiano probably because he's moving to a level of like Gault-Ballon d'Or status? When did you go, okay…

I never, not once did I look at anything and I need to sacrifice.

They look like that though, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, they look like that, they felt like that at times. But I want to win, I want to win the Premier League, I want to win the Champions League. And I think that was a big difference. Cristiano has got something in his brain which I don't think anyone's got. He's got this mindset and mentality which is way beyond anything I've seen in football. I've got a mindset and a mentality which is not that level, but it's a level where I want to win.

I didn't care about, I've never cared about bound doors or winning individual trophies. For me, that's nothing. I couldn't care less than that. I want to win. I want to win with you, I want to win with my teammates, Premier League, Champions League, that's what... And if that meant you going to the left in the Champions League final, you'd do it. What Cristiano had, of course, he wanted to win all that with the team,

but he had this selfish, selfish mentality where he wanted everything. I didn't have that. So there's a difference in mindset from that point of view. And I wanted to live my life as well. I wanted to go out and enjoy my time with friends and, you know, have a night out or, and it got to a point where I went too far, of course.

It didn't, that was a moment in my life where I was struggling, massively.

With what?

With alcohol. Massively struggling, and I With what? With alcohol. Massively struggling. And I didn't think I could turn to anyone. Didn't really want to, because I didn't want to put that burden on anyone. I remember-

We talked about this, didn't we?

I remember going into training and putting isotopes in, chewing gum. Whole bottle of aftershave on. I just sang for two days straight. What, and come training? Come training and then at the weekend I'd score two goals and then I'd go back and drink for two days straight again. Who helped you out of that and dealing with that in that time? Colleen is massive. It's bad because we're two kids from Croxhead and then we grew up together and obviously we started dating and we got married and have kids. She knew my mindset, she knew I was a bit out there, I loved my football, obsessed with

football but also I loved a night out or whatever called out. She's seen it very early on and she's controlled that, well not controlled but helped me control that massively and at times you're like, what are you doing? Like, why do you keep saying don't do this or don't do that? But how she's managed me, because I need the managing. Is that important for a footballer?

There's a lot of players watch this podcast and it'd be interesting to hear your take on it. How important a wife, a partner is for a career in the game?

Well, I honestly believe if she weren't there, I'd be dead.

Wow.

I believe that. And what she's done, how she... And it's annoying at times. I'm like, what are you doing? And you get annoyed, but everything she's doing is to keep me here,

and keep me... To be the best player. On this world, and the best person. And I've made mistakes in the past which are well-documented, but...

I'm a little bit different at times and she keeps me on that path and she's done it for 20 odd years.

I talked about on the Matt Rushmore of strikers in the Premier League on my podcast the other day, about you being a genius and having crazy IQ and sometimes the perception might be different off the pitch. Do you think that's unfair? Because I see you and you surprise me so often with how it kind of eclectic your way your mind thinks about things.

There was a big like campaign of this guy can't read, he can't write, he can't do this and whatever, he's thick. And then sometimes you start thinking, am I? Do you know what I mean? And I think what people don't know, I was saying this to you last night, I've studied myself on many different things over the last 20 years in terms of knowledge. Well, no, I'm very educated

and I feel like I could hold the room with anyone in terms of whether that's black history, whether that's religion.

And what are you talking about? The Pharaohs are last night over dinner. Do you're talking about the Pharaohs last night, over dinner, do you know what I mean? So I was sitting there going, how the hell do you know about all this?

Wherever it is, and you see it, someone will say to you, like, where's that come from? Because I've tried to create a book of knowledge in my head where if I'm in a position with a player from Africa, for instance, I want to understand his background and understand what makes him tick,

or with a player from Greece or wherever. So I think it's really important that you've got that knowledge and you understand, so you can put yourself in that player's shoes or that person's shoes.

Has the way people perceive you ever, ever like hurt you personally, did you just sit there and go, you know what, actually, I don't like that.

Yeah, both times. Both times.

Because you're human, like people think because you're this big, like your number 10 at Man United, captain of your country.

I'm actually very insecure on quite a lot of things. I have been my whole career over my weight. Being insecure now over how you look.

It's weird, but you're confident. It's weird, because I would always say you're confident.

I'll go around, I'm'm 8.5 out of 10.

Yeah.

Because there's different attributes which you can have. You might look incredible, but then how do you...

Communicate.

Communicate, how do you hold yourself? I'm an 8.5, 100%. But also still very insecure because I want to be a 9.

That's a mad day. I don't think a 9's coming if you're an 8.5.

It's not coming, I'm going that, mate. If I ever do get to an 8.5, I don't know how you'd like to... Oh, mate. I am actually really insecure over a lot of things. And Kylian knows this. If you ever see me on the beach next week,

I won't say where, we've been in the same place.

Yeah.

I've got my T-shirt on, I've got a cap on. But even when I was in the best shape I was in as a football player, I wouldn't take my top off. Yeah I don't remember that, that never even occurred to me. And I was strong, I was powerful, I've never had abs and stuff but... You were strong man. Powerful. Yeah. Probably a body which... Probably actually the best body you need to be a footballer.

Yeah, you never injured. It was robust. You were strong, powerful.

But I was always thinking what people... There was one thing which happened years ago with me and my mum and dad. It was John and Ross put a picture of me, mom and I'd come up the sea. Hmm and Still to this day I still think about that because I think you know what whatever you want to say about me to say But why why would you attack me parents?

Hmm, I don't get it and it happens when I'm on the beach. Yeah, and I Just don't get it. I don't get it and it happens. For the one on the beach? Yeah. And I just don't get it, I don't understand it. My mum's a dinner lady. She was my dinner lady. She's still the dinner lady in the school I went to, to this day.

Wow. Why is she getting judged? So, and the stuff I'd had when Cleans walking around the beach in a bikini and I just don't get it. I don't understand. And they tell me I can't take a picture

of my son in the park. Do you know what I mean? It's mad. It is mad. So, I've always had like a real insecurity of my image.

It's weird, because I never, until until now I would never have said that. I would never have said that. You obviously, Wayne Rooney, you've done everything you've done as a player, built up as a superhero. And it goes back to that old thing,

I've been guilty of it where you don't really talk about your emotions that are going to reflect, in our own minds, that might be negative, or that someone's going to see you vulnerable, or you're not going to be as macho as people might think. And it's just built in, in men, I think,

not to talk as much.

Yeah, it is. And I talk all the time.

Non-stop.

I don't stop talking. But I think there's a time to be serious.

I wish I knew more about that as a teammate, you know what I mean? So I could have spoke to you and...

Yeah, of course. But then also, like what you went through... As I know, not just me, the other players are thinking... Like, why didn't we do more to allow you to come and talk to us? If that makes sense. So it's mad, it's weird.

You're out in the bubble, aren't you? And you're meant to be this macho guy who's going and playing football and being successful, but a lot of the time you're vulnerable.

Is that something you've taken into management? When you go into management, where you wanted to make an environment where people could talk, you would physically go out of your way to make people feel comfortable.

Is that what you put in place, given your experience?

What's really important, and this is, in my opinion, Alex Ferguson's greatest strength, where he just brought everyone together. What I actually done with every football club I went to was create an unbelievable environment. I just couldn't get a good team.

Why is that then? We're on it now. Why couldn't you create a good team? Because all these things add up, don't they? The environment you're trying to create for the team to produce the best performance and to be consistently good. Why couldn't you get a team in that shape?

You could, but I think I took very difficult jobs. Obviously, I was at Derby and then I went in as manager and then went in administration. Then I went out to the US and managed DC United, which people actually think, talk about that as if it was a big failure. DC United finished bottom the three seasons

before I went in. And then we missed out on playoffs by a point. And then when I left, we went back to the bottom. And people don't talk about that. Then I went to Birmingham, which was an absolute car crash from day one, to be honest. The fans never said that.

I always remember we played Millsborough away in the first game. We lost 1-0 in the 90th minute. And we played Hull at home. I remember I walked out and we first came at St Andrews and I'm stood there and the players are shaking hands and I'm there, and there was a Birmingham fan behind me,

get back to America you fat cunt. I mean, I was laughing, I was like.

A home fan, one of your fans, wow.

Can't give you a chance. And so that was just never right. At the time of when I went in, it was just never... It weren't a good fit. And then obviously I went into Plymouth

and some of the football we played at Plymouth was unbelievable. Mm. It was incredible, but it's a level of consistency, which I'm not going to sit here and go with players or whatever, but that level of consistency where you need to move forward and progress in the timing, playoffs or whatever, We didn't have that and sometimes there's actually not much the manager can actually do now. Because every training session we give them, it was consistent, it was the right messages.

Training sessions were really good and then I was shocked in some of the games I was in. Sheffield Wednesday, first game of the season. I put that on me. I played four players who had come in from Europe. First ever game of the championship at Hillsborough. It was a big atmosphere.

A tough place to go.

I put that on me, but then there were games like Cardiff away, Bristol away, where I didn't recognise the team.

Just to start chained from training, looking good in training and then not producing.

You're there thinking, what is going on here? This is not what we've trained. And then at that point you're like...

But that's why I always talk about it. Like, what's the motivation to become a manager and then having to go down the leagues to kind of prove yourself because you're not used to that environment. You're not used, you're used to playing high performance,

consistently challenging to win things with players who consistently churn out good performances, match winning performances. To go and manage a group of players, no disrespect at lower levels who aren't built to do that, don't know that.

I'm from Crofton.

Yeah.

So, built to do that, don't know that. I'm from Croxley. Yeah. So my whole life was trying to be a football player and be in football and I know what hardship is and I know what it means and what it takes to fight and And I know, I'm not stupid, I know there's players similar to me, of stature, who would never go anywhere near them jobs. Because the exact same thing is happening.

Yeah, it's not, I make it work.

And then they've obviously got better jobs and more budget, they have better players. And I think I've always gone in and had the confidence and belief that I could turn around. And that hasn't happened. And I hold my hands up to that and say, OK, but I'm willing. I'm willing to go and do that and go and try.

And knowing that there's a big possibility that it could fail.

Is proving people wrong a big part of that for you?

I don't care. I don't care about... As I said before, I am rarely insecure, but proving people wrong, I don't care. It's just internal motivation. Yeah, like what me as a player, what my coaches and teammates would think, of course that's what I care about and now I'm not in football, obviously better media and stuff and I care what my wife, my children say. Why would I allow someone

who I don't even know to put me down? Do you know what I mean? And I completely understand that's not, everyone can't do that and what people say. I seen it this year with Phil Fowl, where he's held United fans, United fans singing about his mother.

I've had that every game for 25 years. No one writes about that in the media. No one says, do you know what, this is absolutely disgusting, his children, his wife's there. So I've had to deal with that when I'm on the pitch, when I'm on the touchline. But I think there's a perception, there's things which people say,

there's things which people do, which for whatever reason, with me, gets pushed under.

Yeah, because you're Wayne Rooney.

Yeah, but it gets pushed under the carpet.

Not rightly so, I'm not saying it's right.

No one wants to write how disgusting this is because Wayne Rooney's seven year old son is in the crowd and he's getting abused every game. No one wants to write about that. I have to then go back and speak to my seven year old child and my nine year old and my 12 year old

and my 15 year old.

To help them understand?

And say, I don't understand what is going on, why they're singing it.

And I always think the way I look, I don't fit in.

I've always thought that the way I look, I don't fit in to what a Premier League footballer should be. Why, what do you mean?

I don't know, I've always thought… Well you don't like Mex? I don't fit into what a Premier League footballer should be. I don't go by their rules. You don't conform. I don't, you know, sit there and let people talk down to me. And I am who I am.

And a lot of people don't like it. Because if you've got a voice, your voice is powerful.

Would you have liked to have played in today's game rather than when you did?

I think I'd score a lot more goals.

Well, why do you say that?

Defenders can't defend. What do you think? I know you were a defender. No I think definitely the level of defending now is not the same standard as it was before. There's nowhere near that you think Tim Barker and you're playing against yourself and Vividge or John Terry or Cavallo. Some of these defenders were tough defenders. Saul Campbell, hard defenders to play against and it was a fight, it was a battle. You come off, I've got scars all over my head. Why is that though? I'm thinking now, when was the last time you've seen a number 9 have a battle with a centre-back? Yeah, no, it don't happen does it?

Harland and Gabriel maybe a little bit, but even then it's not really there.

That's handbags and it's... It's not nasty. When you're going into a game and that's what picks you up, I'm thinking, I'm having you, I'm going to do you.

Is that what you was like at Wiv?

Yeah, and I'm out there thinking the same thing. We're now in, it's, I don't know, before the game, we're talking with each other, after the game, they're on the pitch for about an hour. After the game, like, what are you doing? Get off the pitch.

Yeah, like you said about Harry Kane, we were talking about not having that nastiness. There don't seem to be a lot of that nastiness around, where you feel that there's an intent to really, to take everything off that player or team.

When you go on the pitch that is your job, that's your responsibility for yourself, your teammates, for your fans and the fans aren't stupid. You're on the pitch, you're rolling, you're working hard and you're tackling and you lose the game. Especially Man United fans, they clap you off.

That takes me to a good point actually, a segue into like values and the change in values that they've had. You was part of Man United when it was winning everything, success driven, et cetera, to you went into a period where that was changing.

And like you said earlier, players like yourself, myself and others were kind of leaving. What was the change in values from when you were at the club 2008 time to when you left?

I left in 2017 from our group really, there was me and Michael Carrick left. And then we looked at the players there behind us and we were like, who's going to lead this dressing room? Youngie was there, but there was no group. You had Jesse, Pogba, Rashford, fantastic players, very good footballers, but actually, who's going to take responsibility? And I've got to keep that soul in the dressing room.

And I don't think since me and Michael left, I don't think that's been there.

Do you think the likes of Roy Keane or yourself could have coped in a dressing room like they are today?

No.

Why? Why not?

We get sacked. You wouldn't, you know some of the stuff which got said in the dressing room.

Because I always talk about how me and you, we're great friends now, but the amount of arguments, how many we used to have per week.

Well now it's, and it's society as well, and you can't say this because you might upset this person. You're bullied and you get accused of bullying and stuff. What happened to speaking the truth? And saying like, what are you doing? I'm not going yet because when you used to have got me,

I'm like, I'm not letting them do that again. Or I'd have got you and it wakes you up, it brings you alive. I have a responsibility to keep you, to keep him, to keep him on his toes. You have a responsibility. I can do what I want to do on the pitch. If it didn't come from you or then Carazza or Scolzi behind.

It's a collective and you have to... We used to play the army game, didn't we? Yeah, on the computer. I'm convinced that helped us massively. Because we'd go on a train for two hours to London and we're playing and non-stop we're talking and we're communicating.

Team, innit?

And then when you go on the pitch it becomes easy. So I think nowadays it's too easy for someone to turn around and say, oh, he said this to me, you can't say this.

You're in your dressing room nowadays, is that what happens? So if there's like someone digs someone out and like half gets hold of someone, or is that like a, well, I'm not talking to you for two weeks, or is it just brushed under the carpet?

I've walked out of dressing rooms. As a manager.

Why?

Because I'll explode. And I've seen a player call another player out. Not on bad, like, if this was a hard eight, it's nothing. And then I've seen another player saying, you can't do that if you want to speak to him, do it one on one, this is bullying.

No way.

And I'm still there, I'm waiting to, so I've let them, I always let the players talk and encourage them to talk to each other a half time, a full time, and then I'll come in and say something. And I heard that and I just looked.

I was like, it's, as I said, society, it's, you don't know what you can and can't say is wrong. And gotta be really careful in what you're trying to say, how you wanna say it, how you project it, how, what tone of your voice you're saying it in. So it's so many different things,

but ultimately you want to try and get the best from that person.

Yeah, and that's, it was like, you had to, you couldn't really tiptoe around it. You didn't got time to tiptoe around it. You're in the middle of a game. You're in, you've got 10 minutes at halftime to talk and to shout and to holler at each other,

to get a reaction, to go out there and get a result. It's my, imagine being in the middle of the pitch and then someone, haven't got you, you've got to be aware, your head's got to be moving, you've got to be looking everywhere. And then, and this happens today, I've seen it happen,

it's like, you can't say that to me. And then you come over to the touchline and you said this to me, like, what is going on? Yeah, you gotta deal with it. You're playing a sport, which, the national sport, and there's so many fans there,

who are there supporting you, paying a lot of money. They expect you to be doing everything, not be walking over to the side because someone... Has shouted. Has said something. What's funny, can you think and go,

that was one of the biggest, best arguments I had on a pitch?

I always go back to Portmouth away, this was out of Ferguson. We come in and we're winning 1-0, I'd scored. I always remember Christian was here, Nanny was here, he's come in and he's just gone for me. Gone for me massively about dribbling and not passing the the ball and I'm sat there, honestly I'm sat there

Between the two of you?

I've looked at Cristiano, I've looked at Nani and I'm like you cannot be talking to me, there's no way you're aiming at me and he's gone again and then I've snapped, I've lost my head and I said some things which I shouldn't have said which is a bit disrespectful and the manager told me that a half time and I went out and scored another two, scored a hat-trick. Best way to answer. And then I was sat on the bus on the

way home and I was still thinking about it, I was thinking what is going on here? Why has he come for me? And that was his skill set, he knew that was all aimed at Ronaldo, it was all aimed at Nani. And if he would have done that to Cristiano Roustini, he would have started crying. You'd see tears and he's doing it to me

and I'm like jumping up and I'm like, wrapped up and I'm like, repped up. So that was his skill set, but I'd say that was probably the worst one.

In terms of what I said, I shouldn't have said some of the things I said. A few swear words for anyone at home, I'm sure, that was involved. But that gets me onto the 2010, the transfer request with the manager. That's one of the things in, when we've shared the dressing room, it's one of the things I look back and go, that weren't in Wayne's nature to do that, because he was always a team first guy and the transfer request,

the statement went out on the morning of the game and that's when I thought, this ain't the Wayne I know.

So the club offered me a five-year deal, a lot of money. I wasn't pushing back on money, the deal was there. I had no issue with that. And then we sold Ronaldo, we'd sold Tevez. And I've said before, I'll say again, no disrespect to Chris Small and Phil Jones.

We've been done to. And so I'm like, this is probably my biggest contract I was ever gonna sign so I wanted to be right I wanted to know. So I went into the manager and I was like before I had no issue with the contract before I go any further with the contract, what's the plan here? Who are we bringing in to replace Tevez Manalo? And he went for me.

In the meeting?

Yeah, just me and him. He's gone for me, so I was like, no problem. Walked out, got in my car, drove over to Old Trafford and met David Gill. And I was like, there's no talking to him. I think it's a legitimate question to ask

because I'm committing the next five years of my biggest five years of me career to the club. And I think we've got a right to, so looking back, was I right, was I wrong? I don't know. I shouldn't have questioned Alex Vergen

because everything he's done. But I still think I had a... A right to ask the question, didn't you? Given who's gone out the door. Are we in transition for the next three years? Are we going to be in transition

for three years and then start competing? Or are we going to be competing now from next season and that's really all I want to know then I went home I spoke to David Gill and there was a few amendments on the contract, we all agreed David Gill calmed everything down and agreed to sign it. So what happened in the next 48 hours like what was going on? I signed the the next morning. So when you put this statement out, what was going through your head? Was you nervous about putting it out?

No, I had to leave the club a while before. So the manager came out, it was a Champions League game, and scolded me and said my ankle was done, I was out for like six, eight weeks. So then that was the manager's opportunity to then bring it all to the media. Like there was no warning, there was no...

And it just went and it obviously went massive. So I'm thinking I need to protect myself, and try and put some understanding into why I've made this decision and then put a statement out. My regret on that was I put out and it was match day and I should never have done that. And as you said before, that's not me. Everything I do is for the team. Even if I'm left out the

starting line-up, I won't make a fuss out going to the manager the next day if I'm left out the starting line up, I won't make a fuss out, go and see the manager the next day if I don't agree with it, whatever. So that was me, big regret. I thought, come in the next day and I apologise.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. You came in and apologised for it and I thought, okay, he understands. And then, obviously you signed.

Yeah, and then signed the new deal. Was it ever the same with the managers? I think that question I asked then in 2010... It still hasn't been addressed from 2010. I think fans have seen that. When fans look back, they'll be like, you know what,

he actually seen what was coming a little bit and I don't think it's been fixed since 2010. Did that situation affect your relationship with Agafo? Yeah. Going forward? Me and the manager were really close and we'd mess around and I've bantered that and the relationship was around and I'd banter and that. And the relationship was different. I absolutely love them, I respect them. Might have been the best ever,

but the relationship was never the same.

Wow.

And you say there that was like, that has never been addressed since 2010 when you started that question. So in your eyes, that's like the start of the decline to where we are now.

Well, if I look back to 2010, I don't think it has. I don't think... We obviously won the league in 2013. But... Lots changed, obviously, commercially,

social media, everything's changed, but I still think when we lost Ronaldo and Tevez, from that moment, we've got Robin in, obviously, for a couple of years, but from that moment, the club has never had a group of forwards who you look before my time with Teddy, with Socha, Coley, Yorkie. Then you've got me, Ronaldo, Tevez, Hervitov, Saha. From that moment, the club have never had a group of forwards who can all play and win your games.

And that is Man United. Man United, you'll see different. You have your defenders and your players who... This is a striker talk. ...who are unbelievable and keep you in games and whatever. But this group of four players, they're going to go and win you the game. Think back to 2010, they haven't had a group

of forwards where, if I'm playing and I'm not playing well and you could burp yourself on the bench or tethers at times on the bench. So hot. I'm certain you're like that needs to play well. Sometimes when you're going through a bad period sometimes it's actually alright for the manager to take it out and say just stay away you're going to play, you might be on the bench and people just

take that pressure off you. If you're not scoring, so it's, I honestly don't think it's been interesting to them. What is a United player? You're talking about players and you were spoken about characteristics of players and yourselves. What is a United player? I mean Giggsie, we had him on the show a few weeks back and he was quite interesting. He said you have to run, be able to handle the ball and entertain with risk and have imagination. That absolutely applies to you in the way that you're made up. Do you feel that the same?

I don't think I could disagree with any of that.

I think you have to run and wear... Is that due food at the same time? I don't think I could disagree with any of that.

You have to run and wear... The one thing that Man United always said, which has always stuck with me, was the hardest thing to do in life is work hard every day. And that's always stuck with me. Man United play, you have to work, you have to be ruthless, be relentless and you have to play with attitude. I had attitude on the pitch. Yeah, shirt cut, Rooney with the hairs coming out, there's an attitude about that.

I used to play with attitude and not in a bad way but I used to look across the tunnel and see James Collins to West Ham or Villa where I think, you can't touch me. I'm using him as an example. I used to look across at defenders and think, what are you going to do? You can't control me. You can't deal with me. So I always felt I was in control of the defenders. And that's actually the...

Even the John Terrys, the Saul Campbells?

Yeah, I think at the time, JT was always difficult. Obviously, I know the history of you and JT, but JT was always... It got easier to play against JT the more I played. First two, three years when Marino came in, there was JT, Cavallo, McAleary in front,

him, Ash, him, left back, Ivanovic just started to... It was horrible. And I used to always look at him and think, I'll run you in the channels. But he never...

He positioned himself well. he never let me do that but then the more it went on I started to understand his faults. A big fault for JT and for all the Chelsea players is as soon as the ball went wide they just dropped, they just dropped on the goal line so all you have to do is just stop running. Just stop running, they cut the ball went wide, they just dropped. They just dropped on the goal line. So all you have to do is just stop running.

Stand still.

Just stop running, they cut the ball back and they're on the goal line. So you start then to understand the old traits, what they've got and try and counteract it.

Do you, I just want to, this is the last topic before we finish, just wanted to, if you don't mind touching on it, is Kai, your son. He's a budding young player now. He's trying to start a career in the game. He's 15 years old now. Thinks he'll be on the 16s next year.

What's it like for you as a parent now trying to bring up a young kid who wants to be a footballer? And what are you doing to help him?

Um, just talk to him. to be a footballer and what are you doing to help him? Just talk to him.

It's funny because you said last night over dinner, I found him really interesting. In a world of where stepovers and skills is like the big marketable thing, it's on social media. You said you're saying to him, I don't want to see any of those skills. I want to see end product and running.

If you're doing a step over to beat someone, fine, but you know as a defender, if I'm facing, you're facing me, I've got the ball. And when I was younger, I know if I knock the ball past you, you can't catch me. So what you do, you bring me down, you get a yell card, I get past you, you might

get a penalty, a free kick in a dangerous position. Power, being raw, aggressive in how you run is everything. So I was saying football is actually a simple game where you can go around the... I was on the beach and I beat that two weeks home. I seen two kids and I think it must have been the grandad kicking the ball to each other on the beach and the grandad was unbelievable. Like technically, I was watching, I was thinking, he's unbelievable.

So many people in this world can control the ball, can pass the ball, technically can be really good. But then it's what's inside you.

Are you willing to run? Are you willing to hurt?

Is it what's inside you?

Can you see that in him? Can you see that ability to be powerful, to run over people and have that bit of narcissism that you had?

He comes on, he cooks for himself, he's fluent in Spanish, he comes in, he goes in the gym, gets his programme, goes in the gym at home, goes to team, absolutely loves it. So over the last six months I've started to see me in him as a player. Oh nice. I got left footed so hopefully...

Is it a hindrance that you're his dad though?

He doesn't care about it.

That's the important thing isn't it, what he thinks.

We went to games when Ronaldo came back to us, Ronaldo's lad, my lad and Michael Karrick's lad were on the same team. Imagine rocking out to that. Use a lot of silence. ...routes around the pitch and Kai has never bothered about that. He's on his journey, it's not my journey.

I think the hardest thing is though, I think is what I've found, which I'm sure you probably would agree with is, up to now you're saying you can see it, but there's a period or maybe other kids where you're saying you can see it, but there's a period, or maybe other kids, where you're going, how do I create the hunger in these kids? Because they're so privileged.

Yeah, it's... There's no right or wrong answer. I've got obviously four boys and they're all different and in different ways. You can't give someone...

Hunger. Yeah.

Desire. You can't, it has to be in them. And if it's not, then you may as well stop playing. Desire and hunger is, that's football.

And you want to see it, right?

That's football, that's entertainment. People talk about entertainment and going NFL or basketball or rugby. All the best clips now with social media is when people come to me in my career, all the trophies I've won, goals I've scored the amount of people who come to me and say him

That goal when you run back and tackle the defending. Hmm and all of them was one And the forward messed up because he should have passed it and I was waiting. I was thinking please have one more touch All I do is run tackle tackle go forward and put a long ball in the box and the amount of people who come to me and say, that was unbelievable.

And that desire, that hunger, that passion, man, if you've got that, you've got a chance. Obviously ability and technically, that's all stuff you can work on and improve. I don't think you can work on...

It's hard to run though, isn't it? It's hard. It takes effort. It takes pain.

Yeah, I've seen you walking in some mornings, mate. So walking everyone back... He's never going to play a game of football again in his life. I've been lucky. I can actually move and function still today. A bit heavier, but I can actually move and function still today. It's a bit heavier, but I can...

You're lucky, man.

I can move, my knees are fine, ankles, joints. So I've been lucky, but... Running is... It's horrible, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. But if you put a ball there, I can do it all day.

Listen, Wladol, thank you very much. Listen, Wladol, thank you very much. Appreciate your time, man.