Why Bengal Is Declining: Politics, Violence & Mamata Banerjee | Mrityunjay | FO493 Raj Shamani

How do you see Bengal?

Before the Britishers came, India's GDP was 25% of the world's GDP. In that, only Bengal's GDP was 40%. It was such a significant state. But where Bengal is today, I think it's a very sad thing.

Mrityunjay Sharma, a politician, entrepreneur, and author who is known to tell the reality of her state. Mamata Banerjee, like how did she rise?

To one of the few ladies or leaders in the country, I would say, who is self-made.

What is the truth behind the rape of a woman?

Around 1993, there is a rape of a deaf girl. And a CPM guy is involved in it. Mamata says, you go to the CM's office. And then later, when they call the Police Commissioner, Budhadev Bhattacharya, to get her out of there at any cost. The police pulls Mamata Banerjee's hair,

gets her out of there, puts her in the jeep and takes her away.

So she's the minister? Yeah. How Bengal, which was once India's economic powerhouse, is slowly struggling between system and ground reality. Because you said that CPM's power was very strong in the last 34 years.

Didn't people fear that Mamata would be voted out?

Exactly.

Whenever there is going to be a rise and fall in Bengal, violence increases. It happened just now, after Lok Sabha elections. Somebody voted for BJP, they came back to their house, the husband was pulled out, he was killed. Multiple such instances.

At this point, because we're talking about Bengal, are women safe?

RG Kaur Hospital, post-graduate medical student, she was raped and murdered. The sad part there is, the Mamata Banerjee response, girls shouldn't go out at night. So there you do not feel that sensitivity

that should come from a chief minister and that to a women chief minister. Situation of Bangladeshi who come to India, is that gotten better or worse? If you see the Bengal border with Bangladesh, it's about 2200 km. So there have always been migrations. The problem with this is that Mamata Banerjee is as much in support of these people as possible because all of these people vote for Mamata Banerjee.

And what's the controversy around Vande Mataram? What about the recent smuggling case I heard? Do you think the current situation in Bangladesh has anything to do with West Bengal? I have a request for you. Our goal is to take an Indian podcast to a global level. And as of today, we need 20.8 million subscribers to reach there. So if our channel has provided you with a little value, please subscribe.

It's free, it costs you nothing, but it means a lot to us. And in return, we promise to bring the the most valuable conversations every single time. To listen to the audio experience of this episode, you can follow us on Spotify. West Bengal, our guest is back. The state champion. Every time you come to a state, you talk about a state and then you degrade it,

their history is ruined. I really like that. I feel, I genuinely, and I have to say this, right? I feel that the history of states that I learn from you, I haven't read it anywhere in my school books. My history is, you give me perspective from politics point of view,

industry point of view, what is the scene of casteism, religion, mafia, good, bad, ugly, I love it. I think we should do it for every state. One state at a time. This is our third state, West Bengal. Tell me, let's start from this.

How do you see Bengal today? What is the state there?

I think Bengal is one of the most interesting states in India. One of the most interesting tales of how... So, there's a very beautiful line which says, the best stories are made out of miseries.

Okay. Right?

So I think there's not a more miserable story. Bengal ke jaisa. Bengal jahan se shuru hua aur Bengal aaj jahan pe hai. And a lot of people may not like this statement, lekin aaj jahan Bengal hai, woh bahut dukh ki baat hai mujhe lagta hai. Right? And a lot of people may not like this statement. But I think it's a very sad thing to see Bengal today.

And there's context to it. Just 200 years ago, the Britishers entered India. Where did the Britishers enter India? The entry was fine. They had different points. Finally, they settled in Calcutta, Fort William.

The Dutch came. They built their center in Chinsura, which is in Bengal. French came, Chandan Nagar, which is again on the same Hooghly river, you will see all these three centres, it is all situated on that Hooghly river to the port of Calcutta. All of them, why did they come to Calcutta? Why did they settle there? Because if you see Calcutta, and when I say Calcutta, the Bengal region broadly, it used to be the most prosperous state or suba, we used to say suba in the Mughal region.

Suba of the entire subcontinent. I am talking about the whole subcontinent. So, if we say that India's GDP, before the Britishers came, the world's GDP was one-fourth, 25% of India's GDP. In that, Bengal, and there are debates on that, in that only Bengal's GDP will be 40%.

It was such a significant state. Now, this is just economy that I'm talking about. Talk about literature. Talk about renaissance. Where did the renaissance come from in India? Bengal is called the renaissance.

It's not called the renaissance anywhere else. The first social movement Social movement in India started in the beginning. In our society, there was a kind of Kuridhiya, child marriage, casteism, untouchability. Who started against it?

Raja Ram Mohan Rai, Ishwar Chandra Vidya Sahib. All of them hailed from Bengal. If you talk about sciences, where did J.C. Bose come from? Bengal. If you talk about literature, Rabindranath Tagore,

Mankim Chandra Chattopadhyay, where were they from? Bengal. So, Bengal is actually that region which is economically, socially, culturally, India's richest region. And it is said that the Britishers

ruled the Western Hemisphere from London and ruled the entire Eastern Hem ruled by Calcutta. So Calcutta was one of the two capitals of the world. So when you see that place coming down from that pinnacle, that feels very sad. What have we made of it?

And secondly, we are not even ready to accept it. We won't accept it. We still have that pride that we are still culturally, socially, we are still far ahead.

Rich guys, we are rich.

Yes, we are rich. That hangover doesn't go away. So, that's something like, the responsibility is gone, but the attitude of the responsibility is still there.

But why did this happen? Like you're saying, and I was reading a stat, that the industrial contribution of India in GDP, you're talking about 200 years ago, I'm talking about 1947, still 27%.

Yes, 27%.

Like after independence also, it was at 27%, today it's less than 3%.

Correct.

So their contribution was so significant, even after independence. Yes. Whatever the Britishers came and created a lot of destruction, up and down. Forget that. It was in our hands. Our rulers were there. Our government was there. After that, what happened is that it was downhill and today Bengal is not able to attract. Neither is it attracting investors, nor is it able to keep its youth there.

And you just keep hearing violent stories.

Why?

What has happened? So that's a very good stat. When we were free, its contribution was 27%. Interestingly, Bombay had 33%. But another interesting point is that in Bombay, Maharashtra and Gujarat used to come.

So Gujarat was separated when the states were reorganized. So, if you remove Gujarat, Calcutta was the leading industrialized region of India. Until the time of independence. So, that's very interesting. It is said that the entire industrial revolution of the UK, you will see that it was it with the money of Bengal.

You know, Bengal,

the Britishers, the East India Company that came, and after that established themselves as a ruler, so-called.

after which they got revenue rights. That Bengal, Bihar, Odisha, this region will be collected by Diwani. Diwani used to say revenue. And the Mughals said that you will collect it, give us a share. So, it was legitimized. Robert Clive was the Governor General in 57, when he actually annexed this. Robert Clive went back to the UK in 1760. He took 3 lakh pounds. It made him one of the richest men in Europe. And then he came back again in 1767. He took 4 lakh pounds again.

Somebody who was just a governor general of Bengal for three years and four years, returning with 7 lakh pounds, then it would today be at least 50 million dollars or pounds. So, you think about the prosperity that would have been. Now again, back to 1947. Even then, there was no decline. You know, even with all this, I would say, Bengal survived. Right? Because again, there was so much of potential. The people, education-wise, we have

taking in as the first colleges. The premier colleges were established in Calcutta. Presidency College was established in Calcutta. Calcutta Medical College was established there. To us, culturally, educationally, they were still very prosperous.

Kuki Britishers jab rule b, they took out clerks and babus from that region. There is education spread there, which you call Macaulay and all those westernized education. So, during that time, during the entire nationalist movement, you will see that they were culturally, economically, it will work, as rich. We got independence. The first strike was that Bangladesh separated when West Bengal and East Pakistan separated. Now, economically, as soon as East Pakistan and West Bengal separated,

you will see that the most flourishing industry was the jute industry. So, the jute mills were all in West Bengal. Jute producing areas were in Bangladesh. So, the first strike was there. In the beginning, you will can see the partition, it was very interesting. People did not know that actually they were in India or Bangladesh or in East Pakistan.

In fact, they got freedom on 15th August and the award of Radcliffe commission came on 17th August. So, when people were waving their flags of freedom, in the border areas, many people assumed, like in Murshidabad, Bengal, people assumed that it was a Muslim majority, assumed that they were going to Bangladesh. So, everyone there waved the Pakistan flag.

Right? And vice versa, in some regions in Bangladesh, they waved the India flag. Then it would be East Pakistan. East Pakistan. Right? I am talking about 15 August, because the commission award had not come yet.

Right? So, people just assumed that we are part of this nation, right? Finally, Bangladesh was made. And because of this, in the West, you will see that the border was fortified very quickly. It did not happen in the East. It was still very porous. People had marriages, relationships, and farms were here and there.

So, there were still border areas. So, the jute kept coming. There were still supplies in the factories. So, it didn't have a very immediate effect. But slowly, as the borders started to be sealed, in 1950, the Nehru-Liaquat Pact was passed.

The border was sealed. People will not be allowed to go from one side to another. So, slowly, the supply of jute was over. Jute industry suffered. Now, the government said, okay, to compensate for this, we will give heavy industries to the state. So, in the beginning, you will see, there are a lot of, like Asansol, the region in Durgapur, coal is produced there, iron ore is produced, so a steel factory was set up there, in a very big Durgapur. A few heavy industries were given for compensation. But on the other hand,

Nehru ji, in fact, we had discussed in Bihar if you remember, in 1952, he brought the policy of freight equalization. The same is true. Right? That wherever mineral is produced in India, everyone should get it at an equal price so that there is a kind of industrialization in the whole country. So, West Bengal is a very mineral mineral rich state. So, coal, iron ore, it's a very good rich state. But it didn't get any advantage because of the freight equalization policy. Right? Still, it kept on going. You'll see. The major turn that came, you'll see,

was around 1965. What? Two major industries in Bengal were jute and engineering. Right? Jute was suffering from such losses. Engineering was a huge industry. If you look around Kolkata, there were factories all around. Especially in Havra, which is on the other side of the river. And these engineering industries were largely dependent on parts and components that were supplied to the railways.

Indian railways. There were many companies. Andrew Yule, Braithwaite, Jessup, all these big companies.

So, they supplied parts and components to the railways. Andrew Yule, Braithwaite, Jessup, all these big companies. So, they supplied parts and components to the railways.

Now, in turn, they had small ancillary industries

which supplied small parts to them. In 1962, China was there. In 1965, Pakistan was there. At that time, there was a huge famine in our country. Right?

Famine. Right? It was dry. It was starved. It was starved. And there was a lot of problem with the grain. In fact, we had pleaded with the US for grain. The US had somehow refused us. A lot. So, the government said in the budgets that we will have to curtail the budget a lot. That we will keep only the important expenses, which are a little non-essential, we will remove that too. expenses, which are non-essential, will be removed. So, non-essential means that the

capital expenditure will be finished. So, the railways budget was slashed. In 1965, the railways budget was around 270 crores. Every year, it gradually cut down to 70 crores and now it is at 94 crores. One third. And Bengal was the only country that did not supply parts and components to the Ancillary Industries. That was first. Second, what happened, we will see this in the whole region, there were elections in 1967, in the center and in all the states. In the beginning, elections were held at the same time. Those were the first elections

in which, in a way, the Congress government lost in many states. Congress could not come back into power. Right? It had Bihar, UP and Bengal. Bengal became a non-Congress government for the first time. Right?

It became a government of the United Front. It had left parties, centrist parties, Bangla Congress, and many other parties. Ajay Mukherjee became its Chief Minister. Now, as soon as left parties came into power, the principal opposition in Bengal was left to to They are giving a speech, 20-50-100 people are sitting, they gave a protest and left in the evening. This is a protest. They said, why are you giving a protest? You should be surrounded. What do we do in a surrounding? We enter the factory, the manager sits there, he sits in front of the gate.

We won't let you leave.

Why?

It's a more aggressive form of protest. Right? So, you have to understand the principle of communism. What does communism say?

What is communism? In simple language.

Communism says that all the resources that should be controlled by the community. And when I say community in terms of a nation state, it is a country. So, the state should control all the resources. Private property is almost absent.. So, state controls all the resources, private property is almost absent, and then state redistributes the resources. So, state decides the factories and everyone is equal. So, this is working, so let's get that. This is also working, so let's get that. North Korea, essentially. Or you will see many others.

There are different types of it. The more you grow in the field, the more you eat. It's as simple as that. There is no special treatment. There should be no difference. That is the principle. You will see that the first wave of this came from the Russian Revolution.

After that, the Communist Party was established in India. It sounds very interesting to hear, communism. That everyone has equal rights. No one is big or small. But it doesn't actually work, practically. Why? Because as human beings, you are driven by incentives. Right?

I can tell you, Raj, that no matter what you do, you'll only get 500 rupees a day. Because the worker who is building the house is only getting 500. Would you work as hard? Or would you put your talent, your resources, other things to use? No. But as humans, we are, your resources, other things to use?

As humans, we are driven by incentives.

Correct. So it practically doesn't work, right?

But this is a very famous statement which says, if you are not a communist at the age of 20, you do not have a heart. But if you are a communist at the age of 60, you do not have a mind. Really? Right? So, essentially, you are fighting for the workers, for the farmers, for everyone, right? So, you will see, first it came to Russia, then, you know, the communist revolution came to China then it came to Cuba, right? In Vietnam, you know, they fought the US. So it was on the rise in the world.

There was a Cold War going on, two axes, capitalism versus communism, which is US versus Russia. So the communists owed their allegiance to Russia, Russia and then China, right? And they say, this is a class struggle, haves versus have-nots. And this class of have-nots should have brotherhood all over the world. And hence, for example, when the India-China war happened in 1962,

they refused to support India to say that the government in India is the government of haves, the government of privilege. So we cannot support this government. We will support the fight of have-nots all over the world. have nots. And hence, India is an aggressor against China. They forget rules of country, country, that our people don't matter to them. That's what I'm saying. It's just ideology over everything. So they consider that the class of have-nots

should be an across-world brotherhood. Nationalism, get rid of it. They are the same class, gen, let's consider them a nation. Have-nots across the world are nation kinds. Now what happens is,

when you fight for the workers, they see that you are fighting for them. But if you look at it in the long term, and Bengal is a living example of this, at that moment, the workers thought that they were fighting for them, but what happened eventually? So for example, if you look at the data in 1965, there were 178 overall strikes. By 1970, it was 679. Three and a times. Now, what happens in response to strikes? Now, there is a strike in a factory for a month. Now, the owner will say, I won't be

able to do it here. My factory is closed for a month. No sales are going on. I have so much inventory. My cost is increasing. So, he will say that I am doing a lockdown. I mean, I am either temporarily closing the factory or, you know. Not closing it down. Right? We will see the same number of lockdowns. When the strikes have been extended a lot, there was no agreement between the two parties. So, we will see the numbers of lockdowns. It was around 50 in 1965 and it has become 128 in 1970. Right? So, many times, this fight,

you know, which seemingly looks like we are fighting for those who have nothing. In the end, the people who suffer the most are those who suffer.

If the industries shut down, then employment is over.

Exactly. And when it shut down, then half of the people realize that whatever they were getting earlier, that was much better than what we are today.

Because now they are not getting anything.

They are not getting anything.

Right?

So, if you look at 1967 to 1970, 67 to 70 years, in just three years. Again, Congress imposed Section 356, released the government, then elections, then Section 356, and so on. But even in that instability, people knew that the government was with them, with the workers. On the other hand, the industrialists, in the remaining days, they will bear it to a great extent, even if the government is neutral. When they see that whatever happens, the government is not with them. of But eventually he will pull out. Right? In 1970, the data you gave, initially it was 27% of the industrial output. In 1970, it went to 13.5%.

It became half.

It became half. This was the effect of broadly those 5 years and 3 years of that communist or the united front rule.

Just few years killed half of the GDP contribution.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, this happened till 1970. After that, Congress came into power. Siddharth Sankar Rai became its Chief Minister. Emergency happened. Siddharth Sankar Rai used to be very close to Indira Gandhi. He is called the architect of emergency, in fact.

It is said that he is the one who advised Indira Gandhi that you should declare emergency. So, those 6-7 years were very unstable. In 1977, again, elections were held after the emergency was lifted. In the whole country, in many states, you know, non-congressal government was there. In Bengal, for the first time, a stable left government was there, with a full majority. The government of CPM was there. Jyoti Basu was made its chief minister. Now, Jyoti Basu was chief minister was made from 1977 to 2011. It was the CPM government. There was a change in between.

It's 34 years. It's the longest surviving democratically elected government in the world. Now, this is both good and bad. In what ways? So, essentially, it says longest surviving communist government nahi. Bahut saare hain duniya mein. Right? Lekin woh jaha bhi communist government surviving

itna lamba hai, woh democratically elected nahi hai. That speaks volumes about communism in itself. So, communism and democracy, yes. Rarely there are countries where they have co-existed. It is only in India. And this is the beauty of India then. Even for ideology, with which many people will not be in sync, and it keeps winning again and again,

and many times how it wins, we will discuss, which is not very fairly, still, that government kept running in this country for 34 years, and we said, okay, they are being elected, so they have a right to rule in that state. This is both the beauty of democracy in India and then speaks volumes about communism.

How did they win in the left front of CPM? All of a sudden, because Congress was the face in the country. How did they win from Congress? What was the reason?

Yeah. So, if you look at the communists, they have a lot of disagreements within them. So, if you look at the communist factions in India, there are at least 60 factions. Now, coming to 1977, when they won elections. So, what happened was, because of the emergency, you know, Congress had no big leaders left. So, in 77, anyway, you will see that they are standing with the workers, with the people who are standing with the farmers.

So, they had a popular support. And the communists are a cadre-based party, a disciplined party. So, it is not driven by one person generally. Ideally, it happens in some places. But you will see, the cadres, you know, the top body of the decision-makers, the Politburo will take it and everyone will follow it. So, for example, in 1996, a very fractured mandate came into the country.

The United Front government was formed when Dev Gowda became the PM. The first proposal to become the PM was brought by Jyoti Basu. But the Politburo refused.

Who refused?

The Politburo, which is their top decision-making body, refused.

Why?

Because they said that our struggle is for the have-nots. And our principle will get diluted when he becomes the PM of a coalition government, which has different theories. So we cannot dilute our principles.

So you left the PM's chair.

Yes.

He could have become the PM.

Yes, Jyoti Basu was the first name that had propped up when the United Front government was formed.

Then Dev Gowda became the PM.

When the Politburo refused.

Isn't it like blunder?

So again, they would say that principally we are correct.

But then practically it's a blunder because you're losing power. And if there is no power, how will you support ideology?

I agree there. But again, that's what I'm saying.

Even if, let's say, for one second, they had to spread their ideology all over the country, that was the best way for them to spread that ideology?

Yes.

Could have been.

But no.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, they said no.

They said no. So, when they came in 1977, and in the beginning, you will see, they did a couple of good things. Right. In the beginning, they did a couple of good things. Right? First of all, they brought Operation Barga. Right?

And you will see, as soon as we were freed, almost all the states brought in the responsibility abolition laws.

Right?

And after that, they brought in the Land Sealing Act. That a person can keep only this much land. So, like Bihar said, if there are plain areas, then 30 acres maximum. If there are hill areas, then 50 acres maximum. Hill areas are 50 acres maximum. So, everyone brought their own laws. And the surplus land, the government said, we will take it and distribute it on the land list. That was the principle. Now, that happened across the country. But people took out a roundabout. So, I transferred my land in someone else's name. Right? And I told the person who works in my house,

I am transferring it in your name. 10 acres him. He worked for me all his life. I know he will never revolt. Or I told him that I am giving 5 acres in the name of a school. Or I am giving 5 acres in the name of a temple. In some cases, it was anonymous. I mean, a random person.

And at that time, there were so many identities, and CoLink, Pan, and Aadhaar Linkage. So, in the surplus land can be acquired. Very less. And hence, redistribution is very less. Isn't this bad for the state?

Like what?

Because if you take all the people who have big lands, they will probably use it to build industries or build 4-5 things. You take land from them. You give all the landless people. So, you essentially make all out of the entire state. But to provide the farmers, you need fertilizer, crops, and milk.

You need to process the mills, and you need to make lentils. You need to do all these things. You are essentially eliminating all of that in the state. So, definitely, you are doing a good job of social welfare. You are giving land to all the farmers who don't have land. But what will they do with that land if there is no money, no crops, no things on which they can use to make something?

So, a very valid point, Raj. So, see what happens. You are seeing in the frame of reference that you are wishing for the landless to be more prosperous, right? That some value addition people should be able to work. But look at the class we are talking about. We are talking about a class who is landless. Landless means he does not have any social security. He does

not have any salary. He does not have the security to eat what he needs, which is the first level of Maslow's hierarchy. So before I give him anything, like a cycle, fan, or a cooler, I would want to guarantee his food first. How can I guarantee food? If I give him a acre of land, I know that he will earn and eat the level of it. Right? And they were able to do it beautifully. Yes, much better than most of the other states in the country.

Okay. Yeah. So that's one thing that they did well. Second, they thought that… CPM. Yes, CPM.

Now they thought that, you know, there is a the other states in the country. Okay. Yeah. So, that's one thing that they did well. Second, they felt that… CPM. Yes, CPM. They felt that, you know, till now we have been protesting against the government. You know, they have been waving the red flag, saying that the entire industry, all the capitalists

are thieves, etc. Now that we are in government, with a full majority, how can we treat the industries? to support them. Right? But the big industries, we are not going to support them. Right? And we will not let any investment of MNCs in Bengal. Clear policy. Right? So, they wanted to essentially say that there are small industries and where there is more employment, we will support them. But there are monopolies, there is money of MNCs, there are big industries, we will not support them. Right? Principally, again, looks okay. But wherever… See, the industry, the answer is, it will be smaller than that, and then it will be smaller than that. So, it's a 5-6 layers process. Correct.

Secondly, when there is a big industry, there will be 150-500 people employed, who will have a disposable income, and they will spend on something. And those small cottage industries will be the ones who make those things. So, nowhere in the world can cottage it sounds good. But no, it doesn't work that way. Essentially, you are saying that don't bring big companies to India. Even if they are, you should be careful.

This went on happening. And in a way, the militant trade unionism that is being spoken about, if you see, the biggest movements of the trade union in India were in Bengal and Kerala. Because again, there were communists in both the places. trade union They say that in the 80s, if you wanted to change the bulb in a factory in Bengal, you had to take the union's permission. So where trade unions become so powerful, where they know that we can close the factory

in two minutes, we have that leverage and power, they'll start dictating the most basic of terms also. Because if I want to raise controversy, I can raise controversy on anything. I've been in factories where workers have created a ruckus at the size of a samosa in the evening, during breakfast.

Right?

Because the discontent must be of something else.

Right?

Someone has to become a politician in that. Right? Now, this went on happening during an era. Now, Jyoti Basu was reha hai 77 se 91 tak. 24 years. Sorry, 2001 tak.

24 years. Ab isi dauran 91 ke reforms bhi aate hain. But this party was till 2011. 2011, then Buddhdev Bhattacharya ji came in.

Okay, but the same party.

2001 mein you said, reforms started in 1991. Correct. So, till 1990, I agree that there was a lot of situation in the whole country. There was license, you know, license was in power, quota was in power, that who will produce how many factories, who will not, take license, etc. In 1991, at least, MNCs, they opened up to investments and all of that. In fact, the southern states were the best people who took advantage of that, right? In fact, all the states

that you see today, these success stories, Karnataka, Andhra, before 1991, they were not the successful states. All of them are product of liberalization, right? So, when they did it on that path, Bengal stuck to its core. So, there to 2003 is a very interesting date. There was a research published. It said that in this era of liberalization, the biggest investments in India were made by only two states, Maharashtra and Gujarat. Because they were the magnets of investment. It says that Bengal got 5% less. If you look at value, it's less than 4%.

And the proposals that came in that, very interesting. Gujarat was able to convert 55% of them. Bengal converted 35% of them.

Why is that?

That's what I'm saying. They're so indifferent to it. That's not my priority. I consider industries as enemies. So if you come, I'll ask you four questions. What will you make? How will you make it? How many factories will you keep?

How many factories will you keep my man? So it will seem like I'm doing a favor by giving you land for the factory. Letting you install a factory is a favor.

So you don't let me progress?

It doesn't make a difference to me personally. The ideology of my party, have to pay money. Through some other ways. Explain. If there is a party that wants us to help all the poor people here.

Right?

We have a fight that the rich are useless. The one who has a lot is useless. So, take it from them and give it who have nothing, we have to give them more. So, when industries are coming, we should allow them so that we can take from them and create more employment here, create disposable income for them, and then create spend. A very logical question. So we will create correct spend. Everything will be with them.

A very logical question, right? So in the first level.

It's like they are becoming, I don't know if I should say this, but technically what I can understand, that you have become very good at managing poverty. But you have failed in getting people out of poverty.

Exactly. That's a beautiful way in which you can summarize this. So, first, I'm letting industries come. But what I'll do is, I'll say, you guys suppress the workers a lot. How will you pay them 500 rupees a day? You work so hard, you'll have to pay them 1000 a day. Now, what is it essentially saying? I'm saying it logically, I'm saying it's good for the workers. But that factory can't survive by giving Rs. 1000.

Because it's a global market. No one will buy it in India.

Correct. So now somebody will have to be very moderated to think from both sides. I will have to show this balance to say that industrialists are not thieves. Okay, I would have a noose on them that they don't do anything wrong. I won't let them exploit.

Correct. a news on them that they shouldn't do anything wrong. Right? I won't let them exploit.

Correct. But, if I let them exploit, how long will it last? That's one. Second, to keep that party in power, every poor person in Bengal doesn't need to pay money, Raj. He needs to keep his cadres motivated.

The cadres of the Communist Party. Now, what makes cadres happy? First, the cadres are so brainwashed about the communist ideology. For example, you will see that in the 60s, when the Vietnam War was going on, in Bengal, they used to protest and take to the streets for the support of Vietnam. And today's globalised world is not like that. Today, they take to the streets for the support of Palestine. That's different. What does anyone care about Vietnam in the 60s? And there were slogans like, my name is your name, Vietnam, Vietnam. There were posters on the streets of Calcutta

supporting Vietnam. For what? Because that was also a communist nation. The communists were fighting the US. Right? Now, that's what I'm saying. So, ideology is not driven. Now, what happens? How can you motivate the scatter? So So if you look at the communists, essentially, there is a big difference from the other parties. That is, the other parties have a difference between the government and the party.

There's a broad line, right? So BJP in government is a body. BJP in party is a body. They won't dictate each other every day. There will be a sync. That will happen. So essentially, just a China, I'll take over.

Right?

So here also what happens is, the CEO of the booth, the member of the zonal committee, the secretary, his position is so legitimized that if a police station or a BDO CEO office in that area says something, he will be heard as if it is a government official. Now, what happens because of this? Since he has become so legitimized, now he has the authority to get things done. When he has the authority to do these things, he is doing it and all the people around him are seeing that

this guy has so much authority. He called the police station and released him. He called the BDO office and got the money for his scheme. Now all these people take money from the rest of the people to get their work done. And this is cut money.

Hmm.

So, this is a parallel state has started. Because it is legitimacy, right? Now, I'm not saying this corruption does not exist in other places. Of course, it does. But it does. But there, their private enterprise, or their private business will be that a person has made a little bit of his own

and is taking out money. Here, it is structured in that way. It is a structure. There is a secretary of the zonal committee. So all the work in the zone will be done. If there's a PM's house here, he'll get 20,000.

It's fixed.

So if you want to build a house, you have to pay him.

That's exactly it. In fact, it's gotten really big. Like, they call it a political society. I mean, like, if there is a fight in the neighborhood, they will solve it. Their word is that final word. If there is a domestic fight at home, he will solve it.

The clubs that will be there, not fancy clubs, clubs as in the neighborhood. We play carrom together. Correct. Or if you take someone's room and make it a club. You come in the morning, sit there, have tea, read the papers,

talk about the world, from Vietnam to the US. And that becomes the center of all dispute resolution, every policy practice in that locality. So that club is legitimized.

There is no law or anything.

Who will make the law? State government?

This is the law. We are the club. Okay. And this is reality for a long time?

Yes, yes. Ever since the left government has existed there. That's what I'm saying. They have a very unique model. Party is the government and government is the party. There is no difference between the two. Right? Now, this guy who is getting cut money, he will be motivated.

Dangerous.

Exactly. Second, a little later in fact, and it is still going on, there is a lot of criticism on it, TMC government, syndicate. So, CPM says, officially says that when a lot of construction started happening near Calcutta, land was acquired. So, from where land acquisition happened, especially in Newtown area,

CPM said that the young boys there who have acquired land, make small groups and you make a kind of syndicate and supply the construction workers. Give them sand, brick, brick. You give them. Right? So, you will also earn a little bit. So OK, not bad in a sense of principle. But in the beginning, there were syndicates.

Five guys formed a group and said, you know, Baloo, Gitti, and others, if a company would have given, we would have kept giving. Gradually, the syndicates started getting structured. Gradually, it was with volition, then it was decided that we would have to take it. So, the party has legitimized it in a way.

We will have to take it from ourselves at this rate.

Right?

That rate, of course, will be higher than anywhere else. Now, this syndicate started expanding to other regions as well. Now, you have to open a restaurant in this area. And there are sting operations of many channels. You will see. At that time, it was CPM or TMC at that time.

I don't remember exactly. I was with TMC till then. So, I have to open a restaurant here. I will manage everything. Give me 4 lakhs. Essentially, permission for me.

Right?

So, will these syndicate Rajwale boys be happy? What is their problem in life? Not only will they be happy, not only will they be happy, Rajan, also understand this. A normal party worker, what is he more driven by? Some can be called ideology, some can be called that maybe he has taken some benefit from it, maybe he has taken out a small contract and has come out of the road, etc.

In this model, you have almost kind of a salary or set money.

You have given money plus power. Do you need anything else?

So now this person will be fanatically standing up for you as a party. And hence, this is the base of political violence in Bengal. That's how it is different.

So it's still going on. How did it become different from the communists? Like you said, CPM. So now CPM slowly became powerful. But when CPM was there, Naxals' birth was like that, right?

67, that Naxal body movement.

Yes, yes, yes.

And then that was over, right?

No.

In fact, so I'll come to that. So in 67, they started. They spread to some of the other parts of the country as well. You will see, when we were talking about Bihar, MCC, another offshoot, which is the largest Narsanghar in Bihar, MCC was one of the parties, largely. In Chhattisgarh, you hear the whole Buster thing all the time.

In Telangana, you hear the same thing all the time. All of it started from Naxal body. Right? There was a little repression in the middle, when Congress repressed during the emergency. After 1977, they kept on growing in some or the other ways. Right? In Bengal, you will see, there is a whole region, it is called Jungle Mahal. It is a remote area from Jharkhand. Purulia, Midnapur, all these areas, Lalgarh, there is a center there. This whole area has always been an Axel Heide Infested. Right? And the most ironical part is, why are they fighting with this?

Like, if there was another party, they would have said, that it is a party with right thought, so they are fighting with it. The government is also of the left. They say, the left is not sufficiently left. We are the extreme left. So, they are fighting with their left, actually.

With their own people, with their own ideology. to saying that by 31st March 2026, every Naxalite in this country will be wiped out. Now, when he came, I felt that this is an overstatement. Because you see, in the last 10-20 years, it's a very difficult problem. Why is it a problem? What is Naxalite? Suppose I am living in a village.

I do normal farming. I have sympathy. I am attached to it. If I have to go somewhere or do farming, I sympathize with people. I am connected to them. If I have to go somewhere or do something, I wake up one night, pick up my gun and go. I hit two people and I am back.

I am Naxalite. So, Naxalite is not a 1-0. It's just a normal person. Some people sympathize with him, some people don't. Some people give him 2 hours, some 6 hours, So how do you identify them in the first place? Not now, but it used to happen. Very clearly, the police chief used to say that the town should not be outside our area. If you want to go outside the town,

you have to inform the police, any civilian. Otherwise, you cannot go alone. Right? There were many such areas. Now, Gachiroli is the border of Maharashtra, Telangana and Chhattisgarh. Borders are easier because

the police are on one side of a state, So we infested. Now what has happened in the last one to two years is massive level pay coming across the nation Now what has happened, you will see in the last year, I think 400-500 Naxals have been killed. Some of the members of the central coordination committee, top 2-3 have been killed. Surrenders have been at massive levels. They are almost pleading for negotiations and conversations. Centre is saying no conversations now. Either put down the arms or get killed. One of those ways. So, anyway, it is breathing its last stage.

In fact, if you see, till 2014, almost 125 districts in India, 125 districts, 115 districts were called Naxal Infested. Now, it has come to 11 districts. So, it's almost end now. But till it has been there, I have been in Chhattisgarh for some time. Chhattisgarh, in 2013, they had a blast. A whole convoy was going to the state of Congress's senior leaders.

Meaning, from the chief ministerial candidates to the state's senior leaders. 73 people were killed in that. And the entire top brass of Congress leadership in Chhattisgarh wiped out in one blast. There have been such, such blasts.

I come from Jharkhand. My first chief minister, his son was killed when he was the chief minister.

Right?

So, but now, yeah, it's almost...

It was a bad scene.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, now coming back to Bengal.

Yeah.

So, this was the era of Jyoti Basu. Those industries wanted to come, but they couldn't.

Right?

And this went on till 2001. It went on till 2001.

What happened from 2001 to 2011?

So, in 2001, again, state elections were there. Right? By then, Mamata had started rising. You know, and...

But before Mamata, there was a massacre. Right? But before Mamata, there was a massacre. Which massacre you mentioned?

Maridjhapi.

What is that?

This is 1979. Maridjhapi.

Yes.

What is that? So, Maridjhapi is a very small island. It is a delta of Sundarman. So, if you look at Bengal, the southern side of Bengal where it merges with the sea, it is a very plain land. So when the river merges with the sea in a plain land, it becomes a lot of distributaries.

It becomes small islands. So it's a whole delta region. It's called the delta of beauty. Now what happened is when Bengal was divided in 1947, a lot of refugees were influxed. So there are a lot of Bengalis and Hindus. in And the maximum influx was in Calcutta. So, one is overcrowded. And in between, whenever there is religious violence,

some people come. And the border has always been very porous. Like the border of the West is completely sealed. One person cannot cross here and there. In Kashmir, one can climb a mountain and come, but that is not possible.

It is not like that here on the Bangladesh border. There are still unfenced places, there is a river, of Bengal. But even after that, it was not possible. So, the government made a Dandkaraniya plan. So, Dandkaraniya is, if you read Ramayan, when Ramji was going, then Dandkaraniya Forest is mentioned, which is a large forest area. You can take Madhya Pradesh, Odisha, Telangana,

the entire border area, the forest is called Dandkarane forest. So, it was decided to clean up the forest and settle it. Because there is no place here. So, many people were taken to Dandkarane,

the forest was cleaned up and settled there. Some people were taken to Andamanikobar, and settled there. In Delhi, in fact, if you know of this colony called Chitranjan Park, CR Park, it was built for that purpose. There were many such people. Now, these people who went there for punishment,

it was a jungle, whatever it was. They were cut down trees and told to go away. There is no community there, nor are there any basic resources. There is a risk of diseases. Right? Plus, there are no Bengalis.

There is no basic familiarity. So, they said, we cannot settle here. And there was a lot of debate on this. The leftist leaders, when there was a Congress government, they said that there is a lot of injustice happening to them. They should settle in Bengal.

There are Bengalis. This was the way it was. In 1977, their government came. This was the communication. At that time, we said that we were against it, but we can't settle like this. You come and see for yourself. We won't bother you, but we won't support you either. This was the communication. So, their recce teams came. They saw a lot of places in Sundarbans.

And they saw a small island called Marij Jhapigar. It was a jungle-like island. But they thought that it was their home. It's a Bengali area, right? Now, when the government came to know about it, they thought that they had said it, so they thought that people would settle here. This is almost inhabitable.

But the government was not aware of it. They thought that the people who had come to India to live here, they would have to go to another island to get food. But they didn't know that the people who had come to to know about this, they thought that they had said it. They didn't think that people would settle here. This is almost inhabitable.

They have settled here. So, they said that we cannot allow this. They said that this is a reserve forest area of Sundarbans. So, it is not allowed for people to live here. And they released a report that it will cause an ecological disaster if people keep migrating here. So, these people have to move out.

Now they said, we have come from so far and settled here. We have not taken anything from you. At least let us be here. Jyoti Basu said, and this is a very famous statement, that the refugees of East Pakistan or the Hindu refugees, are not just the refugees of Bengal. It's our responsibility and the responsibility of the whole country. So why should we keep it to ourselves? Right? That was a clear principle.

So in the beginning, in fact, just two days before the Gandhantra Ritwas, the government said that Article 144 should be implemented. So basically, no one can go outside that island, and no one can come inside. Now they had to go for basic drinking water as well because there was no fresh water on the island. So, first of all, they installed that.

So, people drank contaminated water there. Then, some people died because of that. Then, when the situation started getting dire, then there were gunshots from both sides. There was shooting from both sides. Some people died in that. to which is not true of course. After 15 days, the High Court intervened and said that you have to give a passage for food, water, medical facilities. Then we will see what to do and what not to do. That is a separate but that passage has to be given. Right? And then that passage a puny local pay, to refugees,

a poor party, to refugees, a poor party,

to refugees,

a poor party,

to refugees,

a poor party, to refugees, a poor party, to refugees, a poor party, to refugees,

a poor party, to refugees, a poor party, to refugees, a poor party, a poor party, population. And hence it was very, it was criticized very strongly.

It's a blatant betrayal. It is, it is. It is a blatant betrayal. Yes. Yes.

So what happened after that?

Nothing happened. It got settled. Because see, and there were so many. Again, the logic is similar. Either you don't let it settle first. Right? Or you declare it first that it is a reserved forest. And okay, so this is massacre. ACPM did all this. But all these were seen by the people of Bengal and yet they were supporting them. See, narratives matter more than the people. So, the people of Bengal are supporting the people of Bengal. So, the people of Bengal are supporting the people of Bengal. So, the people of Bengal are supporting the people of Bengal.

So, the people of Bengal are supporting the people of Bengal. Okay, so this is massacre. This is what CPM did.

But these were all Bengal people who were watching and still they were supporting them.

See, narratives matter more.

Okay.

So, many times what happens is that, as a narrative, and at that time social media and media were not that much, right? So, as a narrative, I said that, you know, what we are doing there, there will be an ecological disaster. There, Sundarbans delta will be completely destroyed and these people have settled there from Akya and there riots

are happening. There are 10 ways to justify it. Plus again, as I said, in such parties, it is important to keep your cadre convinced. As long as your cadre is convinced, it is standing with you. Voting has also been going on, you will always see in Bengal, there has always been violence. Like many times we consider other states to be very bad. There is a lot of violence in Bihar and UP. Never compare to what happens in Bengal.

There is more violence in Bengal than in Bihar.

Political violence. Any given day.

Than Bihar.

Than Bihar. Yes. Any given day, political violence. Yes. You will see elections every election. And we are. Yes. Any given day, political violence, yes. Up elections, the re-election, they can look at CPM voting. Update out how elections, pre-poll violence, post-poll violence, it's a very famous incident.

1990, the municipal elections. Municipal elections, state government, and all that, no. Now, they got municipal election, and it is called the peak of CPM violence, political violence.

There was an incident, Bantala rape, right? 15 days before the election, the CPM cadres were in front of the Bantala party office, 15 km away from Calcutta. Three women were going.

One was from the health department, the other was from UNICEF. Three were going by car. They surrounded her. a mob of CPM men, not just one or two people, a mob of CPM men, picked them up, raped them. The police justifies it and says that these people thought that they were women and were child thieves. They have come to steal children. Right? Jyoti Basu later gave a statement that such things do happen.

Right?

And these were CPM men.

So…

And it has been proved that they are CPM men.

Yes, yes, yes.

This is not even hearsay. Right? This is not even hearsay. So I'm saying it is so normalized in that society, in that political society of CPM and now TMC, that political violence is allowed to win elections. There is nothing wrong in it.

But what is this political violence? This is not political violence. This is just women's safety.

What is political in this? So, two sides to it. Elections are not with our ideology. It is an assertion of power. the situation. But it won't backfire that if they give people power, they do this to our sisters? Very good question. Then I will go the other way.

Typically, if it is happening in my society and I feel that I am powerless, I cannot do

anything against them. They have put a friend of mine in my society, and I am not able to do anything against them. Then I will go the other way. I will go the other way. Typically, if it's happening in my society, and I feel like I'm powerless, I can't do anything against them. They have done something wrong with my friend in my society.

And I can't do anything about it. The police is with them. Their CM is with them.

Yeah.

Right?

So I would not vote them.

Yes.

I would not not go and I would also not go and I would not even promote for their party out of fear. This is another angle. So, that's why you will see. Against their party, against, you will not do anything. Correct. So, I will not even put a flag of the other party on me. Or when a reporter or a person comes to me and asks who will you vote for, I will not say that I will not vote for CPM or TMC.

I have so much fear, right? So, there must be a lot of people who won't vote. That's why, let's say, when the last election took place in 2021, BJP got 38% votes. Where did those votes come from? Those 38% don't say that they vote for BJP. Still, they do. That's why they do.

Okay, so this is CPM atrocity happening.

There are a lot of such examples. And...

Give me one more.

Many. In fact, in 1990, Mamata Banerjee aggressively, she was on the scene. She has always been a very aggressive, fierce lady. Mamata Banerjee, you know, in 1984, in fact, she won the first Lok Sabha election. And that's also very interesting. Somnath Chatterjee, a very famous CPM leader, a stalwart, and from a seat which is called the Leningrad

of Calcutta.

What does that mean?

It means the hub of communists. It's the seat of Jadavpur. You must have heard of Jadavpur University. You will hear a lot of protests in the background. So that's like the hub of communism, Calcutta or Bengal. seat So prominent. protest And somehow, she comes back alive. And at the same time, Rajiv Gandhi makes her the President of the Youth Congress. He says, she's a lady. And she believes in Rajiv Gandhi a lot.

And this was very, very often in Calcutta. I think in 1993, around 1993, there was a rape of a deaf girl. And a CPM guy is involved in it. So, these people come to Mamata. Mamata is the main opposition of Congress. They come to Mamata and she says, let's go to the Writers' Building.

Writers' Building is the CM's office. They reach there. Till then, Mamata, in Narsimha Rao's government, she was a Minister of State. So, she is important, right? So she takes him to the writers' building to meet the CM. She reaches there and Jyoti Basti refuses to meet him.

Right?

She sits there for a long time and then she starts a protest. Then Jyoti Basti goes out of the other way and says, I am not meeting him. Then later on, she calls the police commissioner, Budhadev Bhattacharya, who later becomes the CM, and asks him to remove her from there. phone karte hai usko hatao kisi bhi haal mein wahan se. Police usko baal khichte hui Mamata Banerjee ko wahan se hataati hai, jeep mein bithati

hoon le jaati hai.

Jab wo minister hai.

Yeah.

National.

Yeah.

She was one of the cabmen.

Haan, haan. Minister of State in the PNRC Maharajya Govt. Congress So, this is all political violence. Exactly. That's so normalized in people's minds and hearts. Otherwise, see.

There is an election. All this will happen.

If it's politics, then it will happen. So otherwise, if you see, Bengalis as people, they're not so violent.

Right?

If you ever meet them, you talk to them. See, the normal way. You'll be in hostels. Your friends will be there. Least of the violent people that I've met in my life, right? Least of the aggressive people that I've met in my life. But in politics, in Bengal, violence takes the front seat.

Tell me, Mamata Banerjee, how did she come in the movie? Like, how did she rise?

Where did she come from? If she won an election in 29, she must have been very prominent from the start. Yes. So, the best part about her, she comes from a background which is lower middle class, no political lineage, lost her father early in the age. So, one of the few ladies or leaders in the country, I would say, who is self-made, as you call it. Right? She has come from ground zero. She has come from ground zero.

Right? And she started also very early in politics. She was studying in Maya Devi College. And she started with student politics. Right? So Congress has a student wing.

She started with that. And a very… So she hasn't lost her demeanor. It's been the same since the beginning. So, in the beginning, the theatrics that you see now, it used to be earlier as well. So, it's very famous. When Murarji Desai was the Prime Minister,

he was shown the black flag. Right? When JP came to Calcutta, he got on the bonnet of his car and started protesting. When Prakash Narayan was there. It was a stalwart, right? So, that theatrics was also theirs at that time, right? And she was very, very that way, vocal, aggressive. She supported Indira Gandhi in an emergency. Right? Because she was with the Congress, right? So, she was like, I will take a stand with Congress, I will support this, right? In 1984, as I said, first time, she won the Lok Sabha elections. Congress was not getting anyone for the Jadavpur seat.

Anyway, it was a hub for CPM. Congress was weak in Bengal and Jadavpur never thought of winning. So, Indira Gandhi was looking for a new candidate, a young candidate who would at least pose a challenge. And then Mamata was selected. Mamata has a mentor, he writes in his biography.

He suggested Mamata's name. She gets the seat and she wins it actually.

How does she win?

When there is a fight or something else. The biggest factor is that Indira Gandhi's assassination just happened. And in that sympathy wave, you will see in the whole country, Congress got a huge mandate across the country. So, mostly you will have to attribute it to that. But you will also have to give it to Mamata. It is said that Mamata is someone who will be on her feet

all the time, moving somewhere. Not somebody who is moving in a caravan or sitting at home. She is not that kind of a person. So she goes to every house and meets every person and reaches somewhere. So the actual politician ground So, actual politician ground that reflects. So, she wins in 1984. But in Congress, you'll see, there's a lot of opposition from within. She was opinionated, fierce, young, women.

So, making her space was very, very difficult for her. No political lineage. In 1989, the election was lost. So, she says, people made me lose. In 1990, the incident of Hazra, Hazra Junction, she becomes the president of the Youth Congress. Rajiv Gandhi believes in her a lot. She always considers Rajiv Gandhi as her mentor. And that's why you'll see that she doesn't attack Sonia Gandhi.

Even though she attacks Congress, she doesn't attack Sonia Gandhi. She always had a very fond relationship with Rajiv Gandhi. Then there are the 1991 elections. She changes her seat. She fights for South Kolkata seat and wins. She becomes the Minister of State in PV Narsimha Rao government. HRD, Women and Child Development, all of these. But she has a finicky nature.

So, she takes any decision. So, she became the minister. Then in 1992, there is a Brigade Parade Ground, which is the most iconic ground in Calcutta, like Delhi's Ramlila, Patna's Gandhi Maidan. So, Brigade Parade Ground.

So, in the whole assembly, they say that I am resigning from the Central Ministry. The reason is that I should stay in Bengal. I don't like the centre. So, I resigned from the ministry. Then, after a year or two, what happened was, you might remember the law that Congress brought in, the Terrorist and Destructive Activities Act.

So, I think it was brought in 1987. And every two years, there was a sunset clause. So, every two years, the government had to renew it. So, in 1993 of the theatrics. Then, in fact, in 1995, a member of parliament from the state of Delhi, a member of parliament from the state of Delhi, a member of parliament

from the state of Delhi, a member of parliament from the state of Delhi, a member of parliament to So, this is her nature. This you would observe even now.

And once she was fierce, she was very opinionated, decisive. So, because of this, there was an older guard of West Bengal Congress.

She said, I will fight for the President election against Sw West Bengal President elections. She lost. The other big leaders, Priya Ranjan Das Munsi, etc.

West Bengal's Congress President.

Correct.

Okay.

So, she lost. Rajiv Gandhi had also gone in 1991. Congress was in a bit of a shambles. And she would always say that Congress is the daughter of CPM.

Okay.

It was said that Congress is like a watermelon. It is green from outside and red from inside. Red means CPM. And there is a lot of leader's conspiracy inside. And it cannot or is not playing the role of real opposition. So, Mamata always would complain of that. So, in 1998, she said that she will form her own party. She formed the Trinamool Congress. Sunia Gandhi also convinced her a lot. She said that Congress… It will happen. No, it won't happen. And now, you will see, as soon as she formed the party, in 1998, Lok Sabha elections were held. Immediately,

they became the principal opposition. Because actually, even as the face of Congress, Mamata was established that she is the leader who actually opposed CTM. So, immediately Congress became third, she became the face of opposition as the TMC. Now, interestingly, she was with Congress till then, then TMC was formed, in 1999, Vajpayee ji's government was formed. So, she became a part of Vajpayee ji's government. But initially she said that she will support the government but from outside.

She will not become a minister. Then I became a minister, a railway minister. In between, the price of petrol went up, right? Around 2000. And Vajpayee ji was undergoing knee surgery in Bombay, in Breach Candy Hospital. So, she said,

this petrol has gone up, so I am resigning. So, Vajpayee ji then gave a written assurance that as soon as I come back, I will reconsider. So, she said, okay, I will stay. So, this part is funny also. In 2001, the sting operation of Tehelka came.

So, she resigned from the ministry. Then in 2001, state elections were held in West Bengal. So, she fought with Congress in the coalition. Then she performed very badly. of We are lagging behind somewhere. And there was a little conversation among the common people. Plus, Jyoti Basu was getting old and there were allegations of corruption. Not of himself, but of his son. He was a UK trained person.

His son was learning English. Scotch, golf. So, there was a conversation that he teaches austerity to Bengal. He wears a starched dhoti and kurta. His son is growing. Bengal is not growing, his son is growing. Bengal Bhattacharya ji was a person who was whiter than white. Very respected. He had translated Gabriel Garcia Marquez. He used to read Ramina Tagore. So, he is called Bahadur Lok in Bengal.

So, Bahadur Lok is essentially how you should conduct yourself, that gentleman. Right? CPM always maintains that you should conduct, talk, be in a certain way. Right? So, Jyoti Basu used to define the same thing, the Bhadralok. Buddha Dev Bhattacharya used to define the same Bhadralok. Fitting to be the Chief Minister of the state.

Vis-a-vis Mamta, if you look at her even at that time, even with all her protests, fierceness and everything, they would look at her in a certain way that she is frivolous. So she can be in the opposition. Right? Chief Minister is not worthy. Correct. She is not demeanour. She is not demeanour and she does anything anytime. You never know. She is not predictability. Right?

She is not coming in the Bhadralok. She is not fitting in that image. So somebody may not no predictability. It is not coming in the Bhadraloka. It is not fitting in that image. So, somebody may not see this consciously.

Gentleman's. Okay.

So, maybe not consciously, but subconsciously, it is not fitting in the image. As you feel, we cannot see this as a CM. So, as soon as Budhadeep Bhattacharya became the CM, the whole game was turned upside down. CPM came back with a thumping majority. It won 235 seats out of 294 seats.

After 24 years of rule. Wow.

Right?

Wow.

And TMC, which was fighting in coalition with Congress, fared very badly. Then Mamata felt that this is wrong. I left the ministership in the center. I was the minister of railway, in fact. And then I went to Congress and elections with Congress. I lost.

Then they told India that they wanted to come back. I think India was tired by then. George Fernandes was the convener of India. India made them wait for a year. They didn't want to live in this form. After a year, there were negotiations.

George Fernandez, in a ground in Calcutta, in the TMC rally, addresses them. He feels a little confident that now they will be fine. So, they are taken, but the ministry is not given. Minister Vinodha Portfolio. And then finally, when actually in 2004,

Luxembourg is dissolving, 15 days before that, they are given the ministry of Coal and Mines. So that was if you see her trajectory. And until 2006, I would say, elections happen in 2006, and in 2006, CPM wins again. Until 2006, while she was a fighter, face of the opposition, fears, all of those things. There are some things in her which Bengali people would appreciate, which is her austerity,

which is appreciated in Bengali politics. Pomp and show is not appreciated. So you will see she wears a white sari. She will wear rubber slippers, blue and white. She will never carry a fancy bag. If she does, she will carry a bag.

Typical. She will ride in bag if she wants to. Right? Typical. She will take a small car if she wants to. She does not take a big car. She still lives in the same house she was born and brought up in. By the way.

I didn't know this.

Yes.

So, she does not live in CM house?

No. No. No. No. And still lives with all her brothers, sisters-in-law, nephews, nieces, she is not married. So, she lives there. So, Bengal appreciates that. But they did not appreciate, but they did not see her as the chief minister's face, up against the CPM so-called, or Buddha Dev and Jyoti Basu. It was all words. 2006, she was not there. She again lost in 2006. In fact, she thought that it is not possible that she will become a center minister in the state.

But it is not possible to become a CM here. Up until 2006. What happened in 2006? When Budhadev Bhattacharya came, she thought that the conversation had started. Industries are being built in the whole country. The country is moving forward.

Software parks are being built. Nothing is happening in Kolkata. So, CPM started changing its narrative. It started giving slogans that agriculture is the base, the foundation. But the future is industry. But CPM was saying this to everyone.

Everyone was feeling very upset. How can CPM say this? But they started modelling in that way. So, Buddha Dev said, we will bring industries now. Right? Because that's the future. We cannot… We cannot work without it. So, they started talking to many industrial houses, how do we start this? But as soon as this happened, many people were given compensation. Like farmers were acquired land.

75% compensation was given. One fourth of them refused to take compensation. Then conversations started that this is a multi-crop land, that is, it has multi-crops, so it should not be used in industries. Then someone said that the conversations that were had earlier were not right with the farmers, the rates that were fixed were not right. And slowly protests started. Then a very famous incident happened in the middle. Tapsi Mallik was a 17-18 year old girl and she was a member of this

group, which was a Krishi Jami Rakha Samiti, which is to protect that land. One day, her nude burned body is found on the same site of Singur. Right. When an investigation is done on her, it is found that she was raped and burned. Right. Who did that? The fingers were pointed to two CPM cadders. They were identified actually. Right? A very famous Bengali writer, Padmabhubhushan Mila, Mahashweta Devi, she joins. Mamata Banerjee joins. Mamata Banerjee sees that this is the right opportunity. And then slowly, the movement grows. It reaches 144, and Mamata is pulled from there.

Once she goes in a jeep, she is humiliated. Then she sits in Calcutta on the Amarananshan for 21 days. This keeps on going. So, this is a gradual slow-up and down. In between these conversations, Budhadev Bhattacharya was talking to a Salim group in Indonesia.

There is a place called Nandigram in Vrindavan. There is a 10,000-acre chemical hub in Nandigram. So, while this is going on, there is a declaration that Salim Group will be given land of 10,000 acres and an SCZ will be built there, a chemical hub. Now, the Nandigrams also start protesting. The Nandigrams say that they have never spoken to us.

What land is this? Where is this land from? And who is being given it? We don't have any conversation with them. So CPM thought that Nandigram is a bit more, there are some more Khejuri places next to Nandigram. That was the stronghold of CPM. They thought that they will manage there. Singur is a bit better. No one will even chew there.

They are their own cadres. But protests start happening in Nandigram. In fact, the villagers there cut off the entire access to that village. They don't let anyone enter. Then a police goes in the middle and not just the police, again as I said, in Bengal politics, the government is the party and the party is the government.

So if the police is going, then the CPM people will also be there. You can take that for granted every time. Right? So the police goes and the CPM people go along. Bullets are fired, misbehavior with women, rape is done in fact. Many people are, in fact. In fact, 14-15 people are killed. Later, when investigation is done, it is said

that the bullets used are not police bullets. That keeps on snowballing. So, slowly, I think Singur starts in June. In 2006, Nandigram happens. This keeps on going. There is another angle in Nandigram. Nandigram is very heavily Muslim populated, right? Who generally were supporters of the CPM till then, right? So, in a way, this also starts becoming a narrative that they are doing this against Muslims. And in the midst of this, there is an incident, a case of Reznabur Rehman comes up. Just a couple of months next. And all of this are linked. Look at how. In 2006,

the report of the Sachar Committee comes up. What was the. In 2006, the Sachar Committee report came out. Sachar Committee was to examine the socio-economic conditions of the Muslims in India. And this report says that the condition of Muslims in India is worse than that of Dalits. Right? And even in that, their condition is the worst in Bengal. So, it was so revelatory in a way that, what have they done for us in all these years? Congress being at the center and they being in the state, why should we keep supporting them?

So, we lose their vote bank. So, very interestingly, you will see that many people from CPM also joined the TMC, joined the TMC. They joined the protest. The communist and extremist versions, like the Maoist groups, who believe in violence, they started supporting TMC against CPM.

So, their own people, who were ideologically extreme, they all supported TMC. They supported TMC and that group against the CPM government. So, ideologically, it started becoming a narrative They started supporting TMC. They started supporting TMC and that group against the CPM government. So, it started becoming a narrative of ideology. That if we support this worker and this, we will be in the lap of the industrialists. So, now when such a narrative will be formed, then how can you protect yourself?

Right? So, Singur happened, Nandigram happened. And then, in fact, after a few days, there is a area called Lalgarh, which I was telling you about, the Jungle Mahal, connected to the Jharkhand border. So, there is a factory involved there too. A Jindal Steel factory was going to be set up in Salbani, of 500 or 5000 acres.

So, from there, Budhadev Bhattacharya and at that time, the Steel Minister, Ram Vilas Paswan and Jiten Prasad were returning from the Salmani factory after inaugurating the facility. When they were returning, a landmine blast occurred. They survived, but their convoy's jeep was hit by the blast. Then Maoists say that they did it. They accept it.

They take responsibility for it. So, what the government does is, it carries out massive rep repression on them in the entire area, in the region of

Lalgad.

Now, the problem I told you about in the Naxalites is that identification is very difficult. So, when there is repression, many times, people who are not Naxalites are also repressed with the actual Naxalites. Civilians also.

Exactly.

So, there are many, and generally, there will be tribals. Mostly you will see in Bengal, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, 90% tribals in Naxalites.

Right?

Because mostly have-nots are coming from there. So, in that repression, the Naxalites who were killed, many tribals were also killed. Plus, there was repression in a way. The whole narrative became that

this is a government against the tribal population and have-nots kicked them against the government. It's a repressive government. So, if you look at it continuously, from 2006 onwards, back to back events. Exactly. And they could not recuperate from that. First, the narrative was lost. And then they made one mistake after another.

And that's why, from 2006 to 2011, I think they lost the battle. Plus, Mamata was a part of the UPA government. She became the Railway Minister. She did a lot of work for the railways in Calcutta and West Bengal. She worked a lot for the metro there. She worked a lot for the railways.

So, she also understood that from the other side, from the center, I should keep working and showing that I can be from the other side as well. Constructive side as well. So, it looked like this girl, Mamata, has made the government bow its head.

She has made big industrialists run away.

She has forced them to take back. So that narrative built that she is no lesser than any of those communist stalwarts. So the face of the Chief Minister has started to be seen by that person.

She has a lot of power.

Yes.

And that's how it started.

Yeah.

And then in the campaign in 2011.

In 2011, you will see that in 2009 there were Lok Sabha elections. CPM lost some of its most secure seats. At that time, there were Panchayat elections. It also lost in that. So, almost by 2011, anybody who was on the ground had started feeling. It's been 34 years, so it's hard to imagine.

But it was very impartial. It was obvious that Mamata was going to come into power now.

So, okay. First was that people started hearing about these back-to-back series of events. People started thinking that CPM, which she used to stand on, is no longer the case. Now she is with the industrialists. Mamata, on the other hand, people started thinking that she is ours.

She is on the ground, she is a street, she is very vocal. She has made big governments and big people kneel down. She is also powerful. And she is not even flashy. So she is one of us. So she was genuinely being seen as helping people.

So she was a rising figure. But you said that CPM was there for 34 years. And for 34 years, their power was very strong. And there was violence, political violence. Were people not afraid to vote for Mamata?

Exactly.

That's a very good question. So you will see extreme political violence in the 2011 elections. In fact, whenever you see a slight rise in power in Bengal, violence increases. For example, you are seeing a lot of violence in Bengal, political violence. You saw a lot of violence in the last election. Because the BJP is posing a challenge to TMC. It's a matter of winning or losing. But if you start seeing a little fear,

then it happened at that time too. So you will still hear the BJP campaign, shut up, shut up. What does this mean? You don't have to say it, but you have to vote finally. The context of this is that you can't speak in Bengal

as long as they are in power. So you can't speak. There are so many videos available on the net these days wherein if a flag is raised of another party, if a slogan is raised, if a vote is casted. It happened just now, after the Lok Sabha elections. Somebody voted for BJP, they came back to their house, the husband was pulled out, he was killed. Multiple such instances all over the place.

And what does the state do?

State is a complicit.

But it says something, it does something. Will the police do their job?

Will the police do their job? Nothing.

It's just...

So, the police are doing their job.

In today's world, the world has moved so much forward. The world is watching, it's on social media. And hence the criticism.

Everything is there. Hence, nowadays, that's why. And they still kill someone so easily, openly, and the work goes on. See, it will be a little difficult in cities, but in the villages right inside, right? The media reach, which we believe, is up to cities, up to tier 2. It is completely until the end for consumption, but to get information from there, it is still a little disconnected, tier 3, tier 4, and the villages. consumption to And hence, they will be… Second, what I said, that their cadre,

it is about their life and death. They know that if they leave the power, they will lose the money, that cut money, that syndicate that is going to be lost. So, the way someone reacts

to losing their job, that passion comes, and hence that violence comes. I am talking about CPM, TMC. It's the same. to you go, we will promote TMC internally, no one will raise their voice for CPM. If you raise your voice openly, you will get beaten up. In colleges, in clubs.

Internally, means internally.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Okay, so that's silently happened and then? Absolutely. What is the condition of CPM today?

They are almost, so they won zero seats the last time.

Zero.

Zero. So, CM is over. How many BJP's did you win last time? 78. Congress? Congress, zero.

And TMC?

100 and, I am a little confused, 34 or something like that. They won a full majority, of course. No, it was more, TMC had more. I think it was around 170. TMC was done.

Yeah, yeah. One sided majority. No coalition, no one. So CPM almost dead now.

Almost dead now. In Bengal, they are only surviving in other countries. They have just left Tripura. The government was there in Tripura. Only surviving in Kerala as of now. Otherwise, they are dead.

And will they be back in Bengal? Never.

Never? Why?

I don't want to say never. See, communism as a concept, you will see it all over the world. When it came, I said that it had so many emotions. It seemed so idealistic. It seemed like a good principle. Because it's very easy to abuse capitalism.

Because it has a lot of flaws in capitalism. But at the end of the day, free markets is what generally works across the world. And wherever there are free markets, there is prosperity. And not a single communist country in the world is either prosperous or democratic. Not a single one. You cannot call China a communist now. It has become the world's largest capitalist now.

What is of communism there? The biggest factories, industries are there. as a concept it cannot survive. Now when Mamata Banerjee is a leader of people,

people support her, then what happens?

Initially I would say, when she came, she focused on certain things, on infrastructure, on Calcutta generally, upkeep of Calcutta. See Calcutta is a city, I don't know if you have been to Calcutta. I have been to Calcutta many times.

So I don't know what your opinion of Kolkata is but for the city that it was as the capital of like the eastern hemisphere to the city that it is now, it's very sad to be honest. Infrastructurally, industries, you know, companies.

Why haven't they been able to revive it since 2011?

I'm coming to that. So, it was in the communist rule. So, after 2011, she has tried to revive it in certain ways. Now, the problem is, in the revival, she worked on infrastructure. So, she worked on lighting, infrastructure, bridges, roads, etc. But what happens for industries, it needs a very long term vision. In a state, and especially the leader who drove away the industrialists, in a way, right? So just state may, or cost just leader may, industrialist will have to buy it.

And hence, industries can make it to stability, political stability, law and order, industry-friendly practices. I'm here, not what cool kid. I'm not cautioning the side will look at the industries from support carrying a worker to take a look at the green.

So I'm not going to be able to get a guy. And on second hand, let's say Andhra and... What are the Andhra people saying? That we are going to give 500 acres of land to DCS in one rupee. That shows the intent. Right? It's possible that he won't be a populist. Someone will make a narrative of him that

the government is of a capitalist and is giving him land for free. But they know that his longer term returns are going to be so high. They are making a quantum valley. Now, there will be no such thing in Calcutta. In Calcutta, they will say with four conditions, you come. No industrialist will come. Because they have got so many options. Karnataka, Andhra, Maharashtra and Gujarat are pulling him. Who will give him more soaps, tax rebates, land. So why would he invest in a place where he has these four conditions? He knows that he cannot be trusted upon for this.

And hence, the revival does not happen, which is, yeah, the revival happens. It happens in such slow paces that it will take 100 years for the revival. Now, just look at per capita income. When Calcutta, Bengal became independent,

per capita income, you will see in the first economic survey, to Odisha was at Rs. 54 during independence. Today, it's at Rs. 88. It's ahead of Bengal. And it is just difference of intent.

Why?

In Bhubaneswar. Now, it's not a big city, right? But whatever work they did, software parks opened up in Bhubaneswar. Everyone has a small office there. TCS, Infosys, Wipro, everyone has an office there.

They made a huge stadium for hockey. In fact, the hockey championship was held there. A state which is a very small state, there is nothing there, minerals will be less than Bengal, agriculture is less, coastal state, cyclone always comes.

There, they have, you know, commendable, they came to Rs. 88 from Rs. 54.

True.

They have not been able to.

So, what else is the problem? First is, they are not able to attract investors. But there are many benefits for investors. Because if your industry is export led, then West Bengal is a very strategic location. There is a deep water port there.

You can access the entire eastern market from there. And energy, because coal and everything is available in excess.

Correct.

So to produce energy, you can buy cheaper resources. So, bunch of things. Correct. Plus, Bengal labor is one of the cheapest.

Correct.

So, see, what happens in industries, it's an optimization problem of a lot of costs.

Okay.

So, now you will see that there are a lot of costs. Okay? So, right now, you will see that there are a lot of industries whose plant is in Chennai, right? And that material is being consumed in Bihar or Bengal. So, what is the loss of that? Transportation cost, right? If my high value is good, if I have a car, then the cost of my car is so high that the transportation cost does not affect it. In some products, the percentage may be a little more. Let's say my transportation cost is 2% of the entire product. So, I will say that I will keep the price of 100 at 102. So, I have a loss of 2%.

I was making it there, so what problem do I have to see? So, I can see that I am saving 2 rupees. Labor will save another rupee. Suppose, if it is mineral based, it will save another 2 rupees. based. So now the choice is between 97 and 102. But I can see that producing in 97, it is possible that after 6 days, 4 people come and say that we need 5000 rupees for chanda. I can tell my staff quarters that if they

have to face daily law and order issues, then I won't be able to bring in talent from outside. Because they will say that I am not working in Kolkata? I'm not working in Singur. I won't be able to bring in talent from outside. And a host of these other problems, stability problems, I don't trust your government.

What policies will it bring in the future? So I'll be fine with Rs. 102. Because I have a stable job here. I know I won't want that 97 rule. But didn't they change the TMC?

This syndicate Raj, cut money.

Not at all, in fact. Very interesting. Because you will see, the TMC, CPM was at least a cadre-based party. Right? Very disciplined cadre-based. And whatever slogans you put, from top to bottom, it will be the same, of Lal Salam. TMC is more a person-based party. Meaning? Mamata Banerjee's party.

In fact, ideologically if you try to place TMC, you won't be able to place it. In the left, right, center, what is its ideological broader principle? It's a very person-driven party. In fact, you will read in many places that Mamata Banerjee herself says, I don't have a problem with leftist ideology. In fact, I believe in leftist ideology.

It is the left party in Bengal that I have a problem with. In fact, you will see many times that when they were protesting in Singurnandi Gram, the songs of the communists, of the opposition, they used to sing, the Trinamool ones. So, ideologically, they're very… They have fought elections with Congress as well. They have also been in the government of Vajpayee ji. Understand this. So, ideologically, they are very flexible.

And hence, you will see that there has never been a party based on cadre. It's more of a… Like, there is a party of Lalo ji in Bihar. There is no cadre. Lalo ji, long live. End of story. So hence when they came in power also, now they understand that they have come in power

because there was the CPM's opposition, Mamata Aza Face, it was more of a people's movement. Understand this. Like how did you come in power in Delhi? It was not because of a cadre. It was a people's movement. Everybody considered themselves to be a part of that movement.

Yes.

Right? And hence she came in power. But she realized that to remain in power, now she would need a dedicated cadre. So, how will it be made? So, they said that it is almost impossible to make a cadre and to defeat CPM in a cadre war. They are well trained. They have ideological commitment.

They started in India in 1925. So, there is a learning and experience curve for so many years. So, she said that it is difficult to beat him with his character. So, what you do is, use the model he was using. Now, what did he do? A lot of people switched to the same model that was in CPM.

Of course. They didn't come.

Right?

So, she said, I'll not disturb this equilibrium. So, the local clubs where CPM used to sit, the TMC took over. So the fights at home will be resolved there. The CPM is being resolved by the TMC. It's possible.

The man is the same.

The men are the same.

Exactly.

The badge is different.

Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly.

So nothing has changed?

That's what I am saying. As a structure, political structure on the ground, not really.

So, cut money syndicate still works.

In fact, now it has come into prominence. So, if you follow the cut money syndicate generally, it is very interesting. I think there was a lot of fuss around the last elections. All the cadres were saying that cut money is defined. If you get 1.25 lakhs in PM Awas, then 20,000 is defined. In fact, there is a scheme, a Somo-Bhyati scheme,

in which if a poor person dies, his family gets 2000 rupees for his last rites. 200 rupees is fixed in that. The money of Mandrega, in which the worker worked for 300 rupees, in the end of the day, 20-30 rupees will be deducted. to to stay here. He has to stay there. Right? So, in fact, very interestingly, when this was getting very heated, Mamata Banji publicly said, whoever has taken cut money, return

it, otherwise it won't be good. And there's a video, you search for it, where there's a spiritual leader of hers, he had collected around 2.25 lakh rupees from everyone in Manrega after taking cut money. So, he is returning it and he has made a video to show his goodness. That I am returning the cut money.

His man.

His man. And one of our MPs.

Accepting that I am taking.

I am taking. I am returning. I have so much goodness in me. Look, I have returned it. Mamta Di said so. And the MP of that party, Mumtaz Dikhi, said, you are getting the cut money back from the lower caste people. What about the cut money that has been given to the upper caste people? So, cut money is what drives her cadre as well. And same syndicates, understand this. When the CPM said that when New Town was being built,

we built it around 2006. Today, the same syndicates, if you want to open a restaurant there, if you want to run a factory there, if you want to solve any dispute there, if someone is building their house normally, then the club owner will have to go and say,

I am building a house here, so you guys can see, there is no problem. So, he will say, okay, you are building a house, so my son Rahul. Rahul will tell you. Absolutely. His rate is his own. His rate is his own.

Where will you go?

So, that system is still sustaining their cadres and hence that cadre is still as aggressive as they are, as they were. So, what has changed since 2011? Mamata didi has come in place of Jyoti Basu and Buddha Dev. People have changed. If you remove 34 years, you get an establishment. And you bring a new thought, a new party. So, something must have changed.

Industries came, state progressed, city infrastructure changed, people got a lot of help. Migrants who used to come from Bangladesh, they are no more. That is evaluate the performance when you're involved in it. So many times, hence, like people ask a lot of questions, if there was a government like this, if it was Hitler, why did people support him? And there are so many examples in the world.

Like people kept choosing the worst leaders for years. In Bihar, everyone says, why did Lalu stay in power for 15 years? If he was so bad. So a lot of voting happens on narrative, emotions. It's an emotional process voting. Understand this. It's not a logical process. And if you go, someone else will give you counter arguments that the rest of the country is very unequal, and that's why it's okay even if it's less. Now fight it. In fact, data says that if you look at Calcutta, Calcutta used to be a city where there was a lot of inward migration.

All the way to the east at one time. So you go to a very small place. Now when you listen to songs, especially songs from that side, songs from Bhojpuri or Udiya, Piya has gone to Kolkata to work.

Right?

And when he went abroad, he went to Rangoon. He went from Kolkata to Rangoon. So, the entire region, North East, Bangladesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, East UP, Odisha, they all used to go to Calcutta to work. Calcutta was the hub of inward migration. Yes, everyone used to come to work. People were attracted to it. Today, Calcutta has net outward migration.

More people go out than come in. Correct.

Then, next. Now, one of the big issues that we keep hearing is Bangladesh. Do you think there is a relation with West Bengal?

So, you will see that Bangladesh was separate when East Pakistan was separate. It was the larger Bengal region. Right. So, culturally, you will see that it was always one piece, one province, one state. In fact, when the Britishers separated Bengal for the first time in 1905, in East and West Bengal, by saying administrative convenience and all of that, there was a lot of opposition. They were trying to essentially divide the Bengali population on religious lines, so that the nationalism that was being raised against the British, is weakened.

Right? So, according to the distribution. And then, the Britishers actually had to reunite Bengal in 1911. Right? Then, as a punishment, they said, but the country's capital is being made Delhi from Calcutta. So, if you look at it as a region, it has always been very integrated.

Now, when finally the country was divided, East Pakistan was also formed. to In fact, violence also happened a lot. You know, Noh Khalifa riots and all of those, you would have heard. But still, there was a Bengali connection in that. So, as soon as East Pakistan became Pakistan, there was a protest because West Pakistan makes Urdu the official language of Pakistan. So, there was a protest that Bengali should also be included in it because it's a second language, which they did not agree. In 1952, a huge movement started in Bangladesh against it.

And there were riots that day. The police were shooting. Three students were killed. It is declared a National Mother Language Day by them. And Bengal also starts celebrating that. Later, in fact, it is made an International Mother Language

Day. And till today, it is celebrated in West Bengal and in Bangladesh. When Bangladesh became independent, Bengal was the one which celebrated the most. The Mukti Vahini Puri that was made, it went from here, from India.

So, it felt like our own brothers are getting liberated. And this was across. Rabindranath Tagore was the common, you know, there was a national anthem written here and there. So many common connections culturally, Bengali cinema,

language same, right? So it was always like, we celebrate each other's wins. When Amartya Sen won the Nobel Prize, in fact, in 1998, if I'm not wrong, he visited Bangladesh first. And Sheikh Hasina gave him honorary citizenship

of Bangladesh and gave them passport and all of Bangladesh celebrated. So many such examples. This has been the case up until I would say 2-3 years ago. Not to say there have not been riots and religious cases and so on, but broadly this has been the case. So that's why you will see that a lot of infiltration has been happening among Bengali

migrants. So, there is no big narrative against them. Okay, there is a little bit of discontent, but that narrative will not be made. This has been the case till 2-3 years ago. So, essentially to say, the first identity that they believe in is Bengali first. What has happened in the last 2-3, after Sheikh Hasina, you know, got dethroned? The protests that started in Bangladesh, those were most on the religious lines, right?

The persecution that started, those were on the religious lines. That was one. Second, they went even further. Rabindranath Tagore had a ancestral home there. They broke it by saying a curse on it. Now, this struck the Bengali people, language, connection, you know, and there are multiple such became the national poet of Bangladesh. His Jainism is still celebrated in West Bengal. Till now. His name is still celebrated in the University of Assam.

Now a new airport is being built, he is being named and it is being done in his name. Till this level, you know, there was unifying force, which has gotten broken in fact, right? Because right now, what Bangladesh is going through is that religious fanatism

is slowly changing into theocracy. And that is why the Bengali first identity is becoming the Muslim first identity. And the people here are feeling that now I cannot reciprocate

this. So now, this is divided. But the situation of Bangladeshi who come to India, is that gotten better or worse?

So the problem is,

illegal immigrants.

The problem is, if you see the entire border of East, the border of Bengal with Bangladesh, the total border of Assam Bangladesh is about 4000 km. The total border of Bengal with Bangladesh is about 2200 km. The problem is that the border is never as fortified as the west. So, there have always been migrations.

In 1947, in 1971, when the Mar-Card riots happened, people came. And settled in the border areas. Then they went to different places from those border areas. Gradually, you know, it started to fortify. Gradually, there are floods. In fact, the central government's statement on the floor of the house is that now only

550 kilometers of the border is left. The rest is all done. It is fenced now. In that 550 kilometers, 100 kilometers is unfenceable. the of the house is of these people as possible. Because all of these people vote for Mamata Banerjee. If you see today, in the last census, in 2011 census, Muslims were 27% in Bengal. If you go to the latest, 30% will be crossed. All these people, never vote for BJP. Logically, they will not go. They have been going to TMC,

they will go. Which gets augmented by anybody who is an illegal infiltrator. Right. So, now it is being said that Mamata does not want them to go. Right. The Centre is saying that let us fence. Then, the SIR that was going on, which is to identify.

What is happening in SIR? Why was Mamata Bannerjee so strongly against it?

So, what is the SIR process?R says that the election commission says that in the voter roll, if you fill in form 6, your name is added. That I am a new voter, I filled in form 6, I gave it. If you filled in form 7, that I have moved from here, I have relocated permanently somewhere else, cut my name. So, your name cut your name. But until you fill out Form 7, your name will not be cut. So, why would anyone fill out a form and give it to you?

Who is so worried that they will not give it to you because they are lazy or will not give it on purpose? So, no one fills out Form 7. And anyway, who goes into such a government process? So let's check it out. So hence, in this SIR process, they are saying, I'll verify that this person is still alive or not. Because I don't have any mechanism to check until you tell me. So let's check it out.

So hence, in this SIR process, they are saying, I'll verify that this person is still alive or not. So let's check it out. So hence, in this SIR process, they are saying, I'll verify that this person is still alive that whether these people are still there or not. Because I don't have any mechanism to check until you tell me. So, let's check it out. So, hence, in this SIR process, they are saying, I'll verify if these people really exist in these places.

So, the list you gave, let's say there are 10,000 people. Are there 10,000 people or not?

And individually. So, as we identify, I will keep verifying. If there is a problem in identification, then either you produce one of those iCards, the 11 iCards that we have, or you tell us your legacy. It might be related to someone, a family member, a parent, a sibling, or the chief will write it down.

This is the process. By virtue of the very fact that people don't give their names to be removed, a lot of people, you will see, have been relocated and their names are left behind. Secondly, a lot of people who die, their names are left behind. Now, the last SIR was in 2003-04.

Think about how many people have died after that. So those numbers are so inflated. How many people have died in that in 20 years? You think. You don't know. We don't know. So, first of all, the people who died, who got permanently relocated, and third, the people who have multiple voter cards.

Why? I got it made here, I got it made there. Some people have four, some have five. I don't care where I am. I am saying I am voting at the same place. But it's wrong anyway. people and get it cleaned up. So, before the Bihar election, they started that I will do

SIR, I will clean up. So, in Bihar, they cut about 65 lakh names. 11-12% voters, they said, are either dead, permanently relocated or duplicated. Right? So, the Bihar election was very different that people's names are being used, their voting rights are being used and all of that. But it did not build as a narrative. Because after going to the ground, we were not getting anything whose name was cut off. Because they give us a one-month window. Suppose it is cut off by mistake. So, fill us in Form 6 and give it again. We will add it. That yes, we exist.

Okay.

Okay. So, after that, he said that we are doing SIR in 12 states. Now, in the three union territories of the nine states, Bengal comes in that. No, in other states, like UP, there are many states. We may not even know which states are being cut. But most of all, Halla is being cut in Bengal.

Why?

It's interesting. Whose names will be cut? The names will be cut by either the dead, or the permanently relocated, or the duplicate, or the illegal. Correct? So, we will to identify it. If someone has a problem, we have to tell

them that I am this person, I live here. If you live there, you will know from the locality that it is an illegal society. So, we won't be able to tell the lineage, we won't be able to produce the I-cards. Right? So, that's why you will see in Bengal. Secondly, you see like this. You take the census of 1951. The proportion of the Muslim the population. So, it's obvious, you know, that there are illegal migrants living in. So, as soon as the SIR happens, many people's names will be cut off, which is illegal. So, hence that pushback.

In fact, you must have seen in the middle, many such videos have come from such and such colonies, they are going back to Bangladesh, to the border, then the whole crowd is there to go back. Right? So, hence this whole pushback. But on the other hand, there is another interesting data. The percentage of names cut in Bihar or UP should be more than that in Bengal. In the country, the average number of names cut in these 12 states is 13%. 13% names

are dead or permanently relocated. In UP, 18% names have been removed. In Bengal, only 7.5% have been removed. So, it is also being said that local officers may have been complicit in not being as... And what's the controversy around Vande Mataram. Yes. So Vande Mataram was written by Bankim Chandra Chatterjee in 1875. So it's been 150 years. You'll see that Vande Mataram was also

a novel by Anand Math during his time in freedom. It became very famous. He mentioned it for the first time. And in the whole freedom movement, if there was a war cry or a rallying cry, it would be Vande Matram. If you watch movies or documentaries, you will see that.

In fact, in 1905, when Bengal was partitioned, the most crowded place was Vande Matram. So, during the whole period of freedom, Vande Matram was a very common unifying rallying cry. Now, Vande Matram is a poem which is in six stanzas. Now what happened during nationalist movement, when Vande Mataram started being sung, Muslim League objected to it. That later on, Hindu Goddesses are clearly mentioned in it.

So, in 1937, Congress had a session in Faisbur, and there it was decided that to maintain the neutrality, only the first two legs will be sung, in which there is no mention of Hindu or Devi or God. The remaining four legs were removed. Later, when we became free, the constitution was being made, so it was decided that there will be a national song.

Jan Gana Bana Rashtra Gaan will be sung, this will be the national song. And both of them will be given equal status. This is Rajendra Prasad, in fact, announced equal status. Although there are no protocols for this, like there are for the Rashtragaon. But equal status for both. Now, come 2025. So, central government said, we will celebrate 150 years of Vandematram being there.

And what we are saying is, we will now sing the full song. Because, curtailing those four paras is curtailing the essence and the heart of that national song. Right? So, this was also an understanding that the first two paras have to be sung. There was no rule on that. So, if someone wants to sing, he can sing six. So, they are now saying, why don't we sing six? Right? Because this is a step of secularism. Whoever opposed it, they went away with their country. So, what isali TMC MPs, especially when there was a debate in the Parliament,

they were very, you know, this is ours. The problem is, see, and it is very subtle, right? Vande Mataram is, I bow down to my motherland, right? In the motherland, a problem arises, which is a Muslim section. Why? They say, we do not bow down to anybody else than my supreme God. Right? Toh they say I'll not sing Vande Mataram.

Vis-a-vis the nationalist, they say Motherland is not a religion, it is a figurative figure. Who we are considering so sacrosanct, we are saying, you know, ki bow down to you, right? So, there should not be a problem in saying Vande Mataram. But then many politicians who will say to the other party, no, we will not say Vande Mataram. So, this keeps on happening, right? Which generally should not happen. I feel that if the national song is accepted,

like our constitution was accepted, national song was accepted, so it should keep going on.

What is Bengal saying? Mamata is against this?

Again, yes. So, now she has a very substantial vote bank of people who don't like Vandematram.

So, she is saying that they won't do this.

They won't do it. So, in that, like the Prime Minister was giving a speech, so he called Bankim Chandra Chatterjee as Bankim Da. So, why did he call, bunk him da? Meaning, he is not a respectable person. He started debating on that. He is not your bunk him da.

He said, bunk him babu, maybe. Right? Prime Minister. Because in different states, there are different kinds of respect. Like in Bihar, they say babu, Shri Krishna babu. So maybe he said bunk him babu or bunk him da. They started, how can you call him this?

This is disrespectful, useless, in fact, debates.

Why do our leaders still fight on these things and not on country as a growing growth, economic policies, world making it a tackle? What is America doing, China doing, Russia doing?

In case I'm going to get a hold of you. Narratives. Because again, the vote that comes in, the people who vote, and I've seen it personally in the field, when you talk about education, technology, industries. I'm giving a very simple example.

There's an industry in my area. I go there and I sit there and protest that all the workers should get their rights. Then everyone will become my friends, my supporters. And I go there to increase on the platform that all the workers should get their rights. Then everyone will become my friends, my supporters. And if I go there and increase the output of the industry and talk about all this, then nobody would care of that.

How its capacity expansion is, how more people are employed in it. Nobody cares about that. So, you get the politicians that you deserve. I know this is brutal, but that's the truth. The voters will get what the politicians want. They will get what the politicians want to talk about.

So, the voters will say, you talk about education and health, I don't want to talk about anything else. So, from tomorrow, politicians will start doing that.

We are not wanting that.

I am not saying not wanting that, but we don't think about it. We get swayed by so many superficial issues. I said that, right? So many emotional issues.

Right?

What happens in Bombay? Half a day Maratha, non-Maratha and this goes on. But you can talk about everything else culturally, but why can't you speak about industries?

But people start voting in Mumbai. Exactly. On the basis of development.

Exactly. So, that's a good change. That's what I'm saying. But Mumbai is an urban region. Like BMC, we saw what happened.

Yes. Yes.

People are giving in hope.

And in the hope that we need change, we need construction, Mumbai is getting worse.

We wanted to change.

They have set a very good example. I'm saying, if this continues, then you will see that people will start following it in other areas as well. What happens in Tamil Nadu? The more they abuse Hindi, North India, they will call it laborer, they will call it Sanatan Dharma. The more they abuse, their vote bank keeps on consolidating. But Tamil Nadu as a state is thriving, in terms of growth and GDP. I agree.

Contribution is very strong. I agree.

People are earning money there. Per capita is improving.

I agree. But it's just not one party. Also understand this. There have been successive governments. AIDMK and DMK have been in it. Both have been alternating until the last time.

I'm not saying which government is doing good. I'm saying that even if they do this war, still, they are bettering their state. And they are enriching. If you look at the data, Telangana, AP, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, this belt is very good. It is India's belt. It is not the strongest contribution in our GDP. AP, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, this belt, it's a very good belt for India. It's the strongest contribution in our GDP.

I agree.

So what happens, Raj, is the narrative that's going on today, I won't see its effect today, or in the numbers of last year. I'll see its effect four, five years later. So what you're doing today, what difference does it make to me? Tamil Nadu is growing a lot. So, it's a long process. So, you're reaping the benefits of the reforms of last 10 years. I understand this. True. So, at this point, I think we have to start thinking about the next decision of the factory.

I think we have to start thinking about the next decision of the factory. I think we have to start thinking about the next decision of the factory. I think we have to start thinking about the next decision of factory, which will be taken by the company, they will start thinking about it. It's a long process. So you are reaping the benefits of the reforms of last 10 years. Understand this.

True.

So, at this point, because we are talking about Bengal, there are no atrocities happening there? What happens?

Political violence is surviving only in Bengal, in the entire country.

So that is one. But during the, during five years, do you think the state is functioning very well? Because they are not able to attract investment. That's one. So, they are not able to grow. That is we already spoke. The income of the people there is not increasing. It is decreasing according to the country. That is the third. But in terms of crime, are women safe?

So again, there is no outlier.

There was an outlier event happened, on women's safety.

Yes, there have been a few incidents recently. In fact, in RG Kaur Hospital, a postgraduate medical student, in fact, she was raped and murdered by, in fact, one of the person who was employed there itself. Now, there has been an infection in Durgapur,

with a medical student. The sad part there is, in fact, in both cases, Mamata Banerjee responds, that girls should not go out at night. Or should not go out alone. Someone should be taken out with them. So, there you do not feel that sensitivity that should come from a chief minister and

that to a women chief minister. When a woman starts saying this, in both cases, again, when you start looking at everything from such a political angle, you are not able to decide between right and wrong. Then you start thinking, oh, the RGK army is doing a lot of halla, they are protesting, they want to defame my government. So, that way I agree, the neutral stance that should be there in these cases, that is missing.

That is also not there.

No, no, no.

But how can a politician say this?

That a girl should not go out? Okay, so it may sound strange, but she is again speaking the language of the wider mass.

But how is she helping the wider mass?

That the women in their own homes are unsafe. in speaking the language of the wider mass. But how is it helping the wider mass?

No. That the women in their own homes are unsafe.

Correct.

If they go out at night, they shouldn't go out. How is it pleasing to the wider mass?

When you have this conversation with the wider mass, you will get this comment very often.

They are just saying their own words.

True.

What they think already, they are agreeing and... Correct. She is speaking their language. is no one is going to support. And that also saves our government from the embarrassment. We are not at fault in this.

What about the recent smuggling case I heard? There was cattle smuggling.

It has been going on since forever. So, cattle smuggling. So, see, what is in India, cattle sacrifice or butchering, everyone has different state laws. So in some states, it is completely banned. Cattle slaughter, in some, you know,

it is banned with some conditions. For example, buffaloes are not banned. In some, it is banned after a certain age. So above 15 years, because it is not as functional, then you can slaughter. There are different laws like this. In Bengal if it is above 15 years, because it is not as functional, then you can slaughter. There are different laws like this. In Bengal, it is not banned. On the other hand,

there is a lot of demand in Bangladesh because they eat beef. Now, since there is no ban in Bengal and there is a big border, which is a porous border, it is very easy to smuggle cattle from here. So, Bengal's cattle will be there, but the other Hindi heartland cattle where slaughter is banned, they can be transported and smuggled across this border. And they'll earn some money.

Now, ideally, it is banned. But the problem is we have a porous border. We have rivers on the border, multiple rivers on the border. In fact, there are very good mechanisms in which they will bring the cattle near the border and put them in the river. They can swim. They will swim in the flow and go.

But how will they know which cattle is for whom and for whom it is going? Who has given the money? So they will mark the location and name on it. That this cattle is for this person and this person. It has been sold. So it's marked.

It reaches there. They pull it out. Secondly, there should have been processes to stop smuggling on that side as well. So, process-wise or policy-wise, it's banned. But if caught, there is a small fine of Rs. 200. So, essentially…

So, if you smuggle cows, there is a fine of Rs. 200? Yes. If a smuggled cow is caught, I am talking about Bangladesh. Right? So, there should have been a ban there too. So, that ban is there, that is why there is a fine of 200 rupees. So, that ban is not there essentially.

Correct? So, they sent it from here, took it from there, and he deducted 200 rupees, and essentially it is legalized. And that's why across that border, you'll see a heavy amount of cattle smuggling.

I have a question.

If you were made the CM of Bengal, what would be the in so many days, when a person, an organization, a state, sleeps for 70 years, it is very difficult to wake them up. So it is not just about industries, now understand this. It is not that if industrialists come and start an industry, it will be solved. The entire work culture has been affected. So today in Calcutta or Bengal, it is not just government. They see that the people are in such a slumber. So, if you go to Calcutta and you talk to people, in fact, you will see it in taxis first. I have been to taxis wherein the taxi driver

picked me up, I had to go somewhere, he stopped in the middle and said, you will not go beyond this. Why? We will not go. Why? We won't go. Why? We won't go, bro. No reason.

No reason.

We don't want to go. We won't go. This is not one instance I'm saying. This is so common.

Right?

I have been in taxis where I was not feeling well. A friend had come to pick me up. So we sat in the taxi. We started going. I was just recovering from COVID. Very bad lungs. Now, this is not a problem of industries not being there.

What was the problem? The problem was that when they were doing this earlier, and if there were any such issues, then let's say you were opposing, then 10 taxi drivers would come and stand with you. How would you oppose?

Now, they are affiliated to a union. How can you speak?

And the work order…

Exactly. Now, we've been encouraged so much for this behavior that that professional culture that you talk about, the work culture that you talk about, has had a huge impact in Bengal. Now, you can't change the culture in a day. So even now, it's a culture of eating out.

We'll eat lunch and then take a little rest. And this is Calcutta I'm speaking about. So culturally, I think that's a good thing. So again, I'm not commenting that it's good or bad. Some people will say, Bombay is bad. They don't hustle that much.

Maybe. But there, there is no such thing as hustling. Life is going on, so it's going on. It's OK. It's OK. It doesn't matter. So making that cultural change to say that this should prosper or be the center of industrialization of growth as it used to be, that's a very tough task. That's what I'm saying. Because people will have to tell that wherever we are, it's not good.

And people will never like to hear this. If you tell a native there that Bengal is not doing well, Calcutta is not no more, Rajiv But the fastest growing real estate is still 7-8 top cities of India. So, it's not a big deal. But the fastest growing real estate is still 7-8 top cities of India. So, it's not a big deal. But the fastest growing real estate is still 7-8 top cities of India.

So, it's not a big deal. But the fastest growing real estate is still 7-8 top cities of India. So, it's not stayed in four. Even if you name seven, eight top cities of India, we do not say Kolkata. But fastest growing real estate is still ahead of Kolkata at seven or eight. It is possible. What is the problem with real estate, Raj? Real estate is always a private sector driven industry. It is a game of individual demand and

supply. So, people want flats to be built in Kolkata. Anyway,. Anyway, in South Bengal, there are no other bigger cities. For example, Mumbai has Pune and Nasik. Calcutta has a steel factory, so it's a town. There are no other cities. If you go 1000 kms north, you'll find Siliguri. But these are smaller towns. So, the real estate demand will come in Calcutta. So, these are private sector driven industries. You will go to the worst growing states. You will never see the real estate prices going down.

If it is just populated properly.

Now, let's say there will be elections, fights. BJP is trying. And last time, if it has come till 78, that's commendable. That's incredible. Because an opposition has risen. But no opposition has been able to win for a very long time.

So is it the opposition's fault that they don't have the guts? Or is it the ruling party's fault that they don't let them rise?

Combination of factors. So one is that because of the political violence, the opposition is not able cannot be openly opposed due to the political violence. So, big leaders will protest and give their statements.

But somehow, they won in TMC as well. So, they were like probably…

I agree. I am saying, for both TMC and APLICABLE, you cannot openly become an opposition. In villages, you will say that you will run with the flag of BJP and make everyone sit down and explain that look, how the problem is that our kingdom is not moving forward, so the BJP should vote. No, that's not possible.

It was true for TMC as well. Secondly, again, we are talking about very complex topics. We are talking about growth, industries, technology, which is in common man's language, it is very difficult to communicate with. You are facing so many problems in a day. So, for example, a person who is going to work every day, he is thinking, my life is just like that. What difference will it make? Or what difference will it make if someone else comes? You are talking about long term.

You will say, if we come to the administration sal baad yahan industries aayegi. Toh aapka beta ko naukri milega. Nobody understands that long term prosperity. True. Right? Third, demography bohot important ho jata hai kisi state mein. Especially ek aise state mein jahan ek bohot bada vote bank bohot strongly ek party ke Right? This is true for across. Now, wherever, what is there? The Muslim population, that 30% now, and dedicated to 2MC. There's no split in that vote. So, they're starting with 30% vote in the first place.

But they have, I mean, my question is, I'm not able to understand. If any new party comes, maybe Congress, BJP or some third party, whatever, what is their stance? What do they want to bring that TMC is not giving? Because if you are saying that there is a similar situation with TMC that was in CPM and the overall culture and attitude there has died down,

then what will the new people come and change? Or what are these people bringing?

Congress, anyway, is non-existent there now. This is no more in the play. It's very clearly between TMC and BJP now. It's one-to-one. I think a broader change that needs to be brought, should be brought, can be brought, all of those, is that you take that society out of the political society.

When I say political society, wherein when the party and the government are the one and the same, and they keep benefiting, then the government will never think about a larger public. It will just think how the cadre should stay with me. If the cadre is with me, I am in government. Because my cadre in that village takes care of that village.

So you are saying that this syndicate cut system is cut.

Corruption will still be there. I am just not saying that corruption will end. What I am saying is that the power that you are legitimizing, the political system that you are making for your workers, the political workers should not have the courage to do to not want to. If the cadre is happy, then the party will remain in power. Which is very, very wrong. And what does the cadre do? The cadre, to keep his PR, that I am the president of the party, brother. I am earning from the party. I have to give an answer there. So, to give an answer, I will not let any kind of opposition in my village on the other side. The voting there should be very strong. Then I will go and tell the party that my voting is strong. So, I remain in that position. I keep earning. Government has nothing to do with them.

You will have to break the system first. Right? That happens when you start speaking about governance, which is devoid of any other interruptions, interferences. So, you will see the difference between good and bad governments. The party that comes in power, the police, like in the case of law and order, for When Nitish Kumar came, the law and order reform came because he sent half of his own MLA to jail.

So, the police, the administration starts getting a sense that he stands for, he or she stands for what is right or wrong rather than what is my party's or his party's. Now, this is the same in UP. Now, half of the workers are upset that the police are not listening to them. The day they start listening, half of them will be in their favour, half of them will And hence you need to remove that. When you start saying that governance, bureaucracy, police, then you come to industries.

You know, industries can be anything. It can be a factory, it can be a software park, it can be a service. It can be anything. But when you start saying that governance is a business, then you come to industries.

You know, you come to industries. There's a lot of things happening. All the states are growing. Now, industries can be anything. It can be a factory, it can be a software park, it can be services. Andhra is saying, we're not building a factory today. We're building a quantum valley.

Right?

That's another way of industries, right? So, they're building a quantum valley. And they're doing massively well there, thinking of 10 years down the line. So, you'll have to pick it up for the future. Right now, if I ask you, what are your plans for the next generation? No, nothing. Each to their own.

I really like AP's CM.

He's nice. He did very well with the unified Andhra then. And now with Andhra now.

Exactly.

And now Amravati, you look at it. What is he making out of it?

It's wild. And then I think, at least, a tech vision and stuff like that.

Yes.

Employment generation. At least, he talks very well. I mean, now there is proof. We have done the old one. So, you can't even say just talking.

No, no. He executes. He's serious about it. Yeah, he's serious. And He just announced something. It's a little far off. But still, the announcement is very important. If a Nobel winner wins a quantum from Andhra, he will get 100 crores. This is a very far off thing.

But STD started saying that.

Where is the state thinking? The CM said, it is so important to say that if someone wins the Nobel Prize in Gondwa, they will give 100 crores from Andhra.

My point is, you are showing where the state is thinking and what it is thinking. What is state thinking about? And where is the focus? Correct. That focus is now, yes, we will focus on social welfare. Yes, we will focus on this and, yes we will focus on this and that, but focus is towards progress.

That's the thing. Well, thank you so much sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For coming and spending time and telling us about the history of another state. Political history, today it's a lot. But thank you so much. Pleasure having you. Pleasure to be here. Next, which state will we go to? Hahaha. Every time, we will bring one state. Because I think just that one series for a lot of people in the country,

for young people like me. It will be an iconic series. We will know what our country is like. What are the guests like? Because the way you explain it is very good. Like I really...

Like Bihar was exceptionally good. You'll be amazing.

I would need to prepare a lot more.

Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. Now you have to do three things. Number one, subscribe to this channel right now. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out. Do share this episode with at least one person. Because one conversation is enough to change someone's life. I'll see you next time. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.